Jump to content
japay1

Any benefit from strength work/lifting

Recommended Posts

Can you guys take your qualification argument to another topic?

 

I am interested in the original question and keen to see further discussions on topic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do weights if you gives you both physical and mental benefits that YOU can have a positive effect on your training.

 

Don't do it if you believe it doesn't

 

They only person who will know is you. You can read all the research articles you want but without actually trying it you won't.

 

A baby teaches itself to walk not read research on how too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep it on topic guys, start your own thread in the Sandbox if you want to have a degree validity exercise.

 

Oh, and don't be afraid to go for a walk before you post as well, life's too short to take everything personally

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about toning down the attitude FB?

I am in the process of converting the shed / studio in the back yard into a small weights room, so will be starting a weight program again regardless of the effects on my sports.

 

Primarily due to getting older I want to reduce the loss of muscle, but I am these days focusing on shorter cycling events such as CX and track anyway where there is more research in favour of weights work. Plus it's one more thing to be doing to take my mind off my wife's recent passing from cancer.

 

As to research articles, why not look into these? Many people far smarter than me have spent time looking into this, so why not see what they have to say and read research papers? Crazy I know but I actually enjoy searching for and reading journal articles on training methodologies and aerodynamics!

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am in the process of converting the shed / studio in the back yard into a small weights room, so will be starting a weight program again regardless of the effects on my sports.

ÃÃÃÂ

Primarily due to getting older I want to reduce the loss of muscle.

ÃÃÃÂ

Hi Dalai. I barely race these days but swim, mtb and run still, 2-4 sessions of each per week with no set routine. My pool was recently closed and I subbed in weights sessions for a change up and loved it. It had been 12 years or so since I had done it, but being over 40 my motivations were for general fitness/health balance like yours. Pool has re-opened but I have kept up the gym. I mix it up a bit but generally have three sessions I rotate through; back/biceps, chest/shoulders/triceps, legs. I try and do some guts each time.

 

Anyway, one mans unscientific obs on effect on SBR; none of the upper body stuff effects my riding in any great capacity. Legs can, but nothing which kills my session. Again, I am not trying to hit markers in training so specific sessions will probably be a different story. If I overdo either tricep stuff or lats, my swimming session can be a massive struggle. The nature of shortening all my muscles with strength work makes getting long and smooth in the water tough. I reckon 10secs per 100m cycle is the effect on me (ie, fresh I can swim on a 1.35 cycle on a good day, after a gym day I hide at the back and cruise on 1.45). Again, I am dormant so means diddly.

 

I reckon tri gives you really weird imbalances. I played Aussie rules footy about 4 years ago after a 10yr break. Lateral movement after 10yrs of single plane cycling running showed how much my stabilisers and other muscles had suffered. Similarly, my shoulders were pointy weird things with a massive imbalance front (over developed) to rear (atrophied).

Edited by Diamonds
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoyed my gym session at lunchtime today and my run after work. It's a good day..

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep it on topic guys, start your own thread in the Sandbox if you want to have a degree validity exercise.

 

Oh, and don't be afraid to go for a walk before you post as well, life's too short to take everything personally

Happily. At the end of the day it doesn't phase me what other people think of my opinion.

 

However, I think strength work is worth it's weight in gold. Finding a good coach though is difficult. Once you find a good coach then it should be i

 

2-3 sessions a week is what I believe you should be aiming for, however they shouldn't be taking away from your main sessions (i.e. lifting big meaning you can't ride or run for a few days after). 1 to sessions on legs and 1 to 2 sessions for core/back exercises.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Happily. At the end of the day it doesn't phase me what other people think of my opinion.

 

However, I think strength work is worth it's weight in gold. Finding a good coach though is difficult. Once you find a good coach then it should be i

 

2-3 sessions a week is what I believe you should be aiming for, however they shouldn't be taking away from your main sessions (i.e. lifting big meaning you can't ride or run for a few days after). 1 to sessions on legs and 1 to 2 sessions for core/back exercises.

For what purpose? Alex Simmons has shared his thoughts and experiences coaching over a long period of time at a high level and for SBR performance there is not a case to made for benefit.

 

If the objective is something else, strength, looks, not doing SBR so doing another activity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For what purpose? Alex Simmons has shared his thoughts and experiences coaching over a long period of time at a high level and for SBR performance there is not a case to made for benefit.

 

If the objective is something else, strength, looks, not doing SBR so doing another activity

 

I'm not sure Alex has a lot of experience with people swimming or running but the greater issue I have is that you're generalising that everyone is the same. Everyone is different and everyone will respond differently to training - even the same training. If I have particularly weak muscles somewhere I may well improve my running or cycling by specifically strengthening those muscles. If I have a particularly weak core I may benefit from strength training to get a better position in the water when swimming.

 

I don't really care what people do - but it's wrong to assume that the same set of instructions will work for every person, of every ability and every age. For anyone to say 'weights are absolutely unnecessary' is just as frivolous as someone saying "weights are absolutely essential". I think a better suggestion is "do what works for YOU".

 

As for you second point, I couldn't agree more. If you wanna do weights so you look good at the beach, then go ahead lift your nuts off.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Similarly, my shoulders were pointy weird things with a massive imbalance front (over developed) to rear (atrophied).

This is now the only "regular" strength work I'm doing. I do 10 minutes every day, with the occasional longer session working on balancing out my upper body. Since starting that, my shoulder issues have pretty much disappeared.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

​I feel like this thread is the battle in my head: "I know I need to do some strength/core work... I'm as crooked as a question mark come the end of a race... but if I just started the run being fresher off the bike... I could do another bike session and ignore core... rides bike"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most runners get ITB because they run too much to intensely.

 

I don't get on here often so am slow to reply and have not read the rest of the discussion after my post. So please forgive if this regresses the last few pages. ITB issues can be a problem of load, but ITB complaints (and other lower limb complaints) are generally a root issue with stability. As I alluded to earlier, I'm not talking about 1 RP max output or as Alex said maximal force production or hypertrophy exercises. Though this understanding is more correct and in that sense it is not the common understanding for non academics. BUT if people have stability issues specifically addressing them is proven to work. Specifically addressing stability in many cases will allow greater volume or workload.

So if you said: Too intensely OR too much for their condition you would be more correct. Addressing the underlying limiting condition will help resolve the sympton.

 

But looking at the theory:

 

strengthening of glute med and the other parts of the body through single leg squats makes the body less prone to ITB issues.

 

If I run and don't do these exercises I should be more prone to ITB issues?

Possibly. But not everyone is the same. Differences in susceptability can be a result of injuries, imbalances, atrophy, athlete history or just plain old genetics. Just like some people are naturally good at other things in life and others are not.

So we are clear I'm not talking about gym junkie work. I'm talking about a simple few exercises that practically work and are often used by therapists to resolve issues. It is about facilitating performance movement not outright force generation. Some people will need this work more than others.To me you tend to look for a recipe book on training on here which is just not how effective programming works. General rules like maximal force production training does not produce higher middle -long distance run speeds is rock solid. But the space between maximal force production and no complimentary work is large and open to exploitation for some athletes benefit.

 

I have found no useful information to support much if any stability training to support cycling performance expcept maybe a small amount of core work. Which is not surprising considering the relatively low weight bearing requirements. In running though, stabilising the torso and hips is beneficial. When these areas work correctly the smaller muscles further down the legs requires less stabiising activation to compensate. Read a book or two on stability and performance movement to aid your understanding in this area. In my opinion too many people concentrate on foot fall as an input when they should be concentrating on the hip stability first and foremost. Have a look at photos of athletes early then late in the run leg of HIM and IM races. Take note of how many do not have hips parallel to the ground. Whenever it is not it leads to more control /stability issues down the chain.

Edited by thekeeper
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not wanting to hijack this thread but someone earlier mention 'plyo', have we discussed this in another thread or would people agree plyometrics (spelling?) is strength? How useful & when to do it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not wanting to hijack this thread but someone earlier mention 'plyo', have we discussed this in another thread or would people agree plyometrics (spelling?) is strength? How useful & when to do it?

 

Plyo is power

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If strength training is beneficial for triathlon, why don't we see more body builders or weight lifters transitioning into the sport?

 

If finding a great PT who knows how to make you into a gun triathlete is soooo easy, how come all the PTs that show up to our little club races come last?

 

Why is it that all the age groupers that come from strength based sports and have done a lot of lifting in their lives stand out at races because they're the ones with the V-shaped Torso and toothpick legs waddling along at the BOP?

 

The athletes that adapt to triathlon the best come from an endurance background. eg rowers - endurance efforts at threshold.

Edited by The Customer
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who said anything about strength training is about getting huge.

 

You mentioned body builders they train to achieve muscle mass

Weight lifters train to gain power.

 

Other athletes run/cycle/swim based athletes can use strength training to achieve better posture, fix imbalances and also move better. The basic movement of a squat is something everyone should be able to achieve no weight just body weight. A poor squat indicates dysfunction and stiff joints namely the hips and ankles. The weight is not as important as the movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like the topic just went from 'lifting' to mobility issues. I'm all for Flex and Mobility. Can do that in 20mins before every run I do right here on the carpet without a piece of gym equipment or static stretch in sight.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If strength training is beneficial for triathlon, why don't we see more body builders or weight lifters transitioning into the sport?

Â

That is a very narrow view. No one has said they are training to get huge, eating six bbq chooks a day and wandering around with protein shakers.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a very narrow view. No one has said they are training to get huge, eating six bbq chooks a day and wandering around with protein shakers.

Spot on Diamonds I just think some assume gyms is all about getting huge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is a very narrow view. No one has said they are training to get huge, eating six bbq chooks a day and wandering around with protein shakers.

It's a very broad view. If there was any benefit in lifting and strength work in the gym we would see more strength based athletes doing well in Tri. Not even 1% of weight lifters or body builders have made the change to triathlon and become successful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

World Champion -

- training for both strength and stability.

 

World Champion -

- she says strength workouts. DEAD LIFTS

 

World Champion -

- squats (more power)

 

 

- minus the drugs could ride a bike better than most.

 

Multiple IM Wins -

- squats again. Notice the plank under feet (correcting lack of dorsiflexion to be able to complete movement better for his limitation. Try it yourself doing a body weight squat.

 

There are many more. Just remember it is about getting huge. Function.

 

I am posting for those who are interested in it not those rejecting it.

Edited by Fitness Buddy
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not even 1% of weight lifters or body builders have made the change to triathlon and become successful.

 

I'd be very surprised if even 1% of weight lifters or body builders had any interest at all in triathlon. You're drawing a very long bow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couldn't read all the pages here but I side with FB and I appreciate him sharing his views.

There is always lots to learn with dynamic movement, the body is so complicated! For instance, many PTs and sports doctors have blamed poor core strength on my injury issues but recently another specialist suggests I have poor foot mobility pushing stress up the leg chain. Regardless of the actual cause I found that when I ignore core strength and releasing my hips (TFL shortens) it seriously impacts my recovery and ability to train more.
I do think it is hard to find the most effective movements and to learn how to do them properly, first in isolation and then in sport specifically. But I do not think that negates the benefits of investing sometime in this space, each individual needs to try and figure out this stuff. If you have perfect mobility and bio-mechanics and can simply improve your run gait by thinking about it while you run, you are a legend!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet you go on to debate SBR strength via hills and paddles vs isolated movements, and then suggest FB doesn't know when people are just fishing/trolling. I see both sides of the story though. As a strength advocate I'm just saying targeted and correctly done strength work often has some benefit for triathletes, particularly ectomorphs and those over 40. Single joint body building exercises like leg extensions are of less benefit to triathletes than say single legged squats (done correctly). The OP may gets some benefit from 2 weekly circuits but the research, which is very poor, finds no real performance improvement, however if the OP investigates exercises targeting functional movement they're more likely to notice improvements, particularly with injury prevention. Each to his own though, it's a bit like the old stretching before exercise debate but let's save that for another thread! It's good to have contrarians around but let's do so without antagonising each other, this isn't ST.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just ordered Mark Rippetoe's books Starting Strength - Basic barbell training 3rd Edition and Practical Programming for Strength Training.

 

Will be interesting reading. ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.....has some benefit for triathletes, particularly ectomorphs and those over 40.

 

This.

 

If I'd done appropriate glute/hip/core/back strength work, and dropped a hard bike & swim session, I'm confident I'd still be able to do triathlon at a similar level rather than not being able to do it at all.

 

On the upside, since being back in the gym for 3yrs, I can pump yabbies like a madman.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I can pump yabbies like a madman

This is the best statement ever.

Assuming it's not a euphemism.......

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been exercising and playing sport since I was 8. I am now 57 and only missed 1 year competing due to a bike accident (mentioned in previous threads). I use strength training periodically (some years yes, some no). I have personally found it beneficial for all sports as well as my personal health. I have seen differences in the years I don't.

 

My personal experience is that it strengthens my whole body and keeps me in alignment, especially when fatigued. I have notice funnily that it helps me mentally outside of training. I am a desk jockey and it keeps me straight, supported this allowing less fatigue.

 

I have not done any strength work now for 4 months and I have suffered with posture and back pain, especially on my current holiday abroad. I will be back in Oz tomorrow and start my light strength work from Sunday.

 

My personal experience over many years is that it holds the body together better so you can train better as well as keeping my personal wellbeing. No science, just experimenting.

 

FM

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the best statement ever.

Assuming it's not a euphemism.......

 

Nah, about 5yrs ago I was fishing with my brother down at Narooma. Was trying to pump yabbies on the sand-flats for bait and was so weak from triathlon I was entirely crap at it.

 

He said "fair dinkum do you even pump yabbies ya triathlon poof, here give me the frikin pump" :lol:

Edited by ComfortablyNumb
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been exercising and playing sport since I was 8. I am now 57 and only missed 1 year competing due to a bike accident (mentioned in previous threads). I use strength training periodically (some years yes, some no). I have personally found it beneficial for all sports as well as my personal health. I have seen differences in the years I don't.

My personal experience is that it strengthens my whole body and keeps me in alignment, especially when fatigued. I have notice funnily that it helps me mentally outside of training. I am a desk jockey and it keeps me straight, supported this allowing less fatigue.

I have not done any strength work now for 4 months and I have suffered with posture and back pain, especially on my current holiday abroad. I will be back in Oz tomorrow and start my light strength work from Sunday.

My personal experience over many years is that it holds the body together better so you can train better as well as keeping my personal wellbeing. No science, just experimenting.

FM

Agree and can relate to all the points you made.

"Holding the body together so you can train better and personal well being." Best statement about Strength training on this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who said anything about strength training is about getting huge.

 

Just a comment on this.

 

An increase in strength can only be achieved in 2 ways.

 

Initially strength improves in response to strength training due to an initial neural gain as the body improves coordination and timing of the contraction of existing muscle fibres. However such initial gains are exhausted within a matter of weeks of undertaking strength training and thereafter any gains in strength can only be achieved via muscle hypertrophy, IOW increasing the cross sectional area of the muscles.

 

Now that doesn't mean getting "huge" but increasing strength in a sustainable manner requires increasing muscle cross sectional area / size.

 

Again, what people are calling strength, often isn't really about strength at all but something else.

 

And as I said in my earlier post: Don't expect miracles wrt endurance athletic performance, YMMV and life means there are reasons other than outright SBR performance that might mean such exercise has its place.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, skinnee said:

http://www.osteoporosis.org.au/sites/default/files/files/Exercise Fact Sheet 2nd Edition.pdf

swimming and cycling have no impact on bone health. Important to maintain bone health, stability as you get older.

Running, jogging, skipping or brisk walking are examples of far better exercises for BMD than lifting weights. It's the slight jarring of the skeletal system that seems to provide the best stimulus for bone regenerative growth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I think strength training (body weight or free weights) has its place to target imbalances e.g. glutes, shoulders for office workers and also in rehab work. After coming back to training after a heart op I will be using it to correct my own imbalances this winter.

Agree with comments you made earlier that sprint work / vo2 Max work is of far greater benefit to increase the s/b/r performance. Investing in a power meter for the bike > investing in gym membership.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This subject needs to be kept alive 

* Too many people lack simple functional strength - the type of strength that allows you to push a wheel barrow up a hill - swing a pick - shovel soil - too many dodge these activities and they can be so beneficial to "all round strength and core stability" - when a friend needs a hand with some digging, wheeling, gardening, furniture moving, you'll probably gain more doing that than you would in the gym, or putting in another "recovery run".

* Everybody has time to do core work - those who suggest we don't need to do specific core exercises are misleading you - you don't have to spend much time doing core work - I have my squad do them for ten minutes three times a week - it's amazing how beneficial that is in injury prevention and the ability to hold good posture in the second half of an Ironman marathon

* You don't need a gym membership - with a combination of chin ups - push ups - lunges - scissors - trunk twists (repeated over and over) you can work the body in a way that is really beneficial and is not worked by swimming, cycling and running (some franchise coaches have been convinced that swimming, biking and running are all you need for core strength) Everybody has access to a staircase and a knapsack - some of the best strength work can be done with a pair of hiking boots and a knapsack, go out and hit the trails for strength and endurance (hell you may even enjoy a bit of fresh air)

* As the general triathlon community ages most can afford to pay someone to do the handy work around the home, just when you have reached an age where you can pay someone else to do the hard stuff, is when you need to do it most.You will not compete well into older age groups if you don't maintain, or improve your strength.

 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post AP - my brother and i pantented it as the Clint Eastwood workout (running, abs, push ups and chin ups)

my physio got me onto Pilates 3 years ago and haven't looked back , although I don't go to classes much as I can do it solo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, skinnee said:

Good post AP - my brother and i pantented it as the Clint Eastwood workout (running, abs, push ups and chin ups)

I call it "military type strength work" - it works - a combination of natural movements often through a larger range of movement than what's required in our sport - it's the all round strength/fitness that the special forces want their recruits to master B) it's the way of future sports conditioning - no mirrors required - no towel to carry from one station to the next - if you can't stand someone else's sweat on a bar or mat - move aside and make room for someone who can 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think they still do squats, deadlifts and lunges with weights , body weight for chin ups, dips and push ups for upper. Rest is running , swim and core work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just playing around in the gym over the last 4 or 5 months with a 3 x week program where I do one pull exercise, one squatting exercise, one pushing exercise and 2 directions of trunk strengthening exercise each session and keep the reps between 5 and 10 for each set, 3 main sets after 2 warmup sets.

I choose from this list

Squat: front squat, back squat, bulgarian split squat (rear foot elevated)

Pull: deadlift, rackpull, romanian deadlift, landmine 1 leg RDL, cable pull through

Push: incline pushups (I have a very dodgy AC joint which did not like bench press as it got heavy and doing 100 incline pushups a session is tolerable)

Trunk: crunches, planks, pavlov press (aka parloff press and a heap of other rusky sounding names)

My current favourites are the RDL, the bulgarian split squat and the pavlov press but I make sure I mix it up and don't do the same exercise every session.  I have been able to do this sort of session and play 5 a side, go to soccer training or play on weekends with no dramas. Lifting heavy things in a gym has definitely helped with flexibility and ability to get shit done overall, but has taken several tweaks over a few years to arrive at something that fits in with other activities and allows my back, shoulders and elbows to be happy as I get closer to 50.

There is ample evidence out there that resistance training improves endurance sport results, you can do a simple search and find studies showing improved economy, run and cycle TT times if you want to. Finding a tri coach who is willing to use them may be harder.

AP you'd love some of the groups of blokes who do your sorts of stuff down here. The FDIA (fittest drunks in Australia), Wanda Callo's (calisthenics) and locally a group called the legends. They are all groups going for 20+ years, run by old blokes I assume are ex military and surf club guys and all include the sorts of work you suggest, plus some boxing. No BS, a lot of sledging and laughs and then a beer afterwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×