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KieranR

How do i become a better runner keeping HR low

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ashley_s    57

I haven't read all the post. But I used a lot of zone 2 running over the years with great success. Volume is the key. 

If I read correctly you upped your cadence to 180 and was running quicker but your heart rate went up. That is because you were running faster. 

Running speed is distance per stride x stride rate. The key to upping the stride rate is to look at where your feet are landing. To run at the same speed you need to slightly shorten your  stride distance and or reduce contact time with the ground.

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GSP    209

I think this is an easy one without having to overthink it or plan it.

What has worked for me is simply run as much as you can without getting injured and run as many of those KM's as close to the race pace you want to go.  That will get you faster and will get you lighter which in turn will get you faster again.  If you want to lose weight, then the more running works wonders.

Now a few obvious qualifiers here on the general statement I made,

  • it requires build up, you don't just go to 60k per week, but you should be aiming to get up to there and more (then to a limit of course dependent upon time and other sports).
  • To qualify the  "as close to race pace" comment, all runs I do are a build, and you can only do this when fit.  Say a 20k run, the first 5k are very slow but slowly getting quicker then should be up to good tempo speed by about 10k then hold that for the rest with slight increments.  So if say training for a 3hr mara, then you'd want to be not too far off a lot of those k's at 4.15.
  • You need to listen to the body and no when to back off, but don't be a chicken on the slightest of niggles, you'd be surprised how many you can run out - you learn to know what you can get away with or not and when an injury is not on.  For example I've gone out running with niggly ankles or slightly sore knee and by 3/4k it's gone.  But if it's not you do have that "uh oh" and then for plan B.  (I've not had that).
  • As FB and others have said form helps avoid injury, but it is very hard to change it.  I personally don't work on it, I find the more i run and the lighter I get the form improves naturally, well that's how it feels and what I have been told who have seen me run.

Ciao

 

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AP    1,596
6 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Strength and ability to be more efficient will get you HR down at same pace over time.  If you are wasting energy through being inefficient you are not going to get anywhere.

Dedicated a session a week focussing on form.  Try running while skipping this will teach you to pick feet up not roll.  Knee leading drive, hips level.  

Run to heart rate not too pace when training.  Pace will come down as you become fitter.  If you are focusing on both you are just doing your head in.  Just focus on one thing dont complicate things too much.  

There are factors that change HR response like weather, stress, fatigue.  So your hr is your gauge not the pace your are running.  

So many runners in triathlon focus too much on the watch and not enough on how they are running.  

Okay guys/gals fire away and call this bull shit.  

 

 

I don't say bull shit - IMHO this is the way to go - good technique will help you remain uninjured - it will keep you in the game longer - when training for aerobic development I suggest you leave your Garmins and stop watches at home and just use HR 

And for OP I would say run max HR is most likely higher than bike HR unless you have a huge cycling background ;)

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Fitness Buddy    624
18 minutes ago, AP said:

I don't say bull shit - IMHO this is the way to go - good technique will help you remain uninjured - it will keep you in the game longer - when training for aerobic development I suggest you leave your Garmins and stop watches at home and just use HR 

And for OP I would say run max HR is most likely higher than bike HR unless you have a huge cycling background ;)

Pretty much what i said but never mentioned GARMIN as telling someone leave this at home is like a knife through the heart. 

 

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Slowman    238
6 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

....  

There are factors that change HR response like weather, stress, fatigue.  So your hr is your gauge not the pace your are running.  

So many runners in triathlon focus too much on the watch and not enough on how they are running.  

Okay guys/gals fire away and call this bull shit.  

 

 

What are you saying? I used to do a 5km running time trial every and my HR was pretty much the same regardless of the weather, and those other factors. I would sit on 181-183bpm, those other factors seemed to change the time in which I completed the run.

 

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Fitness Buddy    624
2 minutes ago, Slowman said:

What are you saying? I used to do a 5km running time trial every and my HR was pretty much the same regardless of the weather, and those other factors. I would sit on 181-183bpm, those other factors seemed to change the time in which I completed the run.

 

Pretty sure if you in 40 degrees temp your hr would be different. Spose if you are in same conditions consistently your body would be use to them but IMHO a dramatic change in temp would alter things.  

Running into a head wind you HR is going to go up yet your pace will go down.  Are you going to try maintain pace or adjust accordingly?  

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GSP    209
3 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Pretty sure if you in 40 degrees temp your hr would be different. Spose if you are in same conditions consistently your body would be use to them but IMHO a dramatic change in temp would alter things.  

Running into a head wind you HR is going to go up yet your pace will go down.  Are you going to try maintain pace or adjust accordingly?  

Agree, I remember a could of years ago was thumping out the k's in Niagra, then at NY a few days later slightly slower, then at Mexico....meltdown.  HR was through the roof at just after warm up pace in the previous places.

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RunBrettRun    1,363

Ego is the worst thing for athletes in long distance racing.   Once people get their head around that and can control it their performance will definitely increase.  Taking your goal off a set min/km and targeting hr is a great way to learn how to control the ego.

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goughy    2,146

Ego, is not a dirty word!

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goughy    2,146
2 hours ago, Bored@work said:

Typo, the 1 is next to the 2 on the keyboard.

You missed my sarcasm.

 

I was thinking that when I realised you had a 2 at the front of the number, but had to go......

And you forgot your smilie!

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GSP    209
9 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

Ego is the worst thing for athletes in long distance racing.   Once people get their head around that and can control it their performance will definitely increase.  Taking your goal off a set min/km and targeting hr is a great way to learn how to control the ego.

I think that HR keeps an ego in check.  You have to run to a HR to even complete any long distance (effectively).

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goughy    2,146
9 hours ago, Bored@work said:

you missed my sarcasm twice. 

Back in my box :(

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zed    771
11 hours ago, GSP said:

I think this is an easy one without having to overthink it or plan it.

What has worked for me is simply run as much as you can without getting injured and run as many of those KM's as close to the race pace you want to go.  That will get you faster and will get you lighter which in turn will get you faster again.  If you want to lose weight, then the more running works wonders.

Now a few obvious qualifiers here on the general statement I made,

  • it requires build up, you don't just go to 60k per week, but you should be aiming to get up to there and more (then to a limit of course dependent upon time and other sports).
  • To qualify the  "as close to race pace" comment, all runs I do are a build, and you can only do this when fit.  Say a 20k run, the first 5k are very slow but slowly getting quicker then should be up to good tempo speed by about 10k then hold that for the rest with slight increments.  So if say training for a 3hr mara, then you'd want to be not too far off a lot of those k's at 4.15.
  • You need to listen to the body and no when to back off, but don't be a chicken on the slightest of niggles, you'd be surprised how many you can run out - you learn to know what you can get away with or not and when an injury is not on.  For example I've gone out running with niggly ankles or slightly sore knee and by 3/4k it's gone.  But if it's not you do have that "uh oh" and then for plan B.  (I've not had that).
  • As FB and others have said form helps avoid injury, but it is very hard to change it.  I personally don't work on it, I find the more i run and the lighter I get the form improves naturally, well that's how it feels and what I have been told who have seen me run.

Ciao

 

I've never seen more injuries in a sport than I have triathlon and that's after 20 years of rugby. And I reckon 90% of them would be from running, with many injuries lasting months. I've got 3 mates with stress fractures in different parts of their bodies and most will never likely return to the level they were at. So while i agree, you can get quick doing all your training at race pace, the risk of injury increases exponentially. You can be careful with niggles and soreness, but some injuries are instant rather than gradual. Also there have been a number of extensive studies done on high intensity vs low intensity running, detailed in Matt Fitzgerald's book (80/20 running) and multiple studies with a variety of athletes from elite to recreational have revealed that the athletes on a 80/20 regime (80 easy, 20 hard) improved the most over a period of 12 weeks in comparison to those that were on a mostly high intensity training regime. The group that improved the least were training mostly at a moderate level in line with a lot of recreational runner,with no high intensity running. So high intensity is needed to get quick, but beyond 20% - 30% it ceases to be as effective as low intensity training. Also I've found running at a lower intensity allows me to train the other disciplines more effectively. If I did 20kms at lunch at race pace, I'd be too flogged to swim that afternoon. So lower intensity running is not just about saving your body. It's a hard concept for people to get their head around.

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Latch    3
10 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Pretty sure if you in 40 degrees temp your hr would be different. Spose if you are in same conditions consistently your body would be use to them but IMHO a dramatic change in temp would alter things.  

Running into a head wind you HR is going to go up yet your pace will go down.  Are you going to try maintain pace or adjust accordingly?  

 Things would defn be different in the heat ..... with pace being the major difference...hr may or may not be the same... difference between an input and output measure....

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Latch    3
6 minutes ago, zed said:

I've never seen more injuries in a sport than I have triathlon and that's after 20 years of rugby. And I reckon 90% of them would be from running, with many injuries lasting months. I've got 3 mates with stress fractures in different parts of their bodies and most will never likely return to the level they were at. So while i agree, you can get quick doing all your training at race pace, the risk of injury increases exponentially. You can be careful with niggles and soreness, but some injuries are instant rather than gradual. Also there have been a number of extensive studies done on high intensity vs low intensity running, detailed in Matt Fitzgerald's book (80/20 running) and multiple studies with a variety of athletes from elite to recreational have revealed that the athletes on a 80/20 regime (80 easy, 20 hard) improved the most over a period of 12 weeks in comparison to those that were on a mostly high intensity training regime. The group that improved the least were training mostly at a moderate level in line with a lot of recreational runner,with no high intensity running. So high intensity is needed to get quick, but beyond 20% - 30% it ceases to be as effective as low intensity training. Also I've found running at a lower intensity allows me to train the other disciplines more effectively. If I did 20kms at lunch at race pace, I'd be too flogged to swim that afternoon. So lower intensity running is not just about saving your body. It's a hard concept for people to get their head around.

Most triathletes think more or faster is always better...and can't fathom missing a session because they are tired or have a bit of a niggle... a bit like the cross fit scene there is an element of ego in pushing through... 

I have found that slowing athletes down for significant portions of their run training is the first point of call... I generally will hear I can't run that slow .. I feel like I am walking.... but miraculously injuries begin to subside... and they can actually race to their potential... consistency is always king! 

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prizna    527
19 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Strength and ability to be more efficient will get you HR down at same pace over time.  If you are wasting energy through being inefficient you are not going to get anywhere.

Dedicated a session a week focussing on form.  Try running while skipping this will teach you to pick feet up not roll.  Knee leading drive, hips level.  

Run to heart rate not too pace when training.  Pace will come down as you become fitter.  If you are focusing on both you are just doing your head in.  Just focus on one thing dont complicate things too much.  

There are factors that change HR response like weather, stress, fatigue.  So your hr is your gauge not the pace your are running.  

So many runners in triathlon focus too much on the watch and not enough on how they are running.  

Okay guys/gals fire away and call this bull shit.  

 

 

aside from the girly skipping bs i kinda agree ;)

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goughy    2,146

I remember watching something years ago about a study in the US regarding using skipping (you know, like through the daisy field, not with a rope) instead of running, how effective and low impact it was on the body yet you could still travel fairly fast. It still looked wrong watching two guys doing down the street. Though, it did have a kinda Goodies, slow Mo footage, vibe to it.

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GSP    209
10 hours ago, zed said:

I've never seen more injuries in a sport than I have triathlon and that's after 20 years of rugby. And I reckon 90% of them would be from running, with many injuries lasting months. I've got 3 mates with stress fractures in different parts of their bodies and most will never likely return to the level they were at. So while i agree, you can get quick doing all your training at race pace, the risk of injury increases exponentially. You can be careful with niggles and soreness, but some injuries are instant rather than gradual. Also there have been a number of extensive studies done on high intensity vs low intensity running, detailed in Matt Fitzgerald's book (80/20 running) and multiple studies with a variety of athletes from elite to recreational have revealed that the athletes on a 80/20 regime (80 easy, 20 hard) improved the most over a period of 12 weeks in comparison to those that were on a mostly high intensity training regime. The group that improved the least were training mostly at a moderate level in line with a lot of recreational runner,with no high intensity running. So high intensity is needed to get quick, but beyond 20% - 30% it ceases to be as effective as low intensity training. Also I've found running at a lower intensity allows me to train the other disciplines more effectively. If I did 20kms at lunch at race pace, I'd be too flogged to swim that afternoon. So lower intensity running is not just about saving your body. It's a hard concept for people to get their head around.

Hi Zed,

I wasn't suggesting running at high intensity.  I was talking about running as much as possible at race pace for long distance running.  If you are doing short tris, that is clearly not achievable.  For me, the only time I'll get into high intensity running is during a SC race, never in training anymore, but a large portion above comfortable.  You should be able to hold that pace for 1-2 hours, if you can't you're moving into HI running which as mentioned I'm not suggesting.

Regarding injuries, sure there are plenty of examples where some people are prone to injuries and I can't disagree that running can bring them out (I've had plenty of niggles from running myself).  You always here about the unlucky injured person, but not all the people that largely have not had major problems.

Ciao

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RunBrettRun    1,363
1 minute ago, GSP said:

Hi Zed,

I wasn't suggesting running at high intensity.  I was talking about running as much as possible at race pace for long distance running.  If you are doing short tris, that is clearly not achievable.  For me, the only time I'll get into high intensity running is during a SC race, never in training anymore, but a large portion above comfortable.  You should be able to hold that pace for 1-2 hours, if you can't you're moving into HI running which as mentioned I'm not suggesting.

Regarding injuries, sure there are plenty of examples where some people are prone to injuries and I can't disagree that running can bring them out (I've had plenty of niggles from running myself).  You always here about the unlucky injured person, but not all the people that largely have not had major problems.

Ciao

 

Honestly even long distance tri racepace is way too fast for everyday running.  The majority of my running is done at +1:00min per k on 70.3 pace and +30 sec per k on ironman pace.  I'd say the 80 percent would be done at that level.

 

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Mishca    12

Forgive my ignorance... Is MAF training is all about training at low HR, but racing at a higher intensity? Or is it expected that after a period of time at low HR you can start introducing higher HR training? 

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prizna    527
2 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

 

Honestly even long distance tri racepace is way too fast for everyday running.  The majority of my running is done at +1:00min per k on 70.3 pace and +30 sec per k on ironman pace.  I'd say the 80 percent would be done at that level.

 

That works for you but what about those of us that walk the marathon? 

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RunBrettRun    1,363
1 minute ago, prizna said:

That works for you but what about those of us that walk the marathon? 

Your coach has something that could help with that. 

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wombattri    26
On 11/07/2017 at 2:07 PM, Fitness Buddy said:

Strength and ability to be more efficient will get you HR down at same pace over time.  If you are wasting energy through being inefficient you are not going to get anywhere.

Dedicated a session a week focussing on form.  Try running while skipping this will teach you to pick feet up not roll.  Knee leading drive, hips level.  

Run to heart rate not too pace when training.  Pace will come down as you become fitter.  If you are focusing on both you are just doing your head in.  Just focus on one thing dont complicate things too much.  

There are factors that change HR response like weather, stress, fatigue.  So your hr is your gauge not the pace your are running.  

So many runners in triathlon focus too much on the watch and not enough on how they are running.  

Okay guys/gals fire away and call this bull shit.  

 

 

This is precisely what my coach got me to do. Took me a while to get used to it, but its working so far.

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wombattri    26
On 11/07/2017 at 2:07 PM, Fitness Buddy said:

Strength and ability to be more efficient will get you HR down at same pace over time.  If you are wasting energy through being inefficient you are not going to get anywhere.

Dedicated a session a week focussing on form.  Try running while skipping this will teach you to pick feet up not roll.  Knee leading drive, hips level.  

Run to heart rate not too pace when training.  Pace will come down as you become fitter.  If you are focusing on both you are just doing your head in.  Just focus on one thing dont complicate things too much.  

There are factors that change HR response like weather, stress, fatigue.  So your hr is your gauge not the pace your are running.  

So many runners in triathlon focus too much on the watch and not enough on how they are running.  

Okay guys/gals fire away and call this bull shit.  

 

 

This is precisely what my coach got me to do. Took me a while to get used to it, but its working so far.

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