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Any benefit from strength work/lifting

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6 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Deek didnt use a garmin either so maybe should get rid of them too.  

Pretty sure he didn’t use a personal trainer so let’s get of them as well while you’re at it.

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But he had a moustache. 

 

Let's make them compulsory. 

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32 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

But he had a moustache. 

 

Let's make them compulsory. 

So did Newk, Lillee, Boonie, the King, to name a few...

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3 hours ago, Wronggenes said:

Pretty sure he didn’t use a personal trainer so let’s get of them as well while you’re at it.

Great idea.  That's why I quit tonight.  This thread has made me realise I am pretty useless individual who has helped many people but in the end no one really gives a shit about me.  

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I didn’t realise the original poster was a world class marathon runner. Sorry for my confusion.

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8 hours ago, Parkside said:

I didn’t realise the original poster was a world class marathon runner. Sorry for my confusion.

You mean it wasn’t about whether the former Governor of California can ride a sub 1 hour 40km time trial?

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11 hours ago, trilobite said:

So did Newk, Lillee, Boonie, the King, to name a few...

Definitely a performance enhancement item then 🤔

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On 28/05/2018 at 9:39 PM, FatPom said:

It wasn’t that long ago that sub 50 would have netted a Nat Record. Qualy times for Nats are 52s and the standard is very high. I doubt anyone on this board is or has ever been within cooee of sub 50. Best I ever did was a high 57 and that’s so slow nowadays that it won’t even get you an invite to a regional open.

The difference between 55 and 52 is incomprehensible to most unless you are a serious tester.

Comparing TT times in the UK to most other locations is not apples to apples. Reality is on fast UK courses, usually dual carriageways, there is a large wind assistance factor from vehicle traffic that is kind of unique to the UK. In most of the rest of the world TTs are not permitted on such courses. At least not while open to traffic.

 

21 hours ago, AP said:

Back in 99 one of the girls I coached was a QAS athlete - she could use their gym anytime as long as her coach was with her, so three times a week we did a gym session in addition to our normal SBR training 

It was only a 1hr session of 8 exercises -- we did a 12 week program -- 1st 4 weeks it was 3 sets of 12-15reps of each exercise for conditioning ----- 2nd 4 week block we increased weights with each set so it went 12-15 --- more weight 7-8 -- more weight 2-3 reps for pure strength ----- 3rd 4 week block was strength endurance warm up with 12-15 reps - then remove some weight and do one set of 45-50 (this is hard)

After that 12 week block she raced the Australian champs at Mooloolaba and won the elite juniors wave by 2min against girls who had been regularly beating her earlier in the year -- a month later I raced Hawaii and did the fastest time I'd ever done on that course and ran my fastest ever IM marathon

It was only a study of two athletes a 21yr old and a 51yr old but the results were more than we could have dreamed of 😎 

Not directed at anyone in particular, just a comment...

Anecdotes are fun and all but they should not cloud our judgement of what's the right approach for each individual. They do however tend to be a more powerful influence on thinking than they should be.

As previously mentioned, individual responses can vary quite a bit. For some doing such work will be a good idea. For others it may well be detrimental. Understanding how to discern which is key.

Importantly as I'm sure we coaches have experienced time and again, motivation to be consistent with training is far more important, and if a relatively light smattering of gym / resistance work helps with that, the chances are the end result will be good. But for each individual, something else might be even better for that. I coached a cycling world record holder for whom going snowboarding was the "best" alternative training for them. But I don't tell everyone to go snowboarding because "look, world record".

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22 minutes ago, Alex Simmons said:

Anecdotes are fun and all but they should not cloud our judgement of what's the right approach for each individual. They do however tend to be a more powerful influence on thinking than they should be.

As previously mentioned, individual responses can vary quite a bit. For some doing such work will be a good idea. For others it may well be detrimental. Understanding how to discern which is key.

Importantly as I'm sure we coaches have experienced time and again, motivation to be consistent with training is far more important, and if a relatively light smattering of gym / resistance work helps with that, the chances are the end result will be good. But for each individual, something else might be even better for that. I coached a cycling world record holder for whom going snowboarding was the "best" alternative training for them. But I don't tell everyone to go snowboarding because "look, world record".

Thanks Alex. This post should be pinned somewhere.

 

My take on this would be : The "Art" of creating a good training plan is to build something that an athlete will be motivated to stick to. 

If the athlete is "motivated" by seeing their works uploaded to Training Peaks, and tracking their performance improvements in a measured "Scientific" approach, then that may be one  method.

There you go AP. Balance between "Art" and "Science". 😀

Edited by Dave T
typo

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6 hours ago, Alex Simmons said:

Comparing TT times in the UK to most other locations is not apples to apples. Reality is on fast UK courses, usually dual carriageways, there is a large wind assistance factor from vehicle traffic that is kind of unique to the UK. In most of the rest of the world TTs are not permitted on such courses. At least not while open to traffic.

 

 

True only to a degree these days. 'The V' is no longer in use and many fast times are still set on sporting courses. Traffic count regulations have all but banned TTs on DCs that have had a massive WT effect in the past.  I hate DC courses and don't ride them.

What you describe is still in play sometimes but definitely a situation that is changing. The TT landscape in the UK is changing, both literally and figuratively but I'd wager that most of the fast guys here would be still very fast on any course in the world, whether others want to accept that or not is up to them.

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2 hours ago, FatPom said:

True only to a degree these days. 'The V' is no longer in use and many fast times are still set on sporting courses. Traffic count regulations have all but banned TTs on DCs that have had a massive WT effect in the past.  I hate DC courses and don't ride them.

What you describe is still in play sometimes but definitely a situation that is changing. The TT landscape in the UK is changing, both literally and figuratively but I'd wager that most of the fast guys here would be still very fast on any course in the world, whether others want to accept that or not is up to them.

I wasn't saying they wouldn't be fast. Just they are unlikely to be quite as fast as they are in the UK and as such comparing records there with records elsewhere is not really apples with apples. Same applies with the occasional course in USA such as at Moriarty (at altitude).

The UK 25-mile record is 42:58 on a DC in Wales. That's faster than the world TT champion in any TT has managed over the past decade. It's faster than most World Tour TTT speeds.

I don't blame you for not riding on DCs.

The traffic counts permitted by UK TT regulations  are still way way over what you can get away with here. By more than an order of magnitude. Up to 1200 vehicle units per hour on DCs and up to 600 per hour on single carriageways is deemed viable.

At Calga if the count gets to even 1/10th of that then the police will likely close it down as they have been doing on long weekends when the traffic count isn't all that bad.

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1 hour ago, Alex Simmons said:

I wasn't saying they wouldn't be fast. Just they are unlikely to be quite as fast as they are in the UK and as such comparing records there with records elsewhere is not really apples with apples. Same applies with the occasional course in USA such as at Moriarty (at altitude).

The UK 25-mile record is 42:58 on a DC in Wales. That's faster than the world TT champion in any TT has managed over the past decade. It's faster than most World Tour TTT speeds.

I don't blame you for not riding on DCs.

The traffic counts permitted by UK TT regulations  are still way way over what you can get away with here. By more than an order of magnitude. Up to 1200 vehicle units per hour on DCs and up to 600 per hour on single carriageways is deemed viable.

At Calga if the count gets to even 1/10th of that then the police will likely close it down as they have been doing on long weekends when the traffic count isn't all that bad.

Ah I see your point, agree entirely.  I think there is this perception that TTing in the UK is only done by suicidal time chasers on what are effectively, two lane motorways.  I saw that Bialoblocki's bike has a 70t chainring!  There are certainly a group of testers doing this, I ride with one (ex pro rower).

However, that's not my scene. I like TTing but I race the course and much prefer sporting courses (which aren't allowed in Regionals). There are a load of TTers here, whilst still fast, that just won't take the risk any more.  Some DC's a 6am on a Sunday morning are fine but they're getting rarer.

I do the National Circuit TT Champs every year at Thruxton race course. They are hugely popular and I can see the future of non pointy end TTs being along these lines.  The state of some of the non DC roads are also a concern and some courses have been canned due to excessive potholes now.

The fast people will always be fast on whatever course. i just hope their ego in not letting go of a 'time' doesn't get them killed.

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2 hours ago, Alex Simmons said:

Just they are unlikely to be quite as fast as they are in the UK and as such comparing records there with records elsewhere is not really apples with apples.

The last state TTT championships I did (about 5 years ago) they were on an agricultural backroad, with 2 bumpy fords with water across them, and a few sections of gravel. I have never ridden a Tri on a road anywhere near as bumpy as that was.

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

The last state TTT championships I did (about 5 years ago) they were on an agricultural backroad, with 2 bumpy fords with water across them, and a few sections of gravel. I have never ridden a Tri on a road anywhere near as bumpy as that was.

Come over here and ride a sporting course, you'll have a new level of appreciation for Aussie roads! 😎

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25 minutes ago, FatPom said:

Come over here and ride a sporting course, you'll have a new level of appreciation for Aussie roads! 😎

Do you finish with a spray of cow manure from the guy in front's back wheel? :)

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1 minute ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Do you finish with a spray of cow manure from the guy in front's back wheel? :)

Yes and much worse, slurry quite a lot. The problem with cow crap and mud here is that it hides the pot holes. Seen far too many broken aero wheels due to roads that look just muddy, when in fact they hide a lot of dangers.

One of my courses has 4 cattle grids on it, get that wrong and it's orbit time!

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8 hours ago, FatPom said:

One of my courses has 4 cattle grids on it, get that wrong and it's orbit time!

The first real Triathlon I did had a few cattle grids. You know they're coming up because of all the hubcaps laying about on the side of the road, then 2nd lap because of all the bidons. :)

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14 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

The first real Triathlon I did had a few cattle grids. You know they're coming up because of all the hubcaps laying about on the side of the road, then 2nd lap because of all the bidons. :)

or the guy sat on the side of the road with his hand on his collar bone!

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11 minutes ago, FatPom said:

or the guy sat on the side of the road with his hand on his collar bone!

We were tougher then. :)

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Back to strength and running. Just to show how open minded and mentally agile you need to be, a systematic review and meta analysis on this subject was published this week. Does strong hip muscles stop your knee collapsing inwards with sporting activity?

5 papers found no relationship between hip strength and medial knee collapse, 3 found strong hip muscles associated with medial knee collapse, 8 found weak hip muscles associated with medial knee collapse.

but changes only with single leg ballistic activity (still to read full text so unsure if this means run or hop) and no difference with single leg squat or two legged ballistic activity. So medial collapse is context specific.

my take: concrete prescriptions of low load hip strength ex’s (clam, band ex’s etc) May help with pain but are not certain to change the way you move under load

 

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11 hours ago, FatPom said:

There are a load of TTers here, whilst still fast, that just won't take the risk any more. 

I have coached such riders including said world record rider I mentioned earlier. They abandoned racing on such courses a long time back.

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On 03/06/2018 at 10:46 AM, Fitness Buddy said:

Interesting. 

When I ran at my best I used to run steadily to the base of a reasonably steep hill and then run up the hill 5-6 times with 100% on form, knee drive and pushing all the way(hip extension). Then run easy home. ****ing tough set. And I noticed that I could demolish my normal rolling run routes and stay in better form for the whole time. Awesome feeling. 

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22 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

Interesting. 

When I ran at my best I used to run steadily to the base of a reasonably steep hill and then run up the hill 5-6 times with 100% on form, knee drive and pushing all the way(hip extension). Then run easy home. ****ing tough set. And I noticed that I could demolish my normal rolling run routes and stay in better form for the whole time. Awesome feeling. 

In the rain

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10 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

In the rain

Not all the time. 

Usually the humidity of Central Queensland. In the hottest part of the day. 

I'd sometimes get home seeing silver dots/stars and stumble in the front door and sleep on the tiles for a while until I came to. I'd wake up with two bidons of water next to me and one of electrolyte. My wife at the time understood what I was doing. ✌️

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51 minutes ago, FFF1077 said:

Interesting. 

When I ran at my best I used to run steadily to the base of a reasonably steep hill and then run up the hill 5-6 times with 100% on form, knee drive and pushing all the way(hip extension). Then run easy home. ****ing tough set. And I noticed that I could demolish my normal rolling run routes and stay in better form for the whole time. Awesome feeling. 

Be interesting what age you where then I am big believer in after 30's actual strength training is more beneficial to an athlete then continual loading via cardio vascular training output.  

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26 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Be interesting what age you where then I am big believer in after 30's actual strength training is more beneficial to an athlete then continual loading via cardio vascular training output.  

Mid 30's 

Fittest and healthiest I've been. 

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2 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Be interesting what age you where then I am big believer in after 30's actual strength training is more beneficial to an athlete then continual loading via cardio vascular training output.  

Beneficial for what

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5 to 8 hill repeats (30  to 45 seconds)hard run then easy down.

seems to do some good. Good thing for run economy is run frequently and do striders at back end if runs.

negative splitting long run

once done that for a while one threshold session never fails. Start each winter at over 20 min 5 k pace then end up running half marathon pace at 410

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On 27/05/2018 at 12:33 PM, Tyno said:

1RM is 1 rep max.

You're doing 10 reps at 90 kg, but have you ever tried to see just how heavy you can go for a single?

if its ~110 you're at around the right weight.

 

 

OK, so tried this today. 110 is doable but 115 impossible for me, so I guess my 1RM is 110.

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12 hours ago, FFF1077 said:

Mid 30's 

Fittest and healthiest I've been. 

Was that when you were doing PT sessions with your mate too

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10 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Recently started doing some weights just to keep some of the Baywatch muscles going

I am not muscly far from it.  

Intersting at the two gyms I work I get ridiculed for doing endurance actvities and in the endurance world get ridiculed for doing strength work.

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10 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Beneficial for what

Doesnt matter what I write in response so my best response give it a go and find out.  I don't mean go and do machine weights do movement based weights.  

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17 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

I am not muscly far from it.  

Intersting at the two gyms I work I get ridiculed for doing endurance actvities and in the endurance world get ridiculed for doing strength work.

Then you post something on Transitions that you know from experience is of great benefit to many readers of the forum and some tool always comes along and ridicules - but when you see the race results of these guys there whole life is strewn with excuses and negativity - so I personally treat it like speaking to a large group of people - you speak to those who are paying attention - not to the heckler who is in love with the sound of his own voice - or the guy who is making paper aeroplanes in the front row 

Keep doing what you know is right - share the knowledge and the intelligent ones will take it on board - my experience from PMs send that there is a large number of intelligent readers of this forum who are open to ideas, but remain quiet and listen 😏

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50 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Was that when you were doing PT sessions with your mate too

Yes. 

But I didn't do as much pt as I did hills. 

 

It was mostly boezoo single leg squats and TRX type full body cables and core stuff. 

I also did "some" plyo stuff from the book Going Long. 

 

Reading that back surprises me in two ways.... 

 

FARK I had lots of free time prior to my daughter being born. 

 

And 

 

Geez I actually did do a reasonable amount of strength stuff.. 

 

Interesting 🤔🤔

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The diffierence is Fitness Buddy doesn’t post with a self promoting, arrogant, condescending tone, that be littles others. 

Then attack the person if a poster doesn’t agree with him.

 

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1 hour ago, FFF1077 said:

Yes. 

But I didn't do as much pt as I did hills. 

 

It was mostly boezoo single leg squats and TRX type full body cables and core stuff. 

I also did "some" plyo stuff from the book Going Long. 

 

Reading that back surprises me in two ways.... 

 

FARK I had lots of free time prior to my daughter being born. 

 

And 

 

Geez I actually did do a reasonable amount of strength stuff.. 

 

Interesting 🤔🤔

How do we know the PT sessions didnt benefit the other training?  We will never know.  But considering the outcome you had we can quietly say it may have had along with the other stuff.  The issue here is people want data and studies to justify everything your case here is a study in itself.  You stated you were at your fittest and healthiest and were doing a mixture of training methods not solely reliant on one form.  The strength may or may not have transfered over but it did give your another training session which lessened load on joints, gave the CV system and bit of break and stimulated the nervous system in another way.

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If I didn't believe that it would help, having read the fact via Going Long etc, I would not have done it. 

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7 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Doesnt matter what I write in response so my best response give it a go and find out.  I don't mean go and do machine weights do movement based weights.  

Try engaging with a curious mindset. I agree weights are good and do them. 

 

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Shannon Noll  endorses it

Edited by Merv

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I'm big on weights.  When I was a superstar triathlete I used to train and race a lot, but had man boobies.  Now I work out all the time and never do any cardio and am ripped.  I would encourage people not to believe all the lies around cardio.

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3 minutes ago, Mank said:

I'm big on weights.  When I was a superstar triathlete I used to train and race a lot, but had man boobies.  Now I work out all the time and never do any cardio and am ripped.  I would encourage people not to believe all the lies around cardio.

can't flex cardio, bra

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55 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

can't flex cardio, bra

Correct.  Also from an evolutionary perspective, in cave times you basically had a fight or flee response, so that for example if a lion attacked your tribe you could run away, or stand your ground and like bench press the yellow f&cker right out of there.  Which didn’t have the same success rate on a lion-by-lion basis, but overall meant more chance of passing on your genes, because your existing kids wouldn’t get eaten while you were running off into the jungle, but also because the chicks who were coupled up with the running-off types would get the picture real fast.  Same thing happens today - lot of unhappy thin guys around.

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