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Niseko

Meat and Water Diet Study

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So I've been following this guy on Twitter, Shawn Baker who is the world record holder for over 50's in Concept 2 Rowing for several events, mostly short distance. He is an orthopedic surgeon who has, for the last 10 months only eaten meat and drunk water. Then I found a Facebook group (zero-ing in on Health) which has about 12,000 members who are following a similar way of eating (WOE in the lingo) and they are mostly all loving it. Lots of N=1 accounts of it curing Irritable bowel and other conditions.

 

So Shawn Baker is putting together this study of 90 days for people to just eat meat (basically any animal) and drink water. You need to document any deviations from the plan, and can use eggs and cheese occasionally but as much as possible just meat and water and nothing else.

 

So of course signed up. 

 

Starting in a week or two, and will be taking a bunch of tests before during and after. Will put some stuff on my long dormant blog too.

 

For people wanting to sign up of follow check out www.nequalsmany.com. 

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will be interesting to watch. id be a little curious as to the effect on gut flora but am no expert on this.
part of me just says mmmmm meat

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I think this will be fantastic for short-term health benefits, but could have some pretty bad repercussions long-term. My bet is that whomever tries this will instantly lose a ton of weight and gain lean muscle (if they work out.) Long term, as in being on this diet for more than a year, I think you'd start to see some nutritional deficiencies develop, and, depending on the meat, some cholesterol issues.

But who knows, some people eat ONLY VEGETABLES and don't die, so that defies logic to me. :) 

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How do you get your carbs? Would this be a zero carb diet? If so, from my limited knowledge, doesn't the brain need a small amount of carbs to function?

I am not knocking something I have not tried, just an observation.

I will be keen to follow your progress

Cheers

NSF

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35 minutes ago, Notsofast said:

How do you get your carbs? Would this be a zero carb diet? If so, from my limited knowledge, doesn't the brain need a small amount of carbs to function?

I am not knocking something I have not tried, just an observation.

I will be keen to follow your progress

Cheers

NSF

Some carbs from glycogen stores in the meat.

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If nothing else it will give us something to talk about on Transitions - might need a bit of fibre to keep it moving through you :huh:

Imagine being on a long trip with a vegan and a meat and water only guy - would be interesting sitting around the campfire with them of an evening 

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17 minutes ago, Pencil_Towel said:

Definitely looking forward to reading about your experience in this endeavour.

Best of luck.

Better hope he doesn't get banned from posting again !!!

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Not even a multivitamin in there?

What are the risks of vitamin and mineral deficiency, such as scurvy from lack of vit c??

Isnt that what took down sailors who only had salted preserved meat to eat?

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1 hour ago, Turts said:

Not even a multivitamin in there?

What are the risks of vitamin and mineral deficiency, such as scurvy from lack of vit c??

Isnt that what took down sailors who only had salted preserved meat to eat?

I'm pretty sure this myth has already been busted.  

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1 hour ago, Turts said:

Not even a multivitamin in there?

What are the risks of vitamin and mineral deficiency, such as scurvy from lack of vit c??

Isnt that what took down sailors who only had salted preserved meat to eat?

 

14 minutes ago, RunBrettRun said:

I'm pretty sure this myth has already been busted.  

Got a link for that? Everything i have seen talks about the importance of vit c, and only available in fruits and veg ( and supps, although inconclusive that supps are as effective)

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2 hours ago, AP said:

If nothing else it will give us something to talk about on Transitions - might need a bit of fibre to keep it moving through you :huh:

Imagine being on a long trip with a vegan and a meat and water only guy - would be interesting sitting around the campfire with them of an evening 

There's a reality tv show waiting to happen!

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Interesting how Dr Baker's has taken a significantly different approach to Dr Garth Davis (albeit they would presumably both agree on not having much processed stuff)...

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4 hours ago, AP said:

Imagine being on a long trip with a vegan and a meat and water only guy - would be interesting sitting around the campfire with them of an evening 

One would eat the other...

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17 hours ago, Niseko said:

So Shawn Baker is putting together this study of 90 days for people to just eat meat (basically any animal) and drink water. You need to document any deviations from the plan, and can use eggs and cheese occasionally but as much as possible just meat and water and nothing else.

There is zero chance I could do this. Whilst I've been predominantly LCHF for close to 4 years now, there's no way I could give up fruit and veg completely - even for 90 days. I also have moments of weakness (there's some killer Anzac biscuits sitting outside my office as I speak) and I'm happy enough to indulge now and then.

Good luck with it though, along with the others I'm interested in how it goes but even more interested to see how rigidly you can stick to it. Even just having water as the only fluid intake would kill me.

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Yes bacon is fine - as much as you like. Basically any animal meat, organs, cow, fish, chicken all OK. I don't like organ meat so will be doing mostly:

- Late breakfast/lunch of hamburger patty bacon and sausages

- Hamburger patties in the afternoon for snacks

- Scotch fillet steak for dinner

I already did about 30 days as a kind of experiment on my own and found it quite enjoyable and overall had pretty good results. Meat is definitely my favorite food and that only increased as I went on throughout the month. I went off sweet things more and more and didn't miss them at all after a couple of weeks. I was drinking coffee then (black) but this study is no coffee. I think the things I'll miss the most is booze, coffee and fruits and veg. My wife makes amazing salads and baked veggies that I missed,, so that will be hard. I've picked a few 'outs' during the 90 days that I have events on that I will drink booze.

I was thinking to have a gut-biome analyses pre and post test but the field is no new, the two companies providing that service are producing widely different results with the same sample so it's not worth it as yet. So much to go in that area.

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/here’s-poop-getting-your-gut-microbiome-analyzed

The main questions people have and I was also concerned about are:

- Don't you need carbs to think and train?

I'm not really training for tris at the moment, just H.I.IT, but when I was I could ride 125kms without any calories and still finish pretty strong. I think race day if going long I would need carbs. But in general there is no need for carbs int he human body. It actually seems to thrive more in the a

- Won't you get Scurvy?

Basically if you eat meat you get all the vitamins you need. Unless you start eating grains then the requirement for Vitamin C goes up

https://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2006/09/04/why-meat-prevents-scurvy/

- Won't you get constipation with no fibre?

Fibre is a really interesting one, basically in the absence of plats it's not needed at all. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3435786/

http://www.biblelife.org/fiber.htm

The current management for Chrohns, IBS, Ulcerative Colitis tend to recommend increasing fibre. But there is a growing number of people who have cured themselves by avoiding plant food. 

Also more evidence that high fibre increases breast and colon cancer.

The fibre is an inflamant on the digestive tract, does not reduce appetite.

 

It's pretty interesting going down the rabbit hole.

99.9% of animal products are edible to humans. 

About 1% of plants are edible to humans.

And our stomach is based on hydrochloric acid same as carnivores. Ruminants are based on fermentation, so they can kill the grains first. We really on ruminants to kill the grains and turn it into real food (meat) for us, and then eat that!

 

Edited by Niseko

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3 hours ago, Niseko said:

99.9% of animal products are edible to humans. 

About 1% of plants are edible to humans.

And our stomach is based on hydrochloric acid same as carnivores. Ruminants are based on fermentation, so they can kill the grains first. We really on ruminants to kill the grains and turn it into real food (meat) for us, and then eat that!

The first is a ridiculous statement without context of actual numbers.

 

The second.... our pre digestive sliva contains amylase to breakdown starchs. Aka fruit/veg. Its not just lube

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My wife was ranked 2nd 1st (2013) in the world 50-55yrs for Concept Rowing (500m) a few yrs ago.  I think Champagne was the key.

She fronted up to the Masters Games on the GC and while warming up, all these wiry old rowing blokes were telling her how her technique was all wrong.  Then she raced and kicked ass and they all quietly faded into the background.

She's now training up again for the Master Games in Dunedin in Feb.  The Champagne diet has been progressing quite well.

Edited by ComfortablyNumb

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2 hours ago, Turts said:

The first is a ridiculous statement without context of actual numbers.

 

The second.... our pre digestive sliva contains amylase to breakdown starchs. Aka fruit/veg. Its not just lube

Why is it ridiculous? 

Think about in recent evolutionary history when we had no farming but had animals and plants all around us. Who would want to be the guy to go and test all the plants when they all knew for sure that an animal was safe to eat? For the most part the only plants we can eat have been highly modified to make them consumable. 

Diet would have been very simple until bringing in plant food. 

 

I realize Saliva is not just lube, although it does function well in that regard ; -), but it breaks down all food we put in our mouths. 

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Oh and I'm doing this ti help with the experiment and maybe to get some health gains. I doubt I'll live this way long term. 

 

If if you ask 100 people (Is red meat good for you?) probably 80 would say a straight 'no'. Then maybe 10% would say 'only lean meat in small portions'. 

How many would say 'it's the most nutritious food in the world and one of very few foods that can completely sustain humans on its own'. ?

 

 

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2 hours ago, The Customer said:

Mmmmm peaches

The seedless mandarins down here are sensational at the moment.

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23 hours ago, Niseko said:

 

99.9% of animal products are edible to humans. 

About 1% of plants are edible to humans.

 

 

19 hours ago, Turts said:

The first is a ridiculous statement without context of actual numbers.

 

 

17 hours ago, Niseko said:

Why is it ridiculous? 

Think about in recent evolutionary history when we had no farming but had animals and plants all around us. Who would want to be the guy to go and test all the plants when they all knew for sure that an animal was safe to eat? For the most part the only plants we can eat have been highly modified to make them consumable. 

Diet would have been very simple until bringing in plant food. 

Like I said, numbers.   There's no measurable metrics in that statement.

Without getting into whether it's even right or not, 99.0% versus 1 % of what?  

Biomass? Abundance? Species?

And you say "animal products".  Does this separate organs V meat? different steak cuts?  

Humans also have grinding teeth - indicative of omnivores.  Plus saliva.  And gut bacteria.  So your argument that we were designed to only eat meat because our stomach is acidic as opposed to cows fermentation is also flawed. 

I won't even go into the rest of it. 

 

But, as you said, it's an experiment.  So it might not end well.  But it might. 

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I'm not trying to deny humans are omnivores. Just that we share more in common with carnivores than herbivores.

I think what is a plant and what an animal is pretty simple and easy enough to categorize. Look up the dictionary of the words if you want a clearer definition. And I mean any part of any animal is edible and will sustain us. Bar maybe that puffer fish thing. 

As mentioned there are thousands of people thriving on a carnivorous diet. Including the Masai (solely cows) and Inuits (seal) who have no concept of heart disease or cancer, so I'm not so worried that I need to get my affairs in order just yet. 

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On ‎28‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 9:17 AM, AP said:

Imagine being on a long trip with a vegan and a meat and water only guy...

 

On ‎28‎/‎07‎/‎2017 at 1:26 PM, trinube said:

One would eat the other...

Haha, wouldn't that mean that they were both on 'vegan' diets... :lol: :lol::lol:!

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Forget the carnivore. I'd go insane being on a trip with a Vegan if they are anything like the ones that keep whinging about lack of Vegetarian options at the local tavern (whose specialty is the grill).

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Yep there are so many have guy demanding vegans and vegetarians. I think we need a lot more vocal carnivores to counteract their growing toxic influence on our society. 

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Does becoming a vegan or even a vego turn you into a very serious humorless person?  It seems to have done that to the ones I know?  Any joy in life appears to have entirely evaporated?

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I'm now following a facebook group who follow this WOE. I could never do it and don't want to, but it is interesting to read some of the anecdotes.

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14 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Forget the carnivore. I'd go insane being on a trip with a Vegan if they are anything like the ones that keep whinging about lack of Vegetarian options at the local tavern (whose specialty is the grill).

I was recently in India talking to a few groups of people - each talk finished with a Q and A section - as usual the vegan in the audience felt the need to draw attention to his plight - his question "How is it possible for a person on a vegan diet to get the level of protein that you suggest is needed to train for an Ironman triathlon and continue to recover well"?

My answer - "For a start I really don't think becoming a vegan, that is totally avoiding all animal products, is either natural or sustainable. No human started out as a vegan, mother's milk is an animal product, I was raised on it, my kids were raised on it. I don't think anyone serious about a sport that requires 15-18 hours of training a week, can get away without eating animal products. Just my opinion."

His object was achieved, a moment in the spotlight :huh:

Edited by AP
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I thought the reason vegans farts smelled so bad was so that, even without talking, they could bring attention to the fact they are vegans. 

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On 7/28/2017 at 10:15 PM, The Customer said:

MMMM mango. So easy to eat with my primate-like fingers.

Mmmmmmine too. They are on here at the moment. Roadside cart loads by the hundreds of kilos at around 80 rupees a kilo ($1.40). Heavenly on there own or topped with a spoon or 3 of yoghurt.

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3 hours ago, AP said:

I was recently in India talking to a few groups of people - each talk finished with a Q and A section - as usual the vegan in the audience felt the need to draw attention to his plight - his question "How is it possible for a person on a vegan diet to get the level of protein that you suggest is needed to train for an Ironman triathlon and continue to recover well"?

My answer - "For a start I really don't think becoming a vegan, that is totally avoiding all animal products, is either natural or sustainable. No human started out as a vegan, mother's milk is an animal product, I was raised on it, my kids were raised on it. I don't think anyone serious about a sport that requires 15-18 hours of training a week, can get away without eating animal products. Just my opinion."

His object was achieved, a moment in the spotlight :huh:

It is surprising the level some vegetarians can get to in endurance sports. A lot of them break down with injuries after a while but they can often be very successful. Rich Roll, Hilary Biscay and I think Eneko Llanos were veggo's and Arnaud Selukov who won Ultramar Australia is too.

 

Just goes to show how adept we are at surviving.

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Being a vego is doable - but being a vegan - (no eggs or dairy) is pretty impossible to get enough protein - I'd hate to be doing it

But when we go to the zoo and look at the gorilla's diet and the muscle mass they carry - they're on a vegan diet - and if we look at a horse or a bull and the amount of muscle they carry for vegans - it seems the secret is in the ability of the gut to absorb the nutrients B)  

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1 hour ago, AP said:

Being a vego is doable - but being a vegan - (no eggs or dairy) is pretty impossible to get enough protein - I'd hate to be doing it

But when we go to the zoo and look at the gorilla's diet and the muscle mass they carry - they're on a vegan diet - and if we look at a horse or a bull and the amount of muscle they carry for vegans - it seems the secret is in the ability of the gut to absorb the nutrients B)  

Brisbane based self proclaimed "Big Deal Triathlete" does OK as a vegan. I think the winner of Ultraman Australia this year is also a vegan.

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Niseko, if you don't mind sharing, what are the key indicators you are using for health monitoring? Also, have you got a baseline?  

Ta 

FM

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1 hour ago, AP said:

Being a vego is doable - but being a vegan - (no eggs or dairy) is pretty impossible to get enough protein - I'd hate to be doing it

But when we go to the zoo and look at the gorilla's diet and the muscle mass they carry - they're on a vegan diet - and if we look at a horse or a bull and the amount of muscle they carry for vegans - it seems the secret is in the ability of the gut to absorb the nutrients B)  

Yes that what's the herbivores do for the carnivores, turn the plants into food that we want to eat. :lol:

10 minutes ago, Flanman said:

Niseko, if you don't mind sharing, what are the key indicators you are using for health monitoring? Also, have you got a baseline?  

Ta 

FM

I don't have them as yet, they asked for suggestions and we're about to be given the list. 

 

Here is Shawn Baker talking about it: 

 

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