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Running faster by running slower. Tips please

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I don't use the old 220 minus your age or Maffetone's 180 minus your age - I actually do a max HR test and work it out on the Karvonen method - at least this way it's individualised

Also adding in scheduled short (20-30step walks) every 5min works very well in building an endurance base - but you don't get caught up in the mathematics - it can be 20 steps every 3min at first and training for an IM it can be 20 steps every 10min to simulate aid stations 

 

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18 hours ago, FFF1077 said:

Agree with the 4 steps idea. Couldn't do the nose only thing. But if it works then go for it. 

Just consciously slow down. Walk. Try really hard to go slowly. It's not easy. 

thought the nose thing might be good for you WA guys to avoid eating too many flies....?  :D

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1 hour ago, pieman said:

thought the nose thing might be good for you WA guys to avoid eating too many flies....?  :D

Ever had a fly lodged up your nose? Breathe through the mouth with teeth together as a filter. :).

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10 hours ago, pieman said:

thought the nose thing might be good for you WA guys to avoid eating too many flies....?  :D

We don't breathe too hard anyway. Cut the course enough and it's piece of piss 

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On ‎11‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 9:12 PM, roxii said:

So there is plenty of talk about doing your long stuff slowly...

How slow is slow? How do you gauge “your” slow.

After considering all the comments in this thread, trying a few things in training and reviewing my results over the past few years I still reckon that doing my runs at a 'comfortable pace' is what works for me.

Last year I did 80 long runs (if you can call doing 22km's a 'long run') and for the majority of that I averaged quicker than 5 mins per km pace.  The runs that were slower than 5 mins/km were usually either when running with others, or run over hilly courses.  I was very much guided by a watch, and when running on my own would often go a bit harder to maintain a quicker than 5 min/km average...  This was not good as, although I enjoyed doing it at the time, it did leave me flat and I'd have trouble backing up for subsequent training sessions.  But, I would always take it easy and taper well leading into race weekends.  Last year, in my age group I probably had one of my best years for race results!

This year, taking the advice about intentionally running 'slower', I have now done 13 'long runs' and have tested the slow running theory.  For me, running at a pace slower than what I am 'comfortable' with just makes the run difficult and less enjoyable.  It kills my motivation and I almost feel like my Mojo is running off and leaving me behind...  it's really taken the fun out of running.

So, given that my running goal this year is to run 100 Half Marathon runs (not races) then I'm going to stick with the theory of doing them at a 'comfortable pace'.  I'll try my best to ignore the watch, and if my comfortable pace slows to being slower than 5 min/km pace then so be it.  It will be interesting to see how this effects my race times & results.

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Not every run is slow -  a week training block would have 80% at zone 1-2 pace and 20% at zone 4-5 pace, with current theory being more in Zone 4 time spent for the 20% as zone 5 benefits vs risk injury isn't worth it.

So you might do a Saturday long run for 20km in zone 1-2,  a short run with targeted zone 4/5 training (5km) and a medium run with minor zone 4 interval sessions (10km).  You should find a drop in heart rate and increase in pace over time in the Saturday long run.  The Saturday long run should be done so that when you finish it feels like you just went for a walk to the shops.  

This keeps the body in a zone that allows adaption and reduces the stress of constant higher intensity loads,  both to the muscles, bones as well as the nervous system.

The years of study on endurance athletes have shown this produces the best results.  However how often someone runs to get physiological adaption varies from person to person.   Some people may have to run 3 times a week to see progress, others 5 times a week.  

Its all interesting.

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, skinnee said:

So you might do a Saturday long run for 20km in zone 1-2,  a short run with targeted zone 4/5 training (5km) and a medium run with minor zone 4 interval sessions (10km).

Yep, been doing this stuff on and off for over 20 years, I've never had a set training plan but what you've described above is roughly what I do most weeks - week in, week out apart from when I'm injured.

26 minutes ago, skinnee said:

You should find a drop in heart rate and increase in pace over time in the Saturday long run.  The Saturday long run should be done so that when you finish it feels like you just went for a walk to the shops.

Like I said, I've been doing this running caper for along time, so my heart rate dropping and increase in pace has well and truly plateaued... years ago!   When I do my long runs at a comfortable pace I definitely wouldn't say that I was tired when I finished, but I do feel a little worse off than I would if I walked to the shops... unless of course they were a really long way away!!

34 minutes ago, skinnee said:

Its all interesting.

That's why I love being self coached and enjoy helping others.  In my case it's the mental and motivational side of it that's also just as important.

Great post by the way, that's a real good quick summary of what 3 run/week training should look like.

Add some hills and intervals and you've got a good 5 run/week plan.  Lots of ways to skin a cat though!

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Good stuff - great hearing your experience and years of running. 

I think you know your body well enough to not worry about any theory 👍

Yes hill intervals are great , trail running up hills even better , not a real fan of road running 

I always seem to go off into different world when I run so never lose the motivation, sometimes I find myself solving problems related to work / personal life whilst running 

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Just a few notes from my experience doing the 80/20 method of easy running. 

 

Only been at it it a short time (since Christmas), with the aim of improving my 5 and 10km run times. I did 5 weeks straight of only easy running. Easy running was defined as "can I keep my mouth closed and breath through my nose for 500m at this pace?". I did around 4-5 runs of 40-50km per week, all easy. No efforts whatsoever. Pace was around 6min+ per km, down towards 5:30-5:45 after 5 weeks. 

 

Then I introduced a hard session once a week in place of an easy run. 2 weeks later and I run a sub 20min 5k off the bike, first time off the bike and about 30 secs of a running 5k pb.

 

im quite excited about continuing the 80/20 (or 90/10, or 100/0) as I feel that there is a lot of progression to be made by simply running more and this is the method that will allow me to do that. I really enjoy running slow, often use podcasts, and while the ego takes a hit in the short term I'm confident I'll be a better runner in the long term. 

Just my 2c.

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13 minutes ago, Rude Beef said:

Just a few notes from my experience doing the 80/20 method of easy running. 

 

Only been at it it a short time (since Christmas), with the aim of improving my 5 and 10km run times. I did 5 weeks straight of only easy running. Easy running was defined as "can I keep my mouth closed and breath through my nose for 500m at this pace?". I did around 4-5 runs of 40-50km per week, all easy. No efforts whatsoever. Pace was around 6min+ per km, down towards 5:30-5:45 after 5 weeks. 

 

Then I introduced a hard session once a week in place of an easy run. 2 weeks later and I run a sub 20min 5k off the bike, first time off the bike and about 30 secs of a running 5k pb.

 

im quite excited about continuing the 80/20 (or 90/10, or 100/0) as I feel that there is a lot of progression to be made by simply running more and this is the method that will allow me to do that. I really enjoy running slow, often use podcasts, and while the ego takes a hit in the short term I'm confident I'll be a better runner in the long term. 

Just my 2c.

I could have written that :)

I was forced into running  easy 100% because of my torn calf, then I picked up Matt Fitzgeralds book. I was pretty much doing all easy - moderate running, but high volume 70 - 80km a week. Nothing quicker than 4.45 pace, mostly 5.15 pace. I then went and did a park run thinking I'd struggle because of the lack of speed work, but then did a sub 20 for the first time. I'd spent the previous year flogging myself, doing 400s/1km intervals etc trying to crack 20mins and couldn't. Speed work can be important, but you can still go quickish without it and the best thing is you stay injury free and get that much needed consistency.  

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1 minute ago, zed said:

I could have written that :)

I was forced into running  easy 100% because of my torn calf, then I picked up Matt Fitzgeralds book. I was pretty much doing all easy - moderate running, but high volume 70 - 80km a week. Nothing quicker than 4.45 pace, mostly 5.15 pace. I then went and did a park run thinking I'd struggle because of the lack of speed work, but then did a sub 20 for the first time. I'd spent the previous year flogging myself, doing 400s/1km intervals etc trying to crack 20mins and couldn't. Speed work can be important, but you can still go quickish without it and the best thing is you stay injury free and get that much needed consistency.  

I  could have written that Zed that was me 3 years ago prior to my SVT episode, training like a mad man.  Now onto Matt's plans.  Totally agree with the injury prevention and consistency the training provides.

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50 minutes ago, Rude Beef said:

I did around 4-5 runs of 40-50km per week, all easy. 

...

im quite excited about continuing the 80/20 (or 90/10, or 100/0) as I feel that there is a lot of progression to be made by simply running more ...

Are you saying that running 40-50km constites running more than what you were doing before? Not a coach or anyrhing, but I would say that to improve, unless a beginner/returner, you would need to be running at least 40km per week no matter what method you're using..

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2 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

Are you saying that running 40-50km constites running more than what you were doing before? Not a coach or anyrhing, but I would say that to improve, unless a beginner/returner, you would need to be running at least 40km per week no matter what method you're using..

Yeah I found under 30km = maintaining current fitness, 30 - 40 = moderate improvement, 50+ you start seeing some reasonable gains, 70km+ = you'll quickly improve. But as you pointed out, BogFrog, triathletes have to train 3 other disciplines, 30 - 40km seems to be the amount your typical AG runs, which means little progress with their running, unless they're a beginner or returning from injury.  

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When I started running in Z2 I hated it. I didn't get the endorphin kick I was used to (there is a thread here about it somewhere). For my first marathon I ran my long runs at "comfortable pace" which was about 45 seconds slower than race pace but definitely not Z2. That got me a 3:18 at Sydney.

To get over the lack of endorphins I started kicking up at the end of the long run, so for a marathon plan the longest run was 2 hours in Z2 and then 40mins at race pace... that along with a tempo and an interval got me a sub 3 at Sydney the next year. For IMNZ I have been doing long run just in Z2, a variety of speed work (Mongetti Fartleks, Yassos, joining in with the rugby players in the park for shuttle runs etc.) and then the odd Z2 off the bike. Probably around 45 - 50km a week. Was worried about the lack of tempo / focus on being fast but came within a gnat's whisker of breaking the 40min run for an Oly (watch said 3:59 pace, I'm calling the course long ;) ) which was a 90 second improvement on the run without a taper.

So I would say it works... by as they say YMMV.

Edited by monkie
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4 hours ago, BogFrog said:

Are you saying that running 40-50km constites running more than what you were doing before? Not a coach or anyrhing, but I would say that to improve, unless a beginner/returner, you would need to be running at least 40km per week no matter what method you're using..

40-50km is a pretty good week for me. Was certainly doing these weeks in half marathon and 70.3 prep but often wouldn't link 3+ weeks of that volume together. 

So weekly volune isnt isn't anything more than I'm used to in preparation, but monthly would be more. 

I agree, it's likely the volume that results in improvement, not the easy running itself. Just that the easy running is my best way to achieve such volume consistently.

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I've an interesting year so far re running.  I don't run much in terms of volume as my back can't handle it but have noticed some improvement in times since changing jobs in Nov and utilising the gym at work.  Mostly, my week for running looks like this:

2 x medium tempo runs. (5,00 - 5.20 pace or similar) and the distance varies based on time available but usually 40-50 mins.

1 x speed session, 5 x 1km@ 4.10.4.20, can do 7x1km some weeks but not every week,  occasionally a week will go by where this one doesn't happen at all.

1 x long easy run, usually on a Sunday. This one is done to time, never distance but the terrain varies from canal tow and undulating to full on muddy trails. Usually done with my neighbour, so the pace is 'chatty'. This run is never less that 90min and never more that 2.10.  No idea of the distance we cover as I had no gadgets.

I hit a Park Run PB of 20.47 a dew weeks ago which I was happy with.  Here's what's interesting. I've just got a whizz bang all singing and dancing watch  and I raced a duathlon yesterday which was 5/20/5.

At the gun I hit my watch to start the Duathlon program, after about a km, I thought I was running ok but breathing was difficult as it was 1degC.  I looked at my watch twice in that first 5km and the pace said 6.50 and 7.xx. I'm thinking this is a £400 POS and didn't look at it again but did press the right buttons for T1, bike etc.

I raced on feel as per normal.  I ended up running the first 5km in 20.19 and the 5km in 21.57.  Turns out, despite me changing the watch to metric, 'Pace' was recording in mins per mile:lol:

So, targeted speed sessions and the long easy run seem to make a difference.  I'm not sure if my mid tempo running is bringing anything to the party but I'm convinced that consistency is helping a lot, even if the volume is low (my running before was more ad hoc).

 This 'peak and trough' and terms of effort stops me from smashing myself or taking it too easy.

 

Edited by FatPom
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Persevered and tried doing another 22km long 'slow' run this arvo...  I'm buggered if I know how you guys do it!!!

Intentionally ran 'slow' for the first 12k's or so...  The inside of my thighs were starting to rub, feet were starting to hurt and I could feel a slight niggle in my left Knee and my right Achilles.  Tried to lift my pace after that but couldn't.  Finished feeling like I'd walked to the shops on the other side of town, right up the top of a bloody great mountain!!!

This slow running caper is hard!  I guess it's just something you need to work into.  I'm stuffed, have a headache, and now also have a nasty chaff in my nether region!  I am listening to what you guys are saying but I have my two 'A' races for the year coming up over the next two weekends so think I'll park the long slow running experiments till after these events.

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1 hour ago, Go Easy said:

Persevered and tried doing another 22km long 'slow' run this arvo...  I'm buggered if I know how you guys do it!!!

Intentionally ran 'slow' for the first 12k's or so...  The inside of my thighs were starting to rub, feet were starting to hurt and I could feel a slight niggle in my left Knee and my right Achilles.  Tried to lift my pace after that but couldn't.  Finished feeling like I'd walked to the shops on the other side of town, right up the top of a bloody great mountain!!!

This slow running caper is hard!  I guess it's just something you need to work into.  I'm stuffed, have a headache, and now also have a nasty chaff in my nether region!  I am listening to what you guys are saying but I have my two 'A' races for the year coming up over the next two weekends so think I'll park the long slow running experiments till after these events.

Definitely leave it if you have big races coming up but what you describe is exactly how I felt when I started. The reasoning as it was explained to me is that it is harder and less efficient to run in Z2. When you race (even marathon lengths) you end up top of Z3 or bottom of Z4 because that's where the sweet spot of aerobic and anaerobic comes together. By forcing yourself to only run in Z2 you are isolating the aerobic system and improving that.

It made sense to me when somebody described it as going to the gym to lift weights, you actively isolate muscle groups to work on them and improve them rather than trying to do everything all at the same time.

It gets easier!

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Ok, four weeks later and I've only managed to do one 22km 'long run'.  That last long 'slow' run 4 weeks ago really did knock me around both physically and mentally.  I did manage to get my races done though, and did ok in them, so was probably a bit lucky not to have done more damage.

Was going to run this morning, but got on here instead to catch up on what's been happening in Trannie World!

It's interesting to read your comments about it being harder and less efficient to run slower Monkey.  At least it makes sense as to why I'm struggling so much with it.  I sure hope you are correct about it getting easier!

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I remember reading either one of the mafftone books or mark allens from the library, and were talking about when Allen went to slow stuff.  He was frustrated with the slow running too, and finding that he used to be able to run fine up hills prior, but had to walk to keep his hr low enough.  Eventually he was able to get back to running up hills with it low enough.  It sounds a bit like what some are saying here, that to keep their hr low enough when running slow can mean dropping to a walk, yet running faster didn't really bother them.

No point to what I'm saying, I can't run.  I just remember reading it.

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4 hours ago, goughy said:

I remember reading either one of the mafftone books or mark allens from the library, and were talking about when Allen went to slow stuff.  He was frustrated with the slow running too, and finding that he used to be able to run fine up hills prior, but had to walk to keep his hr low enough.  Eventually he was able to get back to running up hills with it low enough.  It sounds a bit like what some are saying here, that to keep their hr low enough when running slow can mean dropping to a walk, yet running faster didn't really bother them.

No point to what I'm saying, I can't run.  I just remember reading it.

They talk about running your long, easy runs in Z2, that pace just feels ridiculously slow though... so I do my long, easy runs a bit faster, still at talking pace, but probably Z3. Whether that's right or not I don't know, my over 6/7 months running like this my HR has dropped for the same pace. 

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Who was it that said amateurs do their slow stuff too fast and they're fast stuff too slow?  Maybe the slow side of things you're doing faster than z2 is what they mean here, going too fast.

Btw, I have absolutely zero for about what I'm talking about.  But it seems there's a bit of a theme going here, cause I'm sure I've read many times, "it's too slow, I can't do it, I'm losing form etc etc".  

Well, if you asked me to run 1k in 3mins I'd be laughing at you!  If I wanted to run that fast I'd have to train to do it.  Maybe the problem is you have to train to run slow properly, but because it's "slower" people think they should just be able to do it?  

Edited by goughy

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Just now, goughy said:

Who was out that said amateurs do their slow stuff too fast and they're fast stuff too slow?  Maybe the slow side of things you're doing faster than z2 is what they mean here, going too fast.

Btw, I have absolutely zero for about what I'm talking about.  But it seems there's a bit of a theme going here, cause I'm sure I've read many times, "it's too slow, I can't do it, I'm losing form etc etc".  

Well, if you asked me to run 1k in 3mins I'd be laughing at you!  If I wanted to run that fast I'd have to train to do it.  Maybe the problem is you have to train to run slow properly, but because it's "slower" people think they should just be able to do it?  

its about running your easy stuff easy enough that you can do your fast stuff at 3:00/k goughy.

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8 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

its about running your easy stuff easy enough that you can do your fast stuff at 3:00/k goughy.

This - years of study at the elite level of endurance athletes show the sweet spot is 80/20 for loading the body for optimum performance. This allows consistency of training over years and improved performance,  its a long term game.

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How does this theory work for shorter distances like Sprint and OD races. at the moment I do my long run where I start easy (takes a while for the old muscles to loosen up 😄) then build slowly so the last km or 2 is at above race pace.   

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4 minutes ago, Cat Lady said:

How does this theory work for shorter distances like Sprint and OD races. at the moment I do my long run where I start easy (takes a while for the old muscles to loosen up 😄) then build slowly so the last km or 2 is at above race pace.   

As in faster than sprint distance race pace?

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5 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

As in faster than sprint distance race pace?

My OD race pace is 5:15 - 5:20. Sprint is 4:45-4:50. Long runs vary from 60 to 90 minutes.  Start the long run at 6:00 build to what I consider a comfortable pace of 5:30  finishing off with a 5:00 - 4:50.

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I think of it this way, your 10k run is a flat out 50min effort or equivalent to that.  If I considered my flat out 50min effort would I ever consider getting close to that in a long slow run?  Not a chance.  

 

While everyone's paces might differ it's that effort over time relevant to you that doesn't change.  

 

I'm not a coach and I'm relatively new to the sport compared to a lot on here but to me those paces are too quick.

 

On the flip side.  I also believe you've just gotta do what you enjoy.  No point grinding out slow k after slow k if that's not fun.  Everyone has a different sense of what's fun.  I can handle monotonous ks where others have to test themselves.  If you wanna run the best you can then there is plenty of info out there backing this 8020.  If you wanna have fun and enjoy yourself than just go out and do what's fun.

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Ffs people. 

 

I love you all but just watch some of the running related content on YouTube by MKC. 

 

That's all you need to know. 

Just. Slow. Down. 

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Well, I'm always up for something new, so might give it a go during this off season. Dunno whether 4 months will be enough time to see any changes but I'll keep you posted.  I'm inherently lazy so going slow won't be a stretch 😂

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52 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

Ffs people. 

 

I love you all but just watch some of the running related content on YouTube by MKC. 

 

That's all you need to know. 

Just. Slow. Down. 

With all due respect MKC isn't for everyone.  While I love his stuff some people just wanna go and have fun.  Performance comes second for them.  Those people aren't going to get anything from MKC cause they won't stick with it if it's boring and not enjoyable for them.

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1 hour ago, Cat Lady said:

Well, I'm always up for something new, so might give it a go during this off season. Dunno whether 4 months will be enough time to see any changes but I'll keep you posted.  I'm inherently lazy so going slow won't be a stretch 😂

its $65 for a plan from 8020endurance.com if you have training peaks already. 

Sample week workout here https://www.trainingpeaks.com/training-plans/triathlon/olympic/tp-113279/80-20-triathlon-olympic-level-3-pace-and-power-7-to-13-hours-per-week

Edited by skinnee

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2 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

With all due respect MKC isn't for everyone.  While I love his stuff some people just wanna go and have fun.  Performance comes second for them.  Those people aren't going to get anything from MKC cause they won't stick with it if it's boring and not enjoyable for them.

Fair call. Agree.

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On 24/03/2018 at 8:27 AM, Cat Lady said:

My OD race pace is 5:15 - 5:20. Sprint is 4:45-4:50. Long runs vary from 60 to 90 minutes.  Start the long run at 6:00 build to what I consider a comfortable pace of 5:30  finishing off with a 5:00 - 4:50.

That seems too quick? My OD run pace is around 4.10 and my long, easy runs would be between 5 - 5.15. If you run your long runs too fast you'll be fatigued the next day and unable to run or you'll get mentally fatigued/demotivated from constantly pushing yourself or you'll get injured because of the heavy load on your body. Plus you're training in the wrong HR zone. But as Brett said you also need to enjoy your training. If you're getting frustrated with long, easy runs being too slow, perhaps to a long tempo run e.g 20kms all easy pace but with 20 - 30mins in the middle at 10km pace. 

 

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On 24/03/2018 at 2:05 PM, FFF1077 said:

Ffs people. 

 

I love you all but just watch some of the running related content on YouTube by MKC. 

 

That's all you need to know. 

Just. Slow. Down. 

Not everyone has 1000 USD per month

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13 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Not everyone has 1000 USD per month

He didn't say sign up to get 1 on 1 coaching, just watch the videos.

 

I don't know anyone who has that sort of coin to drop on a coach.

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7 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

He didn't say sign up to get 1 on 1 coaching, just watch the videos.

 

I don't know anyone who has that sort of coin to drop on a coach.

True, though the video may only tell a little bit of it: 

"You'll learn training strategies and race tactics I use to generate my results as both coach and athlete...details not shared with the general public and not available elsewhere "

Could try this:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=runtraining

 

 

Edited by BarryBevan

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2 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

True, though the video may only tell a little bit of it: 

"You'll learn training strategies and race tactics I use to generate my results as both coach and athlete...details not shared with the general public and not available elsewhere "

Could try this for free:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1612485;search_string=runtraining

 

 

The story on Emile Zapotek is interesting.

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On 3/26/2018 at 1:25 PM, BarryBevan said:

Not everyone has 1000 USD per month

if we're talking about Matt Koorey, I get enough good info from his free FB videos and share it with patients/colleagues to watch. Consistent message seems to be stop racing in training. If he's getting 1KUS a month good luck to him.

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