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roxii

Running faster by running slower. Tips please

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So there is plenty of talk about doing your long stuff slowly.

For those that do this, have done it successfully and do it well what are the tricks?

How slow is slow? How do you gauge “your” slow. 

I find that trying to run slow my gait and  technique feel awkward and uncomfortable, are there any tricks to running slow? 

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12 minutes ago, roxii said:

So there is plenty of talk about doing your long stuff slowly.

For those that do this, have done it successfully and do it well what are the tricks?

How slow is slow? How do you gauge “your” slow. 

I find that trying to run slow my gait and  technique feel awkward and uncomfortable, are there any tricks to running slow? 

MJK best to answer this one.  

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Roxi,

Can't help you with the awkward technique solution but can direct you where you might find some answers.

if you want to go to the source of this idea for running training, search for Arthur Lydiard on running. Or the Lydiard running technique. Lydiard was a NZ athletics coach who, while he didn't invent this training method, he did perfect it to a point that most of today's modern training methods for running are still based on His formula. Lydiard had great success with training track and distance runners. Pat Clohessy who was Rob De Castellas coach, drew heavily from Lydiards method. I think Cloehessy described it best in finding the non awkward way to run slower than your normal rhythm in order to get faster.

hope you find the answer you are looking for.

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Hmm. Just listen to a Babbit interview where Sutto was saying with Cunnama, that he made his fast runs faster and his slow runs a lot lot slower. 

Edited by Slunnie

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Not an expert but, as a 55 year old, this worked for me....

In order to gauge Slow - In the last 3 years, best 5k 19.08, best 10k 39:02 and best half 1:26:27 ( all as runs, not off the bike ) 

During the heat of Summer in the Gulf and India, continued with 4 runs a week varying from 10k to 20k. Most were done at between 5:00 and 5:45 per k, week in, week out. Turn the Garmin on and check pace occasionally, turn off at the end. The focus was on good form and breathing, enjoying the scenery and not minding to stop and have have a few minutes break to stretch, do a few drills, push ups, bench dips and a drink.

Come race time, it was a matter of turning up the pace ( between 3:50 and 4:15 per k, depending on sessions ) 1 month out and it didn't take long to get up to speed as there was a good base and I stayed injury free.

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Where I can, I  do my LSD run on trails. I find the mixed terrain helps utilise a variety of gaits, so you don't feel artificially hampered.

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Roxii

 

While I am NOT a world beater, I have adapted to MJKs explanation of LSD

 

For the record, I am not coached, just exchanged a couple of messages over time.

 

 

TIRED LEGS NOT LUNGS

 

its that bloody simple mate

 

you seem ok(don't understate ability) at going ~5min/km. You need to go so easy that its basically a non existent effort. I actually started by long walks of around 9-10min/km

 

Months of 7:30-7:10/km

Months of 6:45-6:30/km

Now, nearly 18 months after first contact with the method I am doing ~6:10/km for the same effort on the same terrain at the same time of day etc etc.

 

You really have to be patient and throw the ego out the window. Really hard to do and I would say that Strava has been detremental to my developemment in the three sports using this methodology, but I have stopped looking at segments etc. And DON'T stare at the Garmin!!!!! It really should feel like NO effort, 

 

EASY TRAINING IS NOT EASY - Gordo Byrn

 

EDit to add: I ran a 46min 10km in the heat along the coast here on rolling terrain WITH NO speed work or hard running. Just found that I could go really hard and clear the lactate easily. TRhat was during a long week of training

Edited by FFF1077
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I used to hate Z2 running, I think I started a thread on it and used to like to just pootle along at "most efficient". Then decided I needed to get a bit serious about run training if I wanted to break 3 hours for a marathon so forced myself into it and now I love it. 

I struggle to run slowly enough sometimes so I just throw in walking breaks. Set the alarm on my Garmin to warn me if I go into Z3 on the HR and then walk until it drops back down to 2.8. That might help with the awkward running gait?

 

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10 hours ago, roxii said:

I find that trying to run slow my gait and  technique feel awkward and uncomfortable, are there any tricks to running slow? 

I'm not an expert, and I'd definitely take the advice other more qualified run coaches, but I would suggest that if trying to run slow is really awkward and uncomfortable then it is too slow 'for you'.

Running slow is good, but you should still be running with good form and in a manner that is comfortable to maintain, then have walk breaks if and where necessary to be able to cover the distance.  There are two reasons for this, firstly running so slow that you create an unnatural 'plod' will simply teach you to 'plod' and that's not what you're trying to do, and secondly (and more importantly) if you are more comfortable with your running then you are more likely to stick with your training because you are enjoying it more then as you improve you will eventually be able to do your 'long slow runs' correctly - That is, good form but not fast.    Just my thoughts, good luck with it.

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Post your runs here and we can all tell you how slow you are.

Ipso facto, you have your slow run sorted.

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Running slowly will only feel akward because you don't have the bottom end fitness to support it. 

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The other thing I’m trying to do is maintain high cadence 175+.

and while this doesn’t necessarily get my hr up super high breathing is more difficult than “normal” running at the same pace 

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12 hours ago, roxii said:

...I find that trying to run slow my gait and  technique feel awkward and uncomfortable, are there any tricks to running slow? 

I was told by my running physio that running slower amplifies any instabilities that you may have...

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14 minutes ago, roxii said:

The other thing I’m trying to do is maintain high cadence 175+.

and while this doesn’t necessarily get my hr up super high breathing is more difficult than “normal” running at the same pace 

Personally, I would try and keep those 2 things separate. Do your slow runs as normal a technique as possible just really slowly, shorten stride length or whatever is required..

if wanting a higher cadence then try this on tempo or speedier sessions

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35 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

Running slowly will only feel akward because you don't have the bottom end fitness to support it. 

The thing i really struggle with this one is if it is that slow you may as well walk, not plod like you are falling over each step.  

I get the whole run slow run fast concept but why is running slow dictated by a pace/km represent.  Slow IMO is when you run at a effort which is really easy (or low HR if you wear one). Weather will affect this intensity.  

The whole assumption that you need a GPS to tell you how to run slow is over the top.  Slow is what feels really easy.

This is coming from a person who is not reliant on a gps for training sessions.  As Sammy has said before re going by feel in another post.  In todays world enough of us just dont do it. 

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Don't overthink it.

Slow is not necessarily easy, and easy is not necessarily slow. So forgot about pace. Think about effort.

Easy effort is easy effort. Where you can hear the birds sing, take in the surrounds and chat to someone.

Don't think about cadence (although it will be slower at an easy effort than when running at a higher effort). Think about being light on your feet...like you're running through a field of daisies, or over pebbly ground in bare feet.

The key point is, easy effort is a 'feel' thing, not a number. If you find it hard to ignore your watch, then cover it up. The numbers will differ day to day, but the feel of being easy will be much the same...although some days just feel like a struggle.

I'm an advocate your using a GPS watch, running power meter, HR, etc, because they all give you information that is part of the puzzle...even if the puzzle changes day to day. The key is learning when and how to use them. Use them as a tool, but don't be a tool using them.

Finally, when it's time to go easy, which is 80-90% of the time (in running), then go easy. But when it's time to go hard, go hard.

Edited by CEM
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34 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

The thing i really struggle with this one is if it is that slow you may as well walk, not plod like you are falling over each step.  

I get the whole run slow run fast concept but why is running slow dictated by a pace/km represent.  Slow IMO is when you run at a effort which is really easy (or low HR if you wear one). Weather will affect this intensity.  

The whole assumption that you need a GPS to tell you how to run slow is over the top.  Slow is what feels really easy.

This is coming from a person who is not reliant on a gps for training sessions.  As Sammy has said before re going by feel in another post.  In todays world enough of us just dont do it. 

Would you class slow as holding a proper conversation?, 

I have slowed my running down, but not to Sammy's leave and found it helps, but is the above the non gadget guide?

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2 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

Would you class slow as holding a proper conversation?, 

I have slowed my running down, but not to Sammy's leave and found it helps, but is the above the non gadget guide?

Yes that is the best way to do it.  My version is non gadget variety.  Someone has to be.  

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44 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

The thing i really struggle with this one is if it is that slow you may as well walk, not plod like you are falling over each step.  

I get the whole run slow run fast concept but why is running slow dictated by a pace/km represent.  Slow IMO is when you run at a effort which is really easy (or low HR if you wear one). Weather will affect this intensity.  

The whole assumption that you need a GPS to tell you how to run slow is over the top.  Slow is what feels really easy.

This is coming from a person who is not reliant on a gps for training sessions.  As Sammy has said before re going by feel in another post.  In todays world enough of us just dont do it. 

I don't judge it by GPS. 

It's there retrospectively. As well as the HR measurement. 

 

All I focus on is the feeling. And form. 

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9 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

Would you class slow as holding a proper conversation?, 

I have slowed my running down, but not to Sammy's leave and found it helps, but is the above the non gadget guide?

Yeah, I'm honestly not a fast athlete anyway. So at my 6:15 ish pace my HR is sub 115 and I am not concentrating on the effort. As soon as I start to concentrate on the effort I am probably at 5:50ish per km. When I really concentrate its 5:30. When I am working it's 5mins. Below that I am only thinking about form and breathing, not even checking the splits. 

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1 hour ago, CEM said:

Don't overthink it.

Slow is not necessarily easy, and easy is not necessarily slow. So forgot about pace. Think about effort.

Easy effort is easy effort. Where you can hear the birds sing, take in the surrounds and chat to someone.

Don't think about cadence (although it will be slower at an easy effort than when running at a higher effort). Think about being light on your feet...like you're running through a field of daisies, or over pebbly ground in bare feet.

The key point is, easy effort is a 'feel' thing, not a number. If you find it hard to ignore your watch, then cover it up. The numbers will differ day to day, but the feel of being easy will be much the same...although some days just feel like a struggle.

I'm an advocate your using a GPS watch, running power meter, HR, etc, because they all give you information that is part of the puzzle...even if the puzzle changes day to day. The key is learning when and how to use them. Use them as a tool, but don't be a tool using them.

Finally, when it's time to go easy, which is 80-90% of the time (in running), then go easy. But when it's time to go hard, go hard.

Yup I agree with all of this. I think a lot of people do the easy too hard and hard too easy.  Most of my running is done at easy - moderate pace, no injuries and running has improved after a few years of stagnating. I always have my GPS running, but don't really use pace or HR, but go on feel. So my easy pace might fluctuate by 10 - 15s per km depending on how many beers and winnie blues I had the night before.

Edited by zed
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2 hours ago, BogFrog said:

I was told by my running physio that running slower amplifies any instabilities that you may have...

But running hard is also responsible for the majority of running injuries and running is one of the most injurious sports out there. Easy runs are a critical part of any decent run program. If you're doing all your running at moderate - high intensity if you don't pick up an injury you belong to a very small % of the population. 

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1 hour ago, FFF1077 said:

Yeah, I'm honestly not a fast athlete anyway. So at my 6:15 ish pace my HR is sub 115 and I am not concentrating on the effort. As soon as I start to concentrate on the effort I am probably at 5:50ish per km. When I really concentrate its 5:30. When I am working it's 5mins. Below that I am only thinking about form and breathing, not even checking the splits. 

my HR is over 130 no matter how slowly I run... no idea how you keep it so low... (higher aerobic fitness..)

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5 minutes ago, pieman said:

my HR is over 130 no matter how slowly I run... no idea how you keep it so low... (higher aerobic fitness..)

Not sure this is related to low blood pressure and maybe sams dizzy spells as well.  

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1 hour ago, zed said:

But running hard is also responsible for the majority of running injuries and running is one of the most injurious sports out there. Easy runs are a critical part of any decent run program. If you're doing all your running at moderate - high intensity if you don't pick up an injury you belong to a very small % of the population. 

Yes you are right.  Higher intensity requires more mobility and strength. IMO is mobility is a major influence on injury at higher intensities.  Kenyans a prime example of this.  You can run slow to hide poor mobility but once the pace goes up you tend to increase your cadence too high to overcome the poor mobility, the heart rate surges as well.  

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