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monkie

Max HR Run vs Bike

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Physio has banned me from the pool so have have reverted to the turbo for days when not running. The build up to Sydney marathon has been the first time I have properly trained with HR and actually used Max HR numbers that I have measured etc. It's been good I think and I'm feeling moderately ready for the bash at sub 3.

Jumping back on to the turbo though and measuring HR is a different kettle of fish. I seem to stay in Z2 even when RPE is pretty high and am absolutely killling myself to get to the top of Z3 / Z4. Should I measure my max HR differently for the bike? Will it be a different number? How should I do it?

Thanks!

Monkie

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Yes.  Generally IMO 10-20bpm lower.

Running everything moves so heart is powering arms and legs.  

Cycling especially on trainer is all legs.  So heart rate lower than running.  

Just go with RPE in my opinion

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20 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Yes.  Generally IMO 10-20bpm lower.

Running everything moves so heart is powering arms and legs.  

Cycling especially on trainer is all legs.  So heart rate lower than running.  

Just go with RPE in my opinion

That's interesting.  Makes me wonder why MHR tests are done on the bike?

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48 minutes ago, monkie said:

Physio has banned me from the pool...

Why... have you been weeing in it again??? :huh:

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2 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Yes.  Generally IMO 10-20bpm lower.

Running everything moves so heart is powering arms and legs.  

Cycling especially on trainer is all legs.  So heart rate lower than running.  

Just go with RPE in my opinion

This. Max Hr is (in part) dependent on the muscle mass involved. So generally the max will be lower with cycling for most as it more closely replicates the bulk of day to day movement. Also depends on the level of training (highly trained cyclists will generate their max on the bike, etc). Basically, you end up using differing HRs for cycling/running/XC skiing/ swimming/ whatever for a given RPE/effort.

FP- if you are using a max HR test from the bike to set ranges for running, then you will be inherently operating at a more conservative HR for running.

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1 hour ago, Go Easy said:

Why... have you been weeing in it again??? :huh:

:whistling: Nah, always get away with that!

Family BBQ back in the UK and I went in for a two footed slide tackle on my brother in law... missed him completely and landed nastily on my shoulder. First physio was a new one and was rubbish, gave me a load of exercises which made it worse so now I'm on full shoulder rest :(

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It's variable between people but generally max HR is ~7 beats / 5% lower on the bike compared to run 

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On your turbo do a Threshold HR test - do 10-15 minute warm up followed by 30 min full effort (trying to maintain consistent effort for whole time). After 10 mins press the lap button on your HR monitor. You can then use the average HR from the final 20 mins of the 30 minute effort as your LTHR to calculate your HR zones : 

Bike Zones
Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR

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11 hours ago, Tall Paul said:

On your turbo do a Threshold HR test - do 10-15 minute warm up followed by 30 min full effort (trying to maintain consistent effort for whole time). After 10 mins press the lap button on your HR monitor. You can then use the average HR from the final 20 mins of the 30 minute effort as your LTHR to calculate your HR zones : 

Bike Zones
Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR

Excuse my ignorance but what's LTHR and how does it differ from max HR?

Cheers,

Monkie

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Lactate threshold heart rate. 

takes a lot of time and effort to get it right. I don't agree completely with the 30min test. Especially considering we're talking about how we perform over 3hrs + 

i think what it's designed to do is refine training zones. But problem is, dependant on what kind of training your doing, this number will be different. It's not worth doing one half hour smash session every month or so just to maybe find out. 

Getting the session right without a lab is pretty much near impossible, I personally think it is a waste of time unless your trying to find that last little bit of performance after exhausting all other options. 

Edited by willie

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2 hours ago, willie said:

Lactate threshold heart rate. 

takes a lot of time and effort to get it right. I don't agree completely with the 30min test. Especially considering we're talking about how we perform over 3hrs + 

i think what it's designed to do is refine training zones. But problem is, dependant on what kind of training your doing, this number will be different. It's not worth doing one half hour smash session every month or so just to maybe find out. 

Getting the session right without a lab is pretty much near impossible, I personally think it is a waste of time unless your trying to find that last little bit of performance after exhausting all other options. 

OK... so are you saying that LTHR is pointless for the amateur or Max HR generally? I'm finding it's done great for my running... Well, I think it has!

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LTHR... not max. Getting zones almost right is good enough, no need to waste time on LTHR. Your zones will vary  slightly on how much sleep you got, how much work you did that way, how many beers you had the night before etc etc... 

Keep things easy and basic. If you want lactic testing I can arrange that, but again. Limited benefit for normal people with lives. 

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3 minutes ago, willie said:

LTHR... not max. Getting zones almost right is good enough, no need to waste time on LTHR. Your zones will vary  slightly on how much sleep you got, how much work you did that way, how many beers you had the night before etc etc... 

Keep things easy and basic. If you want lactic testing I can arrange that, but again. Limited benefit for normal people with lives. 

Cool! That's what I thought you meant. :)

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Does anyone just run without a watch determining things.

IMO some athletes limit themselves in training and races because of the set pacing and HR limiters. Your body is the best indicator of what feels hard and easy. 

 

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I'll leave any technical / coaching arguments regrading HR relevance to the experts. But, I've not used HR or Max HR for any sessions for years. As Willie says, lots of things can affect your HR and any given day. I've been living in hot, tropical and desert locations for almost 10 years and I've found it not uncommon for HR to increase at least 10 bpm during the Summer.

I've found once you know what a run at 4:00 per k and 5:00 per k, and a ride at 190W or 250W feels like, it's much better to run with pace and ride with power and RPE.

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If that's all true then I'd like to be bothered testing my run hr, last time I raced velodrome I was hitting 191 hr regularly.

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2 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Does anyone just run without a watch determining things.

IMO some athletes limit themselves in training and races because of the set pacing and HR limiters. Your body is the best indicator of what feels hard and easy. 

 

I race by feel  not by HR but have been spending time trying to run "easy" which is something I struggled to do by feel and always ended up veering towards race pace. With the discipline of staying in Z2 for my longer runs I've felt big improvements over the last three months.

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13 minutes ago, roxii said:

If that's all true then I'd like to be bothered testing my run hr, last time I raced velodrome I was hitting 191 hr regularly.

Wanna be a lab rat? When I'm set up a bit more we'll get you in and test you... 

11 minutes ago, monkie said:

I race by feel  not by HR but have been spending time trying to run "easy" which is something I struggled to do by feel and always ended up veering towards race pace. With the discipline of staying in Z2 for my longer runs I've felt big improvements over the last three months.

2

Do you have a coach that you do a session/s with on a regular basis? I reckon you need one that is willing to spend a bit of time with you (either one on one or very small group) to help you learn how to run at a set pace. i.e spent 10-12 weeks watching you like a hawk until it clicks and you've got that skill set down pat. Don't just rely on the watch, quite often a coach can sense that you're not quite 100% and will adjust accordingly. 

Key to easy is slow down enough and don't over do the distance. Most people think because they're running slow it's not taxing their body so they run too far in easy stuff. Cut your slow easy runs right down and make sure you get the key sessions done correctly. The key sessions are worth double IMO. 

Another thing you want to stay away from until you've got a grip on thing is bulk groups/"coaching". Those massive groups are good in a way, but no so good if you're trying to learn or adjust a skill set. Enough advice for now. I'm going to get back in my box.

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7 minutes ago, willie said:

Wanna be a lab rat? When I'm set up a bit more we'll get you in and test you... 

Do you have a coach that you do a session/s with on a regular basis? I reckon you need one that is willing to spend a bit of time with you (either one on one or very small group) to help you learn how to run at a set pace. i.e spent 10-12 weeks watching you like a hawk until it clicks and you've got that skill set down pat. Don't just rely on the watch, quite often a coach can sense that you're not quite 100% and will adjust accordingly. 

Key to easy is slow down enough and don't over do the distance. Most people think because they're running slow it's not taxing their body so they run too far in easy stuff. Cut your slow easy runs right down and make sure you get the key sessions done correctly. The key sessions are worth double IMO. 

Another thing you want to stay away from until you've got a grip on thing is bulk groups/"coaching". Those massive groups are good in a way, but no so good if you're trying to learn or adjust a skill set. Enough advice for now. I'm going to get back in my box.

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I read what I wrote. I'm almost as illiterate as Brett Sutton :lol: But you should catch my drift.

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5 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Does anyone just run without a watch determining things.

IMO some athletes limit themselves in training and races because of the set pacing and HR limiters. Your body is the best indicator of what feels hard and easy. 

 

I do. I also ride with zero gadgets.  On the turbo I use an RPE scale of 1-10 and running is just 'easy/med/hard.

of course, the other side of the coin is, I'm not very good.  :lol:

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21 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Does anyone just run without a watch determining things.

IMO some athletes limit themselves in training and races because of the set pacing and HR limiters. Your body is the best indicator of what feels hard and easy. 

 

 

I do agree with this if you're training alone - but my experience with groups is that as the athletes start getting a bit of conditioning under their belts they start to compete in training sessions,, which is no problems in some sessions but when it's to be an endurance session they end up training in the wrong zones - it's good to have both, a heart rate monitor and discipline if you want the best preparation for a long event B)  

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