Jump to content
KieranR

Question for the runners

Recommended Posts

Factors to be considered here.

Obvious things come to mind regarding comments.   

Lack of strength - glute weakness been identified.  Get the central driver stronger everything else will get better. 

Lack of volume - if increased a lot does that heightened risk of injury. 

Too much focus on goal time not enough focus on just running better.   Move better = perform better.  

Best bang for buck exercises for glute strength is step ups, if done correctly and side planks in neutral position.   

60km a week should be plenty but it really depends on how you structure that 60km week.  Long run is important and IMO you need long run mileage in the bank.  Even a double run day can be of benefit.  

If you long run is 30km your other session can be structured as                      - easy run x 5-10km                                      - hill strength session building from 4 up to 10 x 1 to 2mins  Or fast session building from 4km up to 12km of higher paced running (this can be broken down into intervals etc.) Pace is controlled though

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, KieranR said:

You've misunderstood me, I have zero intention or ability currently of running a 3;15 marathon in 15 weeks, Its  a long term goal, as per my post i mentioned i have no set time frame,

My planned marathon in 15 weeks is to see how far i have come by then, i expect this will take me a few marathons and lots of training to achieve. 

Sorry about that. 

Patience and consistency are the keys. Both are products of time. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fitness Buddy said:

 

60km a week should be plenty but it really depends on how you structure that 60km week.  

60km/week is sfa is terms of marathon training. 

Yes, you can finish a marathon on low mileage, but you're not going to run it well or near your potential. 

I suspect Kieran will need to run very well to do 3:15. He will need to be strong over the final 10km.

I doubt skimping on mileage will bring the desired result. 

Too many people have a running goal and ask 'how little can I train to achieve it', instead of how much is required to earn it. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

3:15 was not a target time just an example if you read his comments.  

Follow a process and see what evenuates

I totally agree with what you say about following the process, however the initial post and question was definitely very specific, ie what does it take to get to 3:15.

Regardless of the time, most posters on the thread are citing all kinds of ephemera and ignoring the crux of marathon preparation. 

Zed has been the only one to mention mileage, and he is only just beginning to see the benefits of increased volume with his running. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Paul Every said:

I totally agree with what you say about following the process, however the initial post and question was definitely very specific, ie what does it take to get to 3:15.

Regardless of the time, most posters on the thread are citing all kinds of ephemera and ignoring the crux of marathon preparation. 

Zed has been the only one to mention mileage, and he is only just beginning to see the benefits of increased volume with his running. 

 

Yeah I agree mileage is essence.  Unless he completely drops swim bike he can't achieve the mileage.  I was trying to hit a happy place where 60 maybe that if structured right. 

I know people who have run under 2:30 off 80km a week peaking at 100km in Tri training mode but with run focus for 10 weeks.  Yet a 200km a week runner (just runner) same time.  

80km a week after netting 2:38-2:42.  

Volume is great if can do progressively and stay healthy injury free.  If he can't move well then it is a no go

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

...Best bang for buck exercises for glute strength is step ups, if done correctly and side planks in neutral position.   

Can I ask why you consider side planks effective for running?

32 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

60km/week is sfa is terms of marathon training. 

Yes, you can finish a marathon on low mileage, but you're not going to run it well or near your potential. 

I suspect Kieran will need to run very well to do 3:15. He will need to be strong over the final 10km.

I'm not a terribly gifted athlete and I have only done one marathon, 2 years ago, but I managed just short of a 3:30 (sort of the equivalent of a guy doing a 3:15??) on the base of 50-70km/week.  I did a whole heap of strength work prior to setting off on my 12 week program and I think that is what got me through the last 10km - the slow down was only 10secs a km from 32 - 42km.   I also ran a lot on tired legs in training - e.g. did a 16km fartlek run one day, and the next day followed it with a steady paced 16km run.  I only did 3 runs over 30km

No, I am not trying to do a "look at me" or FIGJAM, just trying to say that different things work for different people.  There are many ways to skin a cat.  I know that the low, quality mileage program works for me, but it may not work for everyone.  Just like doing 100km weeks works for some, but will break others - slow running breaks me.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not going to drop swim bike as I have some other long term goals there, however i have reduced from 3 rides a week to 2.  swimming is 3 times a week, sadly im a shit swimmer so need to work on that too

Im a whole bunch of work but that's OK, the new me wont give up.

Step 1 - work on my strength in my glutes etc.

Step 2 - Follow this 15 week plan im looking at (40-50 km a week at this stage)

Step 3 - Run the marathon and see where i end up improvement wise against my previous marathons

Step 4 will be improved fitness, weight would have continued to come down, re assess and look into more mileage (that seems to be the consensus)

but by then Cairns is on the radar so will have to work out whats going to work to get ready for that.

Thanks for all the advice folks.  really appreciated

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bogfrog.  

Side plank generates the greatest muscle activity in glute medius when performed neutrally.  

Remember running we want to stay tall as possible through hips.  If we can generate strength here it will help in long run.  

You can do this then apply to a more movement based exercise like an off set loaded lunge to SLS (Single leg stand) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Yeah I agree mileage is essence.  Unless he completely drops swim bike he can't achieve the mileage.  I was trying to hit a happy place where 60 maybe that if structured right. 

I know people who have run under 2:30 off 80km a week peaking at 100km in Tri training mode but with run focus for 10 weeks.  Yet a 200km a week runner (just runner) same time.  

80km a week after netting 2:38-2:42.  

Volume is great if can do progressively and stay healthy injury free.  If he can't move well then it is a no go

 

Cherry picking some outliers there. 

How much faster would your sub 2:30 triatletes be off an extended  marathon program? 

How much slower your 200km/week runner if he was only doing 80?

Yes, staying injury free is essential to consistency. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Yeah I agree mileage is essence.  Unless he completely drops swim bike he can't achieve the mileage.  I was trying to hit a happy place where 60 maybe that if structured right. 

I know people who have run under 2:30 off 80km a week peaking at 100km in Tri training mode but with run focus for 10 weeks.  Yet a 200km a week runner (just runner) same time.  

80km a week after netting 2:38-2:42.  

Volume is great if can do progressively and stay healthy injury free.  If he can't move well then it is a no go

 

I'm finding that easy running = injury free, 80km mostly easy is much more forgiving on the body (at least for me) than what I was doing before which was 30 - 40 all moderate - high intensity. Trotting along at 5-5.15 pace I just don't feel much impact at all. I can also do double run days. I used to have to alternate run days because I was sore/stiff.  

But yeah 80km is high for an age grouper and I'm not riding anywhere near as much as I should be, I'd imagine I'll pull back on that mileage slightly as I increase bike volume. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kerian

One other than the physical is how much can/will you hurt yourself in a run?. Not training but racing.

For example I can dig real deep running, but cycling and swimming i can't. 

If you want something to read try 'Brain training for running" or something very similar.

On the physical side don't underestimate the benefit of double run days, these can be a really good way of building distance, and recovering better. In my experience two shorter runs does not equal the body stress of 1 run of the same distance. Especially on building distance during the week.

Most of all you have to enjoy the process, and knowing when to back of and avoid an injury/grummy family will get you more miles than pushing it and getting injured

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Bogfrog, it's ultimately about operating within our limitations, whether they be injury thresholds, work, family, etc. 

Certainly, physical limitations will often change throughout a athlete's career. 

I dare say that with only one marathon, 3 long runs and a maximum of 70 km under your belt, with more time and experience, your resilience, training volumes and PBs will certainly improve.

You could well be a 3:10 marathoner stuck in a 3:32 body (at this point anyway). 

I ran my first marathon off consistent 80km weeks. The following year, 100 was the norm. Years later, I was running volumes I would neither have anticipated or thought possible, with less susceptibility to injury. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, zed said:

80km mostly easy 

What exactly do you mean by 80km easy?  What would an average week look like?

So, when I say slow running breaks me - I've had lots of people telling me that I should do my long / recovery / easy runs around 5:30 - 6:00 based on the theory of a percentage of marathon race pace, or 10km race pace (can't remember which one).  If I ran at that pace, I would end up with niggles.  I'd be spending more time on one leg (ground contact time would be greater) and any instabilities really come out to play then.  I'd also be plodding and form would go out the window.  My long / recovery /easy runs are about 20sec/km slower than marathon pace...  I also vary my paces a lot in training which staves off injury I think.  I'm back with a running coach who seems to be getting great results out of me this way...  

I think I might have a 3:15 in me alright Paul, but I think I can do it off 70km/week.  I know that the high volume would break me (probably mentally as well as physically!)  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

What exactly do you mean by 80km easy?  What would an average week look like?

 

Sun - 20km easy

mon - 10km easy 

tue - 12km tempo (4km WU/CD)

wed 14km easy

Thurs 10km - 12km moderate

Fri - 6km intervals e.g 400s, 1km

Sat - 5 - 10km brick run

 

I have a very loose plan and vary how I go depending on how I feel on the day. If I feel tired I'll run slower, if I feel good, some easy runs end up being tempo runs. Some weeks I might do 2 interval sessions, more simply to add variety. I don't think they're that critical. I just concentrate on getting the volume in, making sure most of it is easy - moderate pace meaning I'm not tired or injured. Seems to be working for me so far. 

You could probably achieve similar results with mostly moderate to high intensity, but you'd be mentally and physically fatigued and much more prone to injuries. That's my $0.02  anyway.

Edited by zed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Zed, id like to see how you dial this into your training when you start back at 70.3 or 140.6 training with adding the bike back in, do you think maybe you will drop one or two runs, maybe 10-15 km less?  maybe not?

 

Also what the thoughts on yoga and Pilates, my wife is constantly at me to do some of that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, KieranR said:

Zed, id like to see how you dial this into your training when you start back at 70.3 or 140.6 training with adding the bike back in, do you think maybe you will drop one or two runs, maybe 10-15 km less?  maybe not?

 

Also what the thoughts on yoga and Pilates, my wife is constantly at me to do some of that.

Yoga and pilates are fine but you stated you didn't have to run more volume yet have time for pilates and yoga. 

That can be done at home anyway.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, KieranR said:

Zed, id like to see how you dial this into your training when you start back at 70.3 or 140.6 training with adding the bike back in, do you think maybe you will drop one or two runs, maybe 10-15 km less?  maybe not?

 

Yeah not sure what I'll do. I go OK on relatively low bike mileage 2.25 for Busso on 100kms a week. So may drop 1 run day, but will probably look to do Busso 70.3 with a high run volume, average swim volume and low bike volume. More of a case of wanting to get my run sorted out than thinking that's a good training strategy. We'll see :).. 

Edited by zed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not all mileage - in 30yrs of triathlon training I have never ran more than 70km in any week - lots of lesser mileage weeks - my focus has been on the best technique and good core strength - off that I have run several sub 3.15 marathons and a 3.35 IM marathon in Hawaii - if i ran higher mileages I would not be able to absorb it

I think the short answer is our OP is too fat - and probably needs coaching :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Yoga and pilates are fine but you stated you didn't have to run more volume yet have time for pilates and yoga. 

That can be done at home anyway.  

Yep would be done at home

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AP said:

It's not all mileage - in 30yrs of triathlon training I have never ran more than 70km in any week - lots of lesser mileage weeks - my focus has been on the best technique and good core strength - off that I have run several sub 3.15 marathons and a 3.35 IM marathon in Hawaii - if i ran higher mileages I would not be able to absorb it

I think the short answer is our OP is too fat - and probably needs coaching :huh:

😂😂 you are correct on both things! Too fat and definitely need coaching.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Probably also as many of us need to also do he needs to look at his goals, how much he really wants them and what he is willing to do to achieve them. At the moment i would say that they are not possible given his current limitations and level of comittment to change them. When people start talking about balance this is normally code for i dont want my goals bad enough to change anything in life to do them and i'll continue to do what i'm doing or only half committ, and when i dont get them i can look in the mirror and say at least i was balanced.
In time perhaps with a slow consistent approach to increasing his volume etc then this goal may come into reach. It looks like Kieran understands this so hopefully wont get injured doing this, and maybe if the tri goals arent around for a year he will get closer to it. through in some weight loss with this consistent training and it gets closer.
As Paul has said and i agree he will need plenty more volume. just dont make the mistake of thinking volume is the panacea. you still require good strength, a sprinkling of some intensity through tempo and speed work, getting the body composition right and then some race hardness to execute as close to possible for what you are actually capable of.
just dont get caught up that volume on its own is the answer, volume is just the grand total of all the work you do to get ready and not all volume is created equal, its what is contained within the volume that really counts. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 29/08/2017 at 11:35 AM, zed said:

I think your average age-grouper rides too much and doesn't run enough. 

I don't agree with this.

Most AGers run times fall below expectation because they're not strong enough on the bike and/or ride too hard.

23 hours ago, AP said:

It's not all mileage

I agree with this.

I think the discussion has become blurred between run training for triathlon and run training for a straight marathon.

As far as IM run training is concerned, most athletes would be far better off getting super strong on the bike and actually pacing the bike on race day to ensure they can run to their potential.

There's a reason 98% of the field can't average sub 5 min/km for an IM run leg - they're not strong enough on the bike and/or they pace themselves poorly.

My 70.3 and IM PB run splits were off easily my lowest run mileage in the builds. But I was easily the strongest I've ever been on the bike and I paced my rides to run well off the bike.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Hoffy86 said:

I don't agree with this.

Most AGers run times fall below expectation because they're not strong enough on the bike and/or ride too hard.

I agree with this.

I think the discussion has become blurred between run training for triathlon and run training for a straight marathon.

As far as IM run training is concerned, most athletes would be far better off getting super strong on the bike and actually pacing the bike on race day to ensure they can run to their potential.

There's a reason 98% of the field can't average sub 5 min/km for an IM run leg - they're not strong enough on the bike and/or they pace themselves poorly.

My 70.3 and IM PB run splits were off easily my lowest run mileage in the builds. But I was easily the strongest I've ever been on the bike and I paced my rides to run well off the bike.

Strong enough generally I believe.  

A lot age groupers spend big $$$$ on every piece on bike gadgetry they can get to make the bike more aero, lighter yet spend shit all on getting stronger,  leaner, get technique sorted, get more mobile. 

Training on a heavier wheelset is a great way of building strength yet we see constantly race wheels used as training wheels. 

Some of us are too focused on numbers and less about getting uncomfortable to get comfortable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×