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japay1

Any benefit from strength work/lifting

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When I didn't have my bike for 6 months in Doha last year, I was running 4 days a week ( 12 -20k per session ) and doing S&C 3 days a week for an hour. As a 53 year old it did make me look good and lean - just ask me.

 

As the muscle mass issue has been discussed, what about the benefit to the middle aged like me as far as all the tendons and ligaments around the muscles. Do the S&C sessions help things other than muscle?

 

There has also been a belief that doing the S&C sessions will assist in keeping form when fatigue sets in on the run. How much truth is there in that, or is it also more a play on the mental aspect - if you believe it, it's true.

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Most runners get ITB because they run too much to intensely.

Really? Care to back that up with proof/facts?

 

I hate strength work. Hate it. Really hate it. Hate the DOMS it causes that forces a rest day. But I do it as it is necessary. Those of you that think that just running more, cycling more and swimming more is going to give you the required strength are deluded. Weak glute Med? Run more? Need more propulsion when running? Run more? Seriously? Strength work works. Simples.

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You can look at many aspects and daily routines we do in life and then ask yourself are they going to help me SBR.

Examples

- sitting in office chair

- eating shit

- drinking alcohol

- not getting enough sleep

- stress

- driving using your mobile phone

 

None of the above help with performance or help with maintining body capable of achieving goals related to SBR where as some form of STRENGTH AND CONDITIONING/BODY MAINTENANCE will provide a positive rather than negative effect both physically and mentally.

 

I get it now. Bit like saying playing Twister is better for your triathlon performance than slamming your head in the car door.

 

Going back to something I said on page 1, turning up to a SBR session with weight lifting fatigue in your body will NOT have a physical or mental benefit to your SBR performance/development.

NB. I have a vague recollection of learning about periodisation in High School phys ed. Try finding a day within the 7 day week to slot in a weight lifting session that will not impact the next SBR session?!?!? You might see pro athletes in the gym during their 'off' season when it won't impact more important SBR sessions of the pre-race and race seasons.

 

As for gym sessions making you look good, seen plenty of rock hard bodies crawling just as fast along the Queen K as the wine loving 'softer' looking types.

Edited by The Customer

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Really? Care to back that up with proof/facts?

 

I hate strength work. Hate it. Really hate it. Hate the DOMS it causes that forces a rest day. But I do it as it is necessary. Those of you that think that just running more, cycling more and swimming more is going to give you the required strength are deluded. Weak glute Med? Run more? Need more propulsion when running? Run more? Seriously? Strength work works. Simples.

There are many studies showing strength work works for strength, not for running. You can find them on Pubmed

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They did find that for the sedentary person that there was benefit from strength work for running etc, mostly attributed to these people doing anything

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I think a lot of assumption that strength work means lifting heavy to fatigue which no one supports for either sport. Numerous articles focused on top cyclists and swimmers say they incorporate some workouts in the gym using complex (non-isolating) exercises to compliment outside work.

 

Was just thinking, is deep water running effectively a strength workout if done right?

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Marcinik, McCartney (1991) showed increase for untrained people, these people only tested for 12 minutes

 

Hickson showed heavily trained athletes got stronger but had no improvement in cycling or running from the added strength work.

 

Bastiaan showed that while you might not increase performance you can take some riding out of the programme and not lose much, uo to 37 %

 

Tanaka in swimming showed strengthe increases but no performance increase.

 

The studies, not articles, show little to no improvement for SBR. One study showed it could let you reduce SBR, but it was isolated. Hawlely concludes little to no benefit for endurance athletes.

 

Issue with adding this, is the fatigue it induces reducing the ability to perform as well in SBR. All said there is nothing wrong with getting stronger if that makes you happy.

 

Imbalance and injury prevention, is often cited as a rationale. Though it won't do much for overuse which is a significant cause of injury.

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I read an article some time ago (I can't remember where it was from), that strength training will not have significant benefit towards triathletes or endurance athletes, it will not make them go faster, however it will make them a more balanced athlete.

 

If strength training can make triathletes go faster, then all those crossfitters or obstacle racers will be able to go faster than a triathlete, BUT it is not happening.

 

The article also states that specific functional training, which most of the pros and top agers do, will provide more benefit to the athlete compared to strength training itself.

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Marcinik, McCartney (1991) showed increase for untrained people, these people only tested for 12 minutes

 

Hickson showed heavily trained athletes got stronger but had no improvement in cycling or running from the added strength work.

 

Bastiaan showed that while you might not increase performance you can take some riding out of the programme and not lose much, uo to 37 %

 

Tanaka in swimming showed strengthe increases but no performance increase.

 

The studies, not articles, show little to no improvement for SBR. One study showed it could let you reduce SBR, but it was isolated. Hawlely concludes little to no benefit for endurance athletes.

 

Issue with adding this, is the fatigue it induces reducing the ability to perform as well in SBR. All said there is nothing wrong with getting stronger if that makes you happy.

 

Imbalance and injury prevention, is often cited as a rationale. Though it won't do much for overuse which is a significant cause of injury.

 

Can you post the actual links to these articles/studies? I have found a few (looked up Hickson and endurance) and didn't find anything stating that strength training wouldn't help - in fact the opposite. I also note that these studies seem to focus on heavy resistence training 3 times a week. That amount of strength training could be detrimental to performance, but none of the studies I found focused on activity specific strength training once to twice a week which is what I believe works.

 

I also read an article that stated that endurance athletes that did strength work were less injured and faded less in the latter stages of races...

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I think the bottom line is of course it can benefit most people but the difficulty is in finding time to do it and integrate with an already busy training week without affecting recovery.

 

In 99% of the cases you are probably going to get best bang for your buck by swimming, riding or running a bit more.

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Can you post the actual links to these articles/studies? I have found a few (looked up Hickson and endurance) and didn't find anything stating that strength training wouldn't help - in fact the opposite. I also note that these studies seem to focus on heavy resistence training 3 times a week. That amount of strength training could be detrimental to performance, but none of the studies I found focused on activity specific strength training once to twice a week which is what I believe works.

 

I also read an article that stated that endurance athletes that did strength work were less injured and faded less in the latter stages of races...

They are all from the Phil Skiba Book, most of the references fairly old so their may be some new research:

 

hickson Potential for strenght and endurance training to amplify endurance performance. J. Appl. Phys 65(5) 2285-90 1988

Bastianns was interesting as he found that you could take out timr in the saddle and not lose bike fitness by doing weights, debunking interference theory.

 

From my n=1 found that with weights, it is hard not to get muscle fatigue, assuming the goal is to overload the muscle, which does impact sbr.

 

With time constrained (12-17 hours a week) I do know that I will get more SBR performance from doing more SBR than strength.

 

In time the goal might change, but right now I don't mind looking a bit hungry, in a year or two I might want to be more baywatch

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Hickson showed heavily trained athletes got stronger but had no improvement in cycling or running from the added strength work.

 

 

 

Hawlely concludes little to no benefit for endurance athletes.

 

 

Someone should tell Jason English there's no benefit for cycling or endurance athletes. He works full time as a PE teacher, and does regular weight sessions to supplement his riding. He would probably like the spare time.

 

He's won the 24 hour World MTB Championships, for the last 7 years.

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Someone should tell Jason English there's no benefit for cycling or endurance athletes. He works full time as a PE teacher, and does regular weight sessions to supplement his riding. He would probably like the spare time.

 

He's won the 24 hour World MTB Championships, for the last 7 years.

These guys have lots of hearty dicussions about lifting:

 

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/lifting_weights_%3D_slower_ironman_P882944/

 

Coogan and they guy desert dude are fairly well schooled in this.

 

This discussion is a bit like the politics thread, each point of view is entrenched and has little interest in change other than for the other point of view, regardless of the overwhelming scientific evidence.

 

Hypothesis

 

English wins bike races because he lifts weights

 

English wins bike races and lifts weights

 

English could win bike races by more if he did not lift weights

 

We will never know as I doubt he is going to let his career be subject to experiments, well maybe if we paid him. There are lts of examples of people who lift weights and win endurance races.

 

Jan Frodeno does not lift weights but kills it, he does do pilates though

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It is an interesting topic, but is so polarised, the discussion always becomes frustrated. We do know that biking improves biking, so I am out to ride for 90 minutes, I may even lift my wind trainer which is it is a cheap piece of rubbish gives me a strength workout

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It is an interesting topic, but is so polarised, the discussion always becomes frustrated.

 

Exactly. Triathletes, just like many others, have real issues with balance and moderation in most things. Most discussions here end up on the extreme end of the spectrum with little room for balance.

 

I don't see an issue with some big gear efforts or paddles in the pool. I don't seen an issue with older people doing light weights for their general health. I don't see an issue with triathletes who can't fit in either, just SBR'ing. I don't see an issue with people who do stuff just because they like it.

 

Balance and moderation, peace and love (spoken in Ringo's voice)!

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I think the bottom line is of course it can benefit most people but the difficulty is in finding time to do it and integrate with an already busy training week without affecting recovery.

 

In 99% of the cases you are probably going to get best bang for your buck by swimming, riding or running a bit more.

 

Yep, if you have done all the S,B,R that is optimal for you AND YOU STILL HAVE SPARE TIME TO COMMIT TO TRIATHLON, then stretch, do yoga, do core, lift weights prepare awesome meals etc etc.

 

None of things are bad for you, in fact they are all good for you and will probably help your triathlon skillset, IF YOU HAVE TIME. If not then S,B,R as much as is optimal.

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On a personal level, so n=1, I enjoy and think I benefit from some strength training. And by that I don't mean max lifts or anything.

 

In previous years I did some gym stuff, as well as SBR and felt tough. Last year I was doing a lot more running, bike/swim, and didn't have the time for the extra gym. I felt soft, and less tough towards the end of an event - and I'm talking long times - not fast.

 

So this year I'm getting back into the gym and doing weights in a way that challenges my core/body strength and position holding ability. So using machines that works the target muscle but only if you engage others to hold your position. And free weights and TRX moves. When you're heavy, body weight IS strength training! I find it really helps my back and shoulders on the bike, and form on the run. Not to mention day to day work and house renos.

 

I could find more time for SBR but find I feel better with a bit of weight stuff in there instead.

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I have gone from doing 10-20 hours a week of SBR for 10 years to doing weights 3-5 times a week and playing old fart soccer. Weights has been starting strength/5-3-1 stuff focussing on squat, deadlift, overhead press bench and some assistance exercises (RDL, chin-ups, bulgarian split squats).

 

I have posted on these type of threads before and can say from experience, if you are lifting above the traditional strength gain threshold (5-15 reps) then it will definitely impact on your ability to SBR , especially the R and fitting it into a "normal" triathlon program will be very difficult. Doing what I used to call a stretch and core session with bodyweight and theraband exercises can target injury prevention muscle impairments (glutes, abs etc) and produce gains in strength without impacting things like calf and quads function for running the next day. I know if I lift 5x5 at decent %1RM, I am unable to run properly the next day. If you are serious about building your ability to move weights around or put on some muscle mass then schedule it around a 6 week block with vastly reduced run volume and go for gold for starters.

 

I think I would have improved my triathlon performance by training less, managing fatigue and non-tri stress, eating less refined carbs and getting better/more sleep way more than getting bigger muscles. This may not apply to everyone, but definitely did to me.

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OK, here's a question from a guy that has to do some core work most days, just to function.

 

A while ago, I read a post from Parkside that said words to the effect of 'anyone suggesting 'firing glutes' was full of it ( I think he was referring to physios) but I never understood why.*

 

Also is the term 'contracting' and 'firing' the same thing?

 

* with apologies to Parky if I misread.

 

No you quoted me correctly.

 

There is a massive industry with activation, firing, compensation buzzwords thrown around willy-nilly. All bullshit.

 

Hamstring injuries or any lower limb soft tissue injury from "poor glute activation" is the biggy. Diagnosing this with your eyeballs or sticking a finger into a hamstring and a glute while you lift a leg off the bed are fraudulent practice IMO. Charismatic observation by industry authorities selling courses, books etc are the worst examples. Recent study finally debunked the prone leg raise, there is no normal or optimal sequence of back, glute and hammy muscle contraction in a non functional test like lifting your leg off the floor when lying on your stomach. Then extrapolating your made-up pathology to what happens when running is a further fallacy.

 

Looking at how you move functionally (video or observation) can give clues into ineffectual muscle function and guide exercise prescription when injured. Ideally having an objective benchmark using a valid and reliable strength test is the most useful way to guide what needs to be strengthened. Otherwise EMG using indwelling electrodes to measure "activation". But having your online trained PT or Masters Trained whatever telling you your glutes aren't firing based on nothing in particular, or a dodgy non weight bearing test is a waste of time.

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Â

No you quoted me correctly.

Â

There is a massive industry with activation, firing, compensation buzzwords thrown around willy-nilly. All bullshit.Â

Â

Hamstring injuries or any lower limb soft tissue injury from "poor glute activation" is the biggy. Diagnosing this with your eyeballs or sticking a finger into a hamstring and a glute while you lift a leg off the bed are fraudulent practice IMO. Charismatic observation by industry authorities selling courses, books etc are the worst examples. Recent study finally debunked the prone leg raise, there is no normal or optimal sequence of back, glute and hammy muscle contraction in a non functional test like lifting your leg off the floor when lying on your stomach. Then extrapolating your made-up pathology to what happens when running is a further fallacy.

Â

Looking at how you move functionally (video or observation) can give clues into ineffectual muscle function and guide exercise prescription when injured. Ideally having an objective benchmark using a valid and reliable strength test is the most useful way to guide what needs to be strengthened. Otherwise EMG using indwelling electrodes to measure "activation". But having your online trained PT or Masters Trained whatever telling you your glutes aren't firing based on nothing in particular, or a dodgy non weight bearing test is a waste of time.Â

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No you quoted me correctly.

 

There is a massive industry with activation, firing, compensation buzzwords thrown around willy-nilly. All bullshit.

 

Hamstring injuries or any lower limb soft tissue injury from "poor glute activation" is the biggy. Diagnosing this with your eyeballs or sticking a finger into a hamstring and a glute while you lift a leg off the bed are fraudulent practice IMO. Charismatic observation by industry authorities selling courses, books etc are the worst examples. Recent study finally debunked the prone leg raise, there is no normal or optimal sequence of back, glute and hammy muscle contraction in a non functional test like lifting your leg off the floor when lying on your stomach. Then extrapolating your made-up pathology to what happens when running is a further fallacy.

 

Looking at how you move functionally (video or observation) can give clues into ineffectual muscle function and guide exercise prescription when injured. Ideally having an objective benchmark using a valid and reliable strength test is the most useful way to guide what needs to be strengthened. Otherwise EMG using indwelling electrodes to measure "activation". But having your online trained PT or Masters Trained whatever telling you your glutes aren't firing based on nothing in particular, or a dodgy non weight bearing test is a waste of time.

Bang on Parkside. PT's and other strength and conditioning coaches are constantly uploading videos of them with an athlete yelling fire, activate, squeeze. it just seems like a load of crock to me. It just sounds stupid. Sure they may know what they are doing in terms of prescribing the right exercises, making plans, but all this yelling is just over the top and not even needed.

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Bang on Parkside. PT's and other strength and conditioning coaches are constantly uploading videos of them with an athlete yelling fire, activate, squeeze. it just seems like a load of crock to me. It just sounds stupid. Sure they may know what they are doing in terms of prescribing the right exercises, making plans, but all this yelling is just over the top and not even needed.Â

 

Where are these videos? I have never seen. Why are you even watching them? Videos like you are describing is whats wrong with fitness industry thing. It more about image, being tough, selfies, ego stuff. When the industry turned into rental schemes and along with internet social media it become more about selling yourself for the body image you present.

Then people get sucked into this. Thinking they can end up like the trainer (sorry but generally are few handy prescriptions have helped).

 

There are trainers who are in it for money just like any industry. Some for an ego boost and some who have interest in helping others. It is pretty easy to work it out either by doing a free trial at a gym and watching the trainers go about it or ask for a free session.

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Where are these videos? I have never seen. Why are you even watching them? Videos like you are describing is whats wrong with fitness industry thing. It more about image, being tough, selfies, ego stuff. When the industry turned into rental schemes and along with internet social media it become more about selling yourself for the body image you present.

Then people get sucked into this. Thinking they can end up like the trainer (sorry but generally are few handy prescriptions have helped).

 

There are trainers who are in it for money just like any industry. Some for an ego boost and some who have interest in helping others. It is pretty easy to work it out either by doing a free trial at a gym and watching the trainers go about it or ask for a free session.

I won't name names, but they're all over facebook. One of the biggest Strength and Conditioning companies based in Victoria is always over this kind of stuff.

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