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Any benefit from strength work/lifting

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I hate pushing a wheel barrow. 

So I go to a PT once a week.  Small studio no mirrors etc.  We do a lot of work with kettle bells & functional movement.  I enjoy the change from swim, ride, run.

i also started trail running & my Ironman run times have dropped from 5hrs to 4:02

I'm confident I can get my run down to a 3:40/50 in my next race.

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7 hours ago, Parkside said:

There is ample evidence out there that resistance training improves endurance sport results, you can do a simple search and find studies showing improved economy, run and cycle TT times if you want to. Finding a tri coach who is willing to use them may be harder.

Running yes there seems to be a bit more evidence on the economy side of things, but for endurance cycling the body of evidence is fairly equivocal. Yes you can find studies that show a positive benefit however there are also studies that show a negative impact, and not one single study on use of strength training for endurance cycling demonstrates better results than doing specific on-bike interval work (and effect sizes from strength training groups are pretty small). You can't just cherry pick the studies and data that support your belief.

Edited by Alex Simmons

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15 hours ago, AP said:

I call it "military type strength work" - it works - a combination of natural movements often through a larger range of movement than what's required in our sport

 

I called them compound exercises (buggers me if that's an actual thing). Can't stand weights as such. So things like Turkish Get Ups, Wood Chops etc, holding a lightish dumbbell. Usually about 4 or 5 different things. I have copies of the YouTube vids so I can remember them. Done as a superset a few times a week.

As AP says..... Didn't do them anywhere near enough. Shock horror I know! I could use the more specific core work more I'd say.

Edited by goughy

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Strength work 2x/week has been a Godsend, and I'm sure helped with knees rehab (though it took a long time to figure out what leg exercises I could do without making things worse).

These strength workouts are a hard & fast circuit of exercises (go thru the circuit 3x) where my HR will get to 150-160 on some (boxing & kettlebell). Only takes about 21-25mins so can easily do in my lunch hour, and consists of 7-8 of these (I mix it up).

  • Skipping (40-50 double-jumps)
  • Crab walk for glutes/hips with thera band (18 one way, 18 the other)
  • Deadlifts 40-55kg (10 reps)
  • Benchpress 40-50kg (10-15 reps) - sad that I can almost bench same as I deadlift, but there is an important clue in there!
  • Pullups (7 reps)
  • Chinups (6-7 reps)
  • Half-superman (12 reps)
  • Crunches (15 reps)
  • Kettlebell swings 20kg (10 reps)
  • Boxing (1min sparing and punching on bag) - this kills me!  Used to love the speed ball too, very aerobic, but it broke and has not been replaced at gym.
  • Sissy squats, using arms on frame for balance (10 reps) - this really blasts the quads

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Tri seasons over, must be time to get back in the gym.

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Not many triathletes dont like it because it doesnt come with the slogans and words like

CARBON

AERO

WATTAGE

Many rather spend money to purchase an item which is marketed as making you faster.  

Strength training takes effort and discipline  can be done simply at home.

Then we hear not enough time but we have time to take a selfie, post to FB and instagram and upload data.

You can do alot in 10mins and even including some in your running sessions can be beneficial IMO

 

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On Sunday, October 02, 2016 at 6:30 AM, AA7 said:

Rinny does strength and conditioning work

 

 

Yep with Erin Carson at Rally Sport Boulder

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On 02/05/2017 at 10:23 AM, Fitness Buddy said:

Not many triathletes dont like it because it doesnt come with the slogans and words like

CARBON

AERO

WATTAGE

Many rather spend money to purchase an item which is marketed as making you faster.  

Strength training takes effort and discipline  can be done simply at home.

Then we hear not enough time but we have time to take a selfie, post to FB and instagram and upload data.

You can do alot in 10mins and even including some in your running sessions can be beneficial IMO

 

Dude, try eating some of those chips on ur shoulders. Ur sounding a little hangry

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29 minutes ago, Turts said:

Dude, try eating some of those chips on ur shoulders. Ur sounding a little hangry

Ha just revisting this thread.  

My garmin should be able to tell me if i am hangry.  Oops i dont have one so i am not an athlete

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1 hour ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Yep with Erin Carson at Rally Sport Boulder

close to three minutes of selfy video with more gratuitous from behind swimsuit angle than corky

"

"Then we hear not enough time but we have time to take a selfie, post to FB and instagram and upload data."

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23 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Ha just revisting this thread.  

My garmin should be able to tell me if i am hangry.  Oops i dont have one so i am not an athlete

And nothing's changed.........

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13 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Ha just revisting this thread.  

My garmin should be able to tell me if i am hangry.  Oops i dont have one so i am not an athlete

FB, my year 7 pdhpe classes know when it's time to shutup and stop adding fuel to the fire better than you do. 

 

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Quote

i also started trail running & my Ironman run times have dropped from 5hrs to 4:02

I'm confident I can get my run down to a 3:40/50 in my next race.

From this statement to retirement - what happened along the way BoW :huh:

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Use it or lose it; at 55 years old strength training is more important than ever.

I never did any until the last couple of years and actually quite like it.

But one thing has never changed ..... why is it that when I leave the gym I feel like Arnie but look like Mr Bean?  :lol:

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Finding this guys stuff, in my search for a way to get my knees back got me into the gym again.  I combined Kelsey's thinking with that of one of those old 80+ Kona guys (Hollander?) about the need to keep the telomeres long & healthy by going intense regularly, but that does not mean going intense for long.   My gym circuits take 22-25mins, but with minimal (10-20sec) rest between exercises, HR gets up to 150-160.

Kelsey makes a lot of sense to me about how to remain fit for life as you pass the wrong side of 40 (though he thinks with our sedentary lifestyles, 35 is now the new 40).

http://dougkelsey.com/doug-kelsey/

 

 

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3 hours ago, KieranR said:

 I came across this earlier today.  Are any of these actually going to help me?

 

https://www.active.com/triathlon/articles/mark-allen-s-12-best-strength-exercises 

Mark Allen big advocate

Dave Scott a big advocate

Chrissie Wellington a big advocate - from 6:18.     Her previous coach didnt like it but when she moved to another coach it improved her running especially

 

Edited by Fitness Buddy

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And Deek famously avoided stretching, while Kenny Bekele was worried that getting massages from a masseuse that worked with other athletes might mess with his mojo...

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14 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Mark Allen big advocate

Dave Scott a big advocate

It's pretty simple really if you want to age well - you need to keep everything working well - look after your diet to keep internal organs working well - maintain your strength, especially in the muscles you don't use much in your normal exercise routine

There is a big difference between the one eyed approach which suggests that you only get better at swimming cycling and running by swimming cycling and running and the other group who maintain the ability to swim cycle and run well by remaining uninjured and maintaining strength and flexibility

You can add me to the list with Dave and Mark - I have felt some resistance from athletes when I suggest incorporating strength work into their training routine but almost without exception they feel a real benefit in being able to hold a good posture well into their marathons - and they keep winning their categories against people who don't do the alternative stuff we do😎

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26 minutes ago, AP said:

It's pretty simple really if you want to age well - you need to keep everything working well - look after your diet to keep internal organs working well - maintain your strength, especially in the muscles you don't use much in your normal exercise routine

There is a big difference between the one eyed approach which suggests that you only get better at swimming cycling and running by swimming cycling and running and the other group who maintain the ability to swim cycle and run well by remaining uninjured and maintaining strength and flexibility

You can add me to the list with Dave and Mark - I have felt some resistance from athletes when I suggest incorporating strength work into their training routine but almost without exception they feel a real benefit in being able to hold a good posture well into their marathons - and they keep winning their categories against people who don't do the alternative stuff we do😎

This is exactly why I have started doing Crossfit 3 times a week.

 

 

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9 hours ago, AP said:

It's pretty simple really if you want to age well - you need to keep everything working well - look after your diet to keep internal organs working well - maintain your strength, especially in the muscles you don't use much in your normal exercise routine

There is a big difference between the one eyed approach which suggests that you only get better at swimming cycling and running by swimming cycling and running and the other group who maintain the ability to swim cycle and run well by remaining uninjured and maintaining strength and flexibility

You can add me to the list with Dave and Mark - I have felt some resistance from athletes when I suggest incorporating strength work into their training routine but almost without exception they feel a real benefit in being able to hold a good posture well into their marathons - and they keep winning their categories against people who don't do the alternative stuff we do😎

AP and me agree on something! 

The thing I've found is, it's very much an individual based belief as to whether it works for you or not.

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I agree it's necessary. I agree I'd be injured without it. But man oh man does it adversely affect the rest of my training. Apparently it takes me longer than "normal people" to recover from the sessions.

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8 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

I agree it's necessary. I agree I'd be injured without it. But man oh man does it adversely affect the rest of my training. Apparently it takes me longer than "normal people" to recover from the sessions.

BF, its cos youre special 😊

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29 minutes ago, Surfer said:

BF, its cos youre special 😊

Nawwww  Even my mother never said that 😉

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14 hours ago, BogFrog said:

I agree it's necessary. I agree I'd be injured without it. But man oh man does it adversely affect the rest of my training. Apparently it takes me longer than "normal people" to recover from the sessions.

What you're doing is probably too much or the wrong sort of stuff - all I have my guys do is chin ups - push ups - lunges - and core work - the whole lot is only 20-25min added to a swim session - it appears to be enough because we're getting positive results across an age range of 24 to 75yrs - all are showing positive results from minimal but very regular - on the chin ups those not strong enough in the upper bodies start out using two bike tubes thrown over the bar and used as a stirrup - they soon build strength in this movement 

I think a lot of cross fit or strength and conditioning coaches want you to build your triathlon training around their sessions instead of strength and conditioning being a smaller but regular part of a triathlon program

We even punctuate long runs with 10 push ups every 10min - usually at drink stops - this allows the athlete to run the long run as a series of "fresh starts" focusing on good technique for 10min at a time - then switching off - then switching back on again - so they become very good at switching "good technique" on - on cue 😎

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11 minutes ago, AP said:

What you're doing is probably too much or the wrong sort of stuff ...

We even punctuate long runs with 10 push ups every 10min - usually at drink stops - this allows the athlete to run the long run as a series of "fresh starts" focusing on good technique for 10min at a time - then switching off - then switching back on again - so they become very good at switching "good technique" on - on cue 😎

Don't think so - two sessions, one about 15mins, the other about 25min. When i start back this weekend I'll only manage 10-15.  Strength and stability around my core, mostly single leg upright stuff minus lunges.

And stopping every 10mins on my long run would wreck my head. 

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21 minutes ago, AP said:

What you're doing is probably too much or the wrong sort of stuff - all I have my guys do is chin ups - push ups - lunges - and core work - the whole lot is only 20-25min added to a swim session - it appears to be enough because we're getting positive results across an age range of 24 to 75yrs - all are showing positive results from minimal but very regular - on the chin ups those not strong enough in the upper bodies start out using two bike tubes thrown over the bar and used as a stirrup - they soon build strength in this movement 

I think a lot of cross fit or strength and conditioning coaches want you to build your triathlon training around their sessions instead of strength and conditioning being a smaller but regular part of a triathlon program

We even punctuate long runs with 10 push ups every 10min - usually at drink stops - this allows the athlete to run the long run as a series of "fresh starts" focusing on good technique for 10min at a time - then switching off - then switching back on again - so they become very good at switching "good technique" on - on cue 😎

The last part is spot on.  The amount of people who stop and walk during races yet see it as evil during training.  It does provided a mental refresh.   

 

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7 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

Don't think so - two sessions, one about 15mins, the other about 25min. When i start back this weekend I'll only manage 10-15.  Strength and stability around my core, mostly single leg upright stuff minus lunges.

And stopping every 10mins on my long run would wreck my head. 

The single leg stuff is great but is it strength work or stability strength you are working on.   The single leg stuff is accessory to real strength stuff.  Heavy Squats, and Deadlifts if your trainer has been doing his job they would have had your movement pattern sorted so you can do this.  Multi directional lunges are a neccesity for linear moving athletes to break out of the continual straight ahead movmements associated with running and cycling, this builds better hip control, adductor strength.

The single leg stuff needs to done correctly as well. 

Single leg Squat - so if you are doing like the sitting one you are doing it wrong.

 

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Not many of the supplemental exercises proposed here are actually strength* exercises. Which is part of the problem with these debates. Strength means different things to different people.

I'd call most of them a form of resistance training and for the most part they are conditioning exercises, not strength exercises.

 

* Strength in a specific exercise physiology sense.

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Stability and conditioning is what I am doing I guess. Conditioning to enable me to correctly hold form when SBRing.

Would pure strength work benefit us in that regard? 

Lots of PTs prescribe lunges, but some knees complain (personally, have soft cartridge and have been told no lunges and no twisting exercises)

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2 hours ago, BogFrog said:

Stability and conditioning is what I am doing I guess. Conditioning to enable me to correctly hold form when SBRing.

To hold correct form when SBRing, simply hold correct form when SBRing. Nothing in the gym can simulate that.

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2 minutes ago, The Customer said:

To hold correct form when SBRing, simply hold correct form when SBRing. Nothing in the gym can simulate that.

disagree with you on that one.  Stability work is essential for me and I can see so many runners out there who could do with work - wobbly knees on landing, hips that splay etc

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12 hours ago, BogFrog said:

Stability and conditioning is what I am doing I guess. Conditioning to enable me to correctly hold form when SBRing.

Would pure strength work benefit us in that regard? 

Lots of PTs prescribe lunges, but some knees complain (personally, have soft cartridge and have been told no lunges and no twisting exercises)

What the heavy weight training gives endurance athletes that the lighter, circuit-type routines do not is a much stronger emphasis on joint integrity. When performed correctly, lifting heavy can almost be viewed as being protective. When you load the muscle tissue and joints with heavy weight, something called bone osteoblasts occurs. This process strengthens tendons, ligaments and collagen, making them more resilient. Lifting heavy will also increase bone density, protecting against the breaks and stress fractures which are common problems for many endurance athletes. Lifting heavy will also increase production of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), the protein related to producing new brain cells that improve cognitive function.

Sourced from stack.com   

Edited by Fitness Buddy
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31 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

What the heavy weight training gives endurance athletes that the lighter, circuit-type routines do not is a much stronger emphasis on joint integrity. When performed correctly, lifting heavy can almost be viewed as being protective. When you load the muscle tissue and joints with heavy weight, something called bone osteoblasts occurs. This process strengthens tendons, ligaments and collagen, making them more resilient. Lifting heavy will also increase bone density, protecting against the breaks and stress fractures which are common problems for many endurance athletes. Lifting heavy will also increase production of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), the protein related to producing new brain cells that improve cognitive function.

 

Judging by the meatheads that lift at my work gym, I'm calling BS on that one. B)

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7 minutes ago, FatPom said:

Judging by the meatheads that lift at my work gym, I'm calling BS on that one. B)

Tipping those guys be using weight belts, maybe using some form of stimulant or other substance.  Only completing half a movement mainly the concentric element as the eccentric part is the real part of the exercise.  

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5 minutes ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Tipping those guys be using weight belts, maybe using some form of stimulant or other substance.  Only completing half a movement mainly the concentric element as the eccentric part is the real part of the exercise.  

Or maybe it's because those with brains actually do that shit properly - maybe because they asked a pro and sought the right info. 

 

Chicken egg. 

(But it's the chicken, cos dinos laid eggs which gave rise to chooks)

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1 hour ago, Fitness Buddy said:

Tipping those guys be using weight belts, maybe using some form of stimulant or other substance.  Only completing half a movement mainly the concentric element as the eccentric part is the real part of the exercise.  

They use belts, loads of grunting, drop the weights a lot, then walk around in a small circle and take a selfie.

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2 hours ago, Fitness Buddy said:

What the heavy weight training gives endurance athletes that the lighter, circuit-type routines do not is a much stronger emphasis on joint integrity. When performed correctly, lifting heavy can almost be viewed as being protective. When you load the muscle tissue and joints with heavy weight, something called bone osteoblasts occurs. This process strengthens tendons, ligaments and collagen, making them more resilient. Lifting heavy will also increase bone density, protecting against the breaks and stress fractures which are common problems for many endurance athletes. Lifting heavy will also increase production of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), the protein related to producing new brain cells that improve cognitive function.

 

probably should give credit for that: http://www.stack.com/a/why-endurance-athletes-need-to-lift-heavy-weights

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5 hours ago, The Customer said:

To hold correct form when SBRing, simply hold correct form when SBRing. Nothing in the gym can simulate that.

The customer is correct and speaks truth

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9 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

The customer is correct and speaks truth

The Customer is actually partially right. Recent research shows all the “functional” training trying to imitate mid stance or push off and using bosu, bands or other bits to simulate specific running posture while doing “strength” training has zero carryover to change in running biomechanics. Clams, hip hitches etc etc. Running retraining on the other hand using different sorts of feedback while running has been shown to be effective in changing running biomechanics.

FB is partially correct (or his source) in that large compound movements like squat and deadlift will improve your strength, help bone density and tendon strength. Programming serious strength training into an endurance athlete’s year has been shown to work in improving physiology of running, efficiency etc. Just that no one wants to do it properly.

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I thought one of the benefits of the doing lots of slow runs was that it helped increased bone density?

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High impact or heavy loading needed to increase bone density

one study in the last few years did show brisk walking/slow running was beneficial for disc health in the lower back compared to inactivity 

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