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KieranR

How do i become a better runner keeping HR low

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KieranR    117

I ran a PB 10km on Sunday night of 54:35 (yes its slow compared to a lot of you), but its an improvement none the less.  I've been doing lots of reading, and im just having a play around with trying to run at my MAF heart rate which calculates to 145 bpm, but im also wanting to quicken my cadence to 180, normally around 172-174.  On Sunday I set my watch to beep on a 180 metronome, and after the 1st km i had settled down and got into the right rhythm and felt comfortable.  Average pace for the 10km was 5:27 km, the average cadence balanced out at 177 (the first km would have bought this down from 180)  my H/R avg was 154.  So how do i get quicker pace and bring the HR down?

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prizna    527

180 is a soft number don't treat it too seriously.

Personal MAF experiences are positive. It's rather simple, run easy and you'll be able to run often, if you run often and easy you'll run consistently, when you run consistently your run will improve.

My tips, be patient and stick to a plan. Do not chop and change, give the plan time to work.

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RunBrettRun    1,363

Agree with prizna.

 

Don't chop and change run every run at Maf.   Be strict and walk when going up hills.  The pace will drop faster than you think if you're consistent. 

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KieranR    117

Great thanks guys, RBR, I live in Karratha mate, no hills here at all haha.  So throw out the cadence theory all together?

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monkie    174

I used to be a massive cynic about Z2 training... I've now done it for 5 weeks for my long run (combined with speed work and tempo work throughout the week) and my average pace for staying in Z2 has already dropped by about 30 seconds....

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zed    771

Volume is key. You can probably achieve similar results with high volume and high intensity as you can with high volume and low intensity, but in all likelihood the former will result in injuries and/or issues with motivation. How many kms a week are you doing and what % is hard/moderate vs easy?  Have a read of this, it could transform your training and your running. I've had some decent gains and have only just started running with this philosophy. It's funny when I mention this to people, they generally just stare at me blankly, not really getting it. But anyway...

https://www.booktopia.com.au/80-20-running-matt-fitzgerald/prod9780451470881.html?source=pla&gclid=CKekhOH5_9QCFZCVvQodNGwHZg

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goughy    2,146

I found, when I was trying to teach myself to up my cadence, my hr naturally went up with it, at least for a while. Even when running at the same pace. Your body needs time to normalise to the change you've made. Give it a little time and your he will come down to she it was for that pace. 

At least, that's my totally uneducated opinion. Take it with a grain of salt!

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zed    771
1 hour ago, KieranR said:

Great thanks guys, RBR, I live in Karratha mate, no hills here at all haha.  So throw out the cadence theory all together?

IMO, just use it as a guide. For me I feel I'm running more efficiently mid - high 170s, so if I'm getting to low 170s/high 160s I'll look to address that. Use it as a guide. It helped change the way I ran, more of a forefoot rather than heel strike, so it's a useful metric, but don't get too hung up on it. Everyone is different. 

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Stikman    1,303

Running easy allows you to run more.  Running more makes you faster.  Run six times a week, all easy and some very short (like 10-15 minutes short.)  Speed work (anything faster than easy) is on the wrong side of the risk/reward equation until you have a significant run base and many (most?) triathletes never get to that point due to having to train for three sports.  Pure runners would be unlikely to add "quality" work until they are well over 60km per week average for a month or two.

As for cadence?  It should be an end result of other things not a target to aim for by itself.  You can still overstride at 180spm.  The source for that number (as best I can find) is an observational study done by Jack Daniels at the '84 Olympics.  Is it any wonder that elite runners have a fast stride rate AS WELL AS a long stride?

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Bored@work    1,495

I went from a 5:19 IM Marathon to a 4:02.  Run easy and often.  Mix it up with trails & hills and enjoy running.  I stopped listening to music & started listening to podcasts.  I get caught up in the music & up the pace unintentionally.

Drop some weight if possible & the speed will also come up.

For an IM prep, I only focused on speed work in the last 4 to 5 weeks.

I think with time I can get that IM Marathon time down to a 3:45 / 3:50sish

 

 

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dazmuzza    37

I'm following the 80/20 principle talked about above and its working really well for me. Focus on volume and keep HR lowish. I've dropped dedicated speed work to do a tempo style run instead. My 'speed' work is threshold sets one day a week. The rest is long slow running and getting ks under the belt. I'm not getting injured and I'm recovering well for my other sessions and my times are coming down. 

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KieranR    117

Thanks guys, some great info here.  Im planning on racing Busso in December if everything falls into place

2 hours ago, monkie said:

I used to be a massive cynic about Z2 training... I've now done it for 5 weeks for my long run (combined with speed work and tempo work throughout the week) and my average pace for staying in Z2 has already dropped by about 30 seconds....

A good mate of mine did this last year and to start off with he was at 6;30 pace in Z2, then within two months he was low 5 min pace.

1 hour ago, zed said:

Volume is key. You can probably achieve similar results with high volume and high intensity as you can with high volume and low intensity, but in all likelihood the former will result in injuries and/or issues with motivation. How many kms a week are you doing and what % is hard/moderate vs easy? 

Zed, since Cairns, I've just been running with no real idea, just throw the shoes on and run, done a few 5-7 km runs in low 5 min pace, a couple 10km with just a plan of doing it under an hour (which is no problem), no change in intensity  during the runs etc, the head wind has been the biggest challenge.  I cant do high volume, my body wont allow me to, 3 runs is about it for me a week, 2 mid week x 1 hr each or less and one long weekend run 1.5 to 2 he is the plan

 

20 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

I went from a 5:19 IM Marathon to a 4:02.  Run easy and often.  Mix it up with trails & hills and enjoy running.  I stopped listening to music & started listening to podcasts.  I get caught up in the music & up the pace unintentionally.

Drop some weight if possible & the speed will also come up.

For an IM prep, I only focused on speed work in the last 4 to 5 weeks.

I think with time I can get that IM Marathon time down to a 3:45 / 3:50sish

 

 

I've only ran 2 marathons, one stand alone in Townsville running festival last year where i did a 4.47, this run was part of a three day iron distance event (Fri Swim, Sat Ride, Sun Run), my legs stopped working at 34 km for a bit, got them back 1 km later and shuffled home, and then at Cairns IM this year I did 5.04 ( i slowed my run down due to the blood issue i had) but i feel as though i could have run 4.40 this day.  Id love to get down to a between 4 and 4.30 for my next one, i think that is realistic.

Dropping weight is a thing that's ongoing, im down close to 30 kg from when i started and currently hover between 88 and 90, the goal is somewhere in the low 80's so a bit of work to go.

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AP    1,596

I have done years of this process - I suggest you test your own max HR and calculate your training zones from that - the 180 minus your age is "too safe" it's designed for the great untrained masses out there

Control your ego - you will continue to improve over years if you stick at this - a couple of the early posters on this thread have given you good advice

I have found with conscientious training in this low HR zone there's a breakthrough point around six week where it all becomes easier

 

 

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goughy    2,146

AP's talking shit, what would he know ;)

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zed    771
36 minutes ago, KieranR said:

 

Zed, since Cairns, I've just been running with no real idea, just throw the shoes on and run, done a few 5-7 km runs in low 5 min pace, a couple 10km with just a plan of doing it under an hour (which is no problem), no change in intensity  during the runs etc, the head wind has been the biggest challenge.  I cant do high volume, my body wont allow me to, 3 runs is about it for me a week, 2 mid week x 1 hr each or less and one long weekend run 1.5 to 2 he is the plan

 

I

Your body won't let you because you're probably going too quick. You're running 5min pace with a 10km time of 54mins. I run 10 in about 41 and my easy runs are 5.15 - 5.30. I'm finishing a 20km run feeling like I've jogged round the footy oval twice. Using the Jack Daniels calculator you should be doing your easy runs at between 6.30 - 7 min pace. And that's going to require discipline. It's hard to run slow, as AP pointed out, ego gets in the way. It's hard when I run at lunch and get overtaken by my fat colleagues "I thought you were an Ironman??"  But the proof is in the pudding and I've seen results very quickly by upping my mileage. 

Make your next run no quicker than 6.30 pace, if you go quicker you need to see that as a failure , your pace will want to keep on creeping up and that's where the discipline comes in. If you can run 10km at low 5 pace you can 15 at 6.30 pace.

 

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pieman    403

You'll be surprised what your body will let you do if you run at an easier pace and build slowly. If you are already doing 3 runs a week try adding another one for a few weeks and then see how you are feeling before adding more. As Stikman says, I had my best results running 6 times a week with 3 of those runs less than 20mins and/or off the bike. Added speedwork/tempo after 2 months and possibly drop to 5 runs

I have had 2 arthroscopes on both knees and not a runners physique and had way less injuries on this plan. Then kid#1 and kid #2 came along and now I can't run once a fortnight...

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KieranR    117
1 hour ago, AP said:

I have done years of this process - I suggest you test your own max HR and calculate your training zones from that - the 180 minus your age is "too safe" it's designed for the great untrained masses out there

Control your ego - you will continue to improve over years if you stick at this - a couple of the early posters on this thread have given you good advice

I have found with conscientious training in this low HR zone there's a breakthrough point around six week where it all becomes easier

 

 

AP, is my max heart rate for running going to be different from cycling?

 

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Fitness Buddy    624

Strength and ability to be more efficient will get you HR down at same pace over time.  If you are wasting energy through being inefficient you are not going to get anywhere.

Dedicated a session a week focussing on form.  Try running while skipping this will teach you to pick feet up not roll.  Knee leading drive, hips level.  

Run to heart rate not too pace when training.  Pace will come down as you become fitter.  If you are focusing on both you are just doing your head in.  Just focus on one thing dont complicate things too much.  

There are factors that change HR response like weather, stress, fatigue.  So your hr is your gauge not the pace your are running.  

So many runners in triathlon focus too much on the watch and not enough on how they are running.  

Okay guys/gals fire away and call this bull shit.  

 

 

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Latch    3

First post in a long long time....

 

As the others have mentioned you are running your mid week runs way too fast and this probably also corresponds with your long run... you need to slow down, don't get caught up in the theories of cadence until you have dropped those km splits significantly... with a lot of my athletes who have not come from a run background we often instigate the 14 day run challenge (this can be extended depending upon the athlete) but it is just run 20 mins every day for 14 days... miss a day and the count begins again....nothing fast ...all easy....I would suggest that you need to increase run frequency, and maintain weekly duration... my thoughts anyway....good luck with it

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Bored@work    1,495
5 hours ago, goughy said:

AP's talking shit, what would he know ;)

He's done Kona 28 times

 

5 hours ago, KieranR said:

Dropping weight is a thing that's ongoing, im down close to 30 kg from when i started and currently hover between 88 and 90, the goal is somewhere in the low 80's so a bit of work to go.

At 181cm I went from 124kg down to 85/88 for my first IM & hoovered around there.

My last 4 x IM I dropped to 78/79kg - It makes a huge difference.  Currently 85kg & feeling every Kg when running.  Get lean & get faster. 

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dazmuzza    37
5 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

He's done Kona 28 times

 

At 181cm I went from 124kg down to 85/88 for my first IM & hoovered around there.

My last 4 x IM I dropped to 78/79kg - It makes a huge difference.  Currently 85kg & feeling every Kg when running.  Get lean & get faster. 

Wanna give me tips on how to drop down? :) I'm 104 currently,  trying to get to 82, but I've never been able to get below 91. 

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goughy    2,146
41 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

He's done Kona 28 times

Hey B@W, your sarcasm metre is out of phase..... I even include a winking smilie! AP got it :)

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