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FatPom

Got 404s, what next?

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I've had my Zipp 404s for about a year now. I quite like them, they ride pretty well and seem fast. Not totally blown away with the quality of the rear, that whole 'everything held in place by the skewer'  gets on my nerves because I have horizontal dropouts and if I remove the skewer, the whole cassette and freehub just comes off in my hand, which is annoying.

Anyway, apart from all that, I like them and the ability to lob 'em in the roadie as well as the P3.  If I was going to add to this, what would be the best way to go?

Zipp 808 Rear

Zipp super 9 (crazy expensive here at £1500)

HED Jet Black Disc ( £1100)

Not interested in a wheel cover. Would I notice any decent benefit from these options?  

Please spare me the 'just train more' responses. Doing that already. This would be a purchase 'just because' and yes, it's my daughter's uni fund and 'no' I don't care if she works in factory and eats Ramen for the rest of her life because I'm buying a wheel that won't win me a plastic trophy. Serious insects, blah blah, these beers taste good.:whistling:

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Hi FP

Firstly, envious. Sold my 404s and regret it. I wouldn't go the disk rear. I've had them before. Great on the flattest, non technical courses but in strong winds with some UK hills/undulations, I would go the 808 rear for sure. I've made all the mistakes and spent the dollars on the disk. People will say that in windy conditions the depth of the front matters the most but I've persevered with a disk in the wind so many times - always feeling like I'm dragging a heavy anchor around and using too much strength to ride a straight line.

go the 808

 

ps, just spent £1200 on a Tacx Neo plus an extra £8 on a bottle of red and listening to some old rhythm and blues Stevie Wonder trying to forget about it. :huh:

Edited by The Customer
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Go a disc and the Zipp disc. On the just because, an 808 is just another version of the 404 and despite all the technical mumbo jumbo, wind tunnel, but road enviro etc, the disc is the best option. My vintage, I have a pair of 440's and a Zipp 950 disc (purchased off Pauli Kiuru). Absolutely love the disc. The 440 rear is very nice, the disc is that much better again. Apart from the faster feel of the disc, there is no substitute for the sound of a disc on the road  (a true disc, no wheel covers cut it). Just love having people look around as you come up behind them, you know they've heard the disc (ah, the good old days when I would/could pass people).

The bit extra for the Zipp fades very quickly over time. In 1991 I spent nearly twice as much on my new Cannondale 3.0 series criterium frame instead of half the money on a Bundy frame, Avanti bike etc and I'm still riding it today and never regretted the extra money. I know if I settled for the Bundy 753, it would have been a nice bike but it was not what I really wanted. Would I still be riding it today, no I wouldn't be. My thoughts.

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What Bert says is the exact rationale I bought into disks originally - sound, wind tunnel stats, feel, people looking etc.

Reality is, I will never average 45kphr - where the advantages of a disk really kick in (wind tunnel tested).

Save your money - either stick with the rear 404 or get the 808 if you want it to look a little more aesthetically pleasing and serious.

Consider your ability (chances of representing the UK at the Tokyo olympics), your terrain and the adaptability to most situations.

In perfect conditions, the disk is faster - perfect conditions are as rare as hens teeth.

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Thanks both for the input. TC, good points about conditions. I deal with a combination of serious hills,  very bad roads and a crumbling back. We do get days that are windless and some of TT courses are very fast ( they aren't the ones I prefer though).

I did a duathlon a few weeks ago 5/20/5 and went 28.55 on the bike (turns out it was 18.6km, so I didn't top 40kph), that was about as perfect a day as I could get, 1degC but absolutely still.  they are like hen's teeth those days though, as you say. 

My new job is pretty full on and Mrs FP wants me to buy myself a nice birthday pressie. There are loads of ways to blow some cash but I wonder for example:   Speed/aero wise, if a 404 had a score of '0' and Super 9 had a score of '10', where on the scale would a 808 sit?

The comfort factor is not insignificant either.

Talking of regret, I have the Elite Direto trainer and do like it but have that nagging feeling I should have ponied up and bought the Neo. It's a lot of money though to just not have to deal with calibration. :lol:

Edited by FatPom

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A  disc should only be used on courses that don't have a consistent cross wind.  Their ideal use is head and tail wind and up to a certain yaw angles.

Someone with more engineering knowledge can provide more info.

 

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Guest FFF1077
1 hour ago, The Customer said:

£8 on a bottle of red and listening to some old rhythm and blues Stevie Wonder trying to forget about it. :huh:

Awesome. Sounds like a great idea to me :lol::D

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11 hours ago, FatPom said:

I've had my Zipp 404s for about a year now. I quite like them, they ride pretty well and seem fast. Not totally blown away with the quality of the rear, that whole 'everything held in place by the skewer'  gets on my nerves because I have horizontal dropouts and if I remove the skewer, the whole cassette and freehub just comes off in my hand, which is annoying.

Anyway, apart from all that, I like them and the ability to lob 'em in the roadie as well as the P3.  If I was going to add to this, what would be the best way to go?

Zipp 808 Rear

Zipp super 9 (crazy expensive here at £1500)

HED Jet Black Disc ( £1100)

Not interested in a wheel cover. Would I notice any decent benefit from these options?  

Please spare me the 'just train more' responses. Doing that already. This would be a purchase 'just because' and yes, it's my daughter's uni fund and 'no' I don't care if she works in factory and eats Ramen for the rest of her life because I'm buying a wheel that won't win me a plastic trophy. Serious insects, blah blah, these beers taste good.:whistling:

Check frame clearances for the super 9 - some of these are tight in some frames, mine (2009 vintage Zedtech version) in a P3 has about 1 mm clearance - ie will touch if aggressive out of saddle (encouragement to sit and spin - hard but consistent). Personally don't recommend going deeper than 808 on the front - to dodgy if you get a cross wind (my 1080 is sweet but....)

Spend big ( it's a huge motivator to have to justify it :) )

Keep the 404's for any really windy days.

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1 hour ago, RunBrettRun said:

Fatpom why aren't you interested in a wheel cover?  The HED Jet is basically just a wheel cover isn't it?

Yeah there's a few discs knocking about that that are spoked wheels with carbon covers, Flo are another one I think and they look like a wheel cover, hence the reason I didn't get one. And I think that's really the only downside to wheelcovers - aesthetics.

I'm 73kg and ride Zipp 900 disc and 808 in every race. I get knocked about by the 808 in strong winds, but it's not a problem.  You get used to it. It's a myth that winds and discs don't mix. I've never felt hampered by it even in shitty conditions. It has less aerodynamic drag than a spoked wheel, there's simply much less turbulence coming off a disc wheel , so is going to be faster than a rear 808 in most conditions other than perhaps hills. Aero trumps mass. And discs are actually quicker at lower speeds, a rider traveling at 30km/hr will get more time saving with a disc than a rider travelling at 40km/hr because of the higher yaw angle.

You don't have to spend big $$ on discs, loads knocking about with barely any use for $600 - $800. Or new Flo/Renn for $800.

 

 

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12 hours ago, FatPom said:

 

Zipp 808 Rear

Zipp super 9 (crazy expensive here at £1500)

HED Jet Black Disc ( £1100)

Not interested in a wheel cover. Would I notice any decent benefit from these options?  

 

Yeah don't get a wheel cover. Do you live in a hilly area or race on hills? I wouldn't want to race IM Wales with a disc I don't think!

Loads of cheap disc options, very little difference between a $700 Renn disc and a $3000 Mavic disc or even a $100 wheelcover. It comes down to, pretty much aesthetics and whether it will fit your bike or not. Some are up to 400gms lighter, I think the 900 is around 800gms, Caden's disc is one of the lightest knocking around, the HED is one of the heaviest at 1.3kg. The weight isn't a huge big deal, but if you have the choice I'd go lighter.

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Thanks all, loads to think on. Couple of answers in no particular order:

Im not thinking about the front, just the rear.

I see wheels covers and wheels like the HED as two two different things. The HED is more of a 'skin' than a cover and looks like it is meant to be there. A wheel cover on the other hand is a bit of a faff with fixtures and doesn't look good. I've already got a Renault Scenic that fills that role in my life! :D

Racing in Wales does play a big part in my year again but outside of that things are still generally hilly.

My P3 is a 2015 models and my 404s are the wide version. Not sure if there would be any issues with the Zipp disc fitting?  Will find out before committing. 

I have some leave before Easter, so will use the time to look around.

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45 minutes ago, FatPom said:

Thanks all, loads to think on. Couple of answers in no particular order:

Im not thinking about the front, just the rear.

I see wheels covers and wheels like the HED as two two different things. The HED is more of a 'skin' than a cover and looks like it is meant to be there. A wheel cover on the other hand is a bit of a faff with fixtures and doesn't look good. I've already got a Renault Scenic that fills that role in my life! :D

Racing in Wales does play a big part in my year again but outside of that things are still generally hilly.

My P3 is a 2015 models and my 404s are the wide version. Not sure if there would be any issues with the Zipp disc fitting?  Will find out before committing. 

I have some leave before Easter, so will use the time to look around.

 

Downside with something like the HED design, as in spokes is weight. My mates HED Jet was close to 1.5kg. Fast once it was going, but slow to accelerate and sounded like a drum whenever he hit a bump. Zipp 900 is 880gms, Caden even lighter. I'd say you'd feel the difference in weight in the hills. Somewhere like Busso, I don't reckon there would be much difference in performance between a 900 and HED disc. HEDs are probably the best looking discs out there, I was going to buy one, but the 900 was cheaper. 

I had a variety of rear wheels on both models of my P2, 808, 1080, Renn disc and 900 with no problems. 

Edited by zed
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Glad you’ve raised this FP, because I’ve been struggling with this for a while. The cost doesn’t bother me, but just when I think I’m all keen to buy a disc, I chicken out and say to myself “FFS just train more”.  It is quite a nice feeling passing someone in a race who has a disc too!

The Customer is the first person I’ve ever heard say they would rather not have one (having had one), so that’s interesting.  

Where I’m at currently personally is I’d like to hire/borrow a disc for a race (and practice a bit beforehand) to see what it’s like - I’m thinking of doing that for the Port Mac 70.3 in May as it is also hilly. 

If it makes a difference to me then I might make the purchase. If not then I’ll stick to my HED Jet 6 (similar to your 404’s).

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I’ll wait for Alex to come on and blow some of these misguided comments around benefits at certain speeds etc.

You need to look at what you are wanting to achieve.

Going from a 404 to an 808 will save around 20-25 seconds per 40kms. Depending on whether you are riding at 30-40km avg and yaw angle.

This saving will be slightly more from a disc especially with greater winds.

If you are wanting to look good go with whatever you think is sexier.

if you want to go fastest go disc.

if want best bang for your $ go wheel cover. Although I know you also ride TT’s so you may not be allowed to race these at  certain level of races. 

I think you will lean towards option 1.

 

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1 hour ago, IronmanFoz said:

Disc - you can't use one in Kona :)

Yeah, this was totally the first 'con' I thought of when considering a disc. :lol:

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10 hours ago, ashley_s said:

I’ll wait for Alex to come on and blow some of these misguided comments around benefits at certain speeds etc.

You need to look at what you are wanting to achieve.

Going from a 404 to an 808 will save around 20-25 seconds per 40kms. Depending on whether you are riding at 30-40km avg and yaw angle.

This saving will be slightly more from a disc especially with greater winds.

If you are wanting to look good go with whatever you think is sexier.

if you want to go fastest go disc.

if want best bang for your $ go wheel cover. Although I know you also ride TT’s so you may not be allowed to race these at  certain level of races. 

I think you will lean towards option 1.

 

It's true there is a fair bit of misunderstanding (must be a minimum speed to benefit, yaw, cross winds, hills, acceleration rates and so on) and plenty of anecdote but to be fair, the industry itself hasn't helped with its marketing.

Rear disks are faster in just about all scenarios, even for slower riders. Maybe a steep hill climb TT isn't ideal, but even then it's touch and go depending on the circumstances.

Disk covers and good tyres are the best equipment bang for wheel performance buck.

808 + cover = usable as disk all year, remove cover for Kona.

If handling is an issue with a rear disk I do have to wonder about bike set up/position but in the end, if an individual feels more comfortable about being on a particular set up, that's what they should ride. No point being out there and wasting mental energy worrying about your equipment choice.

If FP wants to buy a nice rear disk, then why not? It's not like our vice is smoking 2 packs a day. Could the money go on something else? Perhaps but so what, this is what we enjoy doing, so have some fun doing it.

There are other choices than the Zipp though, especially in the UK so look around.

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