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Any benefit from strength work/lifting

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16 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Not sure what bio-mechanical recovery is. If an individual breaks down doing SBR, they can rest, assess their training load and adjust down the hours.

How does strength training expand a persons ability to recover better from aerobic exercise.

 

14 hours ago, The Customer said:

An hour on my couch watching The Bridge is more beneficial to Ironman preparation than an hour in the gym.

 

9 hours ago, The Customer said:

Just another activity to delay recovery and deliver you to the next SBR session with added fatigue.

The way I see it, every SBR is an opportunity to do strength/resistance training specific to SBR - Swim - pull, paddles, band. Bike - hills and big gear work. Run - hills and soft trails.

If you're a typical age group triathlete who is not a natural runner eg. flat feet, knocked knees, one leg longer than the other and other physical gait issues etc etc etc, no amount of gym work will magically correct your misalignment so that you can run like David Rushida. IMHO, you are better to adopt a defensive running posture focusing on tall spine, shortened stride length, higher cadence, longer foot contact with ground (less bouncy), to sustain constant pace for longer and to limit the potential to injure yourself. Better to mimic race walkers than what the elite runners are doing. Elite race walkers are capable of holding the same speed over 50km that Rini can hold on the run at the Hawaiin Ironman.

 

7 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Weights done the way described are likely to cause reduced performances in sbr in the immediate days after. Compared to someone doing no weights at all. With the muscles severely overloaded chance on injury occurring while running after those weight sessions is higher.

I think you are comparing recovery of energy systems with recovery of biomechanical systems/injury avoidance - different things.

I agree, doing strength work won't help your energy (aerobic) systems recover.  But it will definitely help stop your biomechanical systems (joints, tendons, muscles) from failing to recover & breaking down.

Re big gear work on the bike - I reckon that's what destroyed my knee cartilage.  And my shoulders hated paddles.  If I'd done less of that and more deadlifts etc. I'd have been better off. Ditto my lower back.  It used to be shit.  Then I started specific strength exercises for the lower back muscles - problem fixed (despite all the experts saying it was my stomach muscles that were the problem, it was back muscles).

More SBR definitely got me faster....until it eventually stuffed me because my biomechanical systems were not strong enough to cope with the constant repetition.

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12 minutes ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

 

 

 

I think you are comparing recovery of energy systems with recovery of biomechanical systems/injury avoidance - different things.

I agree, doing strength work won't help your energy (aerobic) systems recover.  But it will definitely help stop your biomechanical systems (joints, tendons, muscles) from failing to recover & breaking down.

Re big gear work on the bike - I reckon that's what destroyed my knee cartilage.  And my shoulders hated paddles.  If I'd done less of that and more deadlifts etc. I'd have been better off. Ditto my lower back.  It used to be shit.  Then I started specific strength exercises for the lower back muscles - problem fixed (despite all the experts saying it was my stomach muscles that were the problem, it was back muscles).

More SBR definitely got me faster....until it eventually stuffed me because my biomechanical systems were not strong enough to cope with the constant repetition.

Progressive overload

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5 hours ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

Re big gear work on the bike - I reckon that's what destroyed my knee cartilage.

Interesting given the forces involved in big gear cycling are really very low relative to even submaximal gym resistance training.

Usually it's a function of poor bike fit and/or attempting to do too much and/or do it too quickly. Pre-existing conditions don't help either.

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1 hour ago, Alex Simmons said:

Interesting given the forces involved in big gear cycling are really very low relative to even submaximal gym resistance training.

Usually it's a function of poor bike fit and/or attempting to do too much and/or do it too quickly. Pre-existing conditions don't help either.

Pre-existing cond. yes. Quite obvious patella chondromalacia (but everyone over 40 has it to varying degrees ).Poor bike fit possibly as I always felt better on a 51cm but bike shops wanted to sell me 54s and even a 57 once!

Re submaximal I think submaximal but thousands of reps can do just as much damage as near maximal but 30 reps. In fact I'd guess more damage. But it varies with the exercise. E.g. Seated leg extensions terrible. Deadlifts  = minimal knee loading if done properly but really built all the balancing muscles which helps take load off the knees.

Too much too quickly. Quite likely which leads down the murky path of the risks of online coaching and not being able to eyeball the person. 

Anyway n=1 again, back in the day hard windtrainer sets with big gear intervals always seemed to make the knees sorer than running?

But I think I'm well down the recovery path thanks to strength and balance work for past 3yrs.

 

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On 24/05/2018 at 10:48 PM, BarryBevan said:

The OP asked if there would be, any benefits to triathlon and benefits in general. There are definitely benefits to health from resistance training.

There maybe benefits to SBR. Most people do not spend the time required to reach the limit of their SBR potential due to, life, work families and other limits. If the objective is to be the best at SBR with normal limits like these, time spent doing 2 resistance sessions is better spent doing more SBR.

 

3 points:

1. A systematic review and meta-analysis of exercise interventions to reduce injury risk has shown overwhelming evidence in favour or strength training. reducing overuse injuries by almost a half, and overall injuries across sports by almost 2/3

2. Again, consistent findings of improvement in running economy and performance in endurance athletes performing concurrent endurance training with high load strength training. To pick one example. Moderately trained runners: 6 weeks of twice weekly lunges and calf raises with 80% 1RM doing 4 sets of 4 reps dropped 5km run time by almost 4%. Run only group did not improve. This reverted back in strength group after a 6 week endurance only washout.

3. Those in the sports med/strength and conditioning industry who do any reading would not advocate strength training to correct running mechanics. Those clams etc are a waste of time of you wish to look prettier when you run. A running retraining program using simple cues available from things like a treadmill, smartphone apps, mirror and running watch can make changes to running kinematics within 6 weeks.

In my personal experience and observation, adding 2 hours of running volume to most AG triathletes will cause much more fatigue and injury risk than 1.5 hours of focussed strength work in the gym.

Edited by Parkside
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22 minutes ago, Parkside said:

2. Again, consistent findings of improvement in running economy and performance in endurance athletes performing concurrent endurance training with high load strength training. To pick one example. Moderately trained runners: 6 weeks of twice weekly lunges and calf raises with 80% 1RM doing 4 sets of 4 reps dropped 5km run time by almost 4%. Run only group did not improve. This reverted back in strength group after a 6 week endurance only washout.

What sort of 5km run time are we talking about here?

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Thanks Parkside. Question... it's proven to reduce injuries, but how if it isn't affecting kinematics (if I understand the definition correctly)?  I can see how forward lean / push hips forward etc can be fixed with a mirror, but I keep going back to the same example of runners with a hip splaying - no amount of mirror / smartphone etc would fix that - it's often glute med weakness ?? Thanks

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31 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

Thanks Parkside. Question... it's proven to reduce injuries, but how if it isn't affecting kinematics (if I understand the definition correctly)?  I can see how forward lean / push hips forward etc can be fixed with a mirror, but I keep going back to the same example of runners with a hip splaying - no amount of mirror / smartphone etc would fix that - it's often glute med weakness ?? Thanks

By hip splaying I assume you mean hip drop?  

If it is hip drop you can look at other factors as well.  

- collapsed arch

- APT or PPT 

Forward rotated shoulder 

Stiff thoracic spine especially rotation element. 

The three above can all correlate with hip drop which may not a glute weakness.  

 

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1 hour ago, Parkside said:

1. A systematic review and meta-analysis of exercise interventions to reduce injury risk has shown overwhelming evidence in favour or strength training. reducing overuse injuries by almost a half, and overall injuries across sports by almost 2/3

This one?

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/48/11/871.short

If so I think it needs to be more specific than "all sports".

The 26 studies reviewed contained none for triathletes (nor any for runners, swimmers or cyclists) but mostly team or contact type sports, army recruits and those activities/sports with rapid changes of directions etc. Football, soccer, basketball, handball. The demands of such sports and injury types are often quite different to those experienced in solo endurance athletic modalities such as swim bike run.

As such, while I still expect some injury prevention benefits from resistance training (if done well and carefully) I would be hesitant to apply these generalised findings for the sports covered to athletic endeavour not covered by the research.

Another interesting finding of the above meta analysis was that stretching had no effect on injury prevention rates in these activities.

 

This one is more specific to triathlon disciplines and over use injury but not resistance or strength work. It's a study of 30 male non-elite triathletes.

https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fulltext/2010/01000/Triathlon_Event_Distance_Specialization__Training.5.aspx

I try to keep an open mind but note it's published in JCSR which is not exactly a pin up science journal and so an additional level of scrutiny should apply to any conclusions reported. They do acknowledge the limitations. Post-hoc self reporting has challenges.

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4 hours ago, Parkside said:

3 points:

1. A systematic review and meta-analysis of exercise interventions to reduce injury risk has shown overwhelming evidence in favour or strength training. reducing overuse injuries by almost a half, and overall injuries across sports by almost 2/3

2. Again, consistent findings of improvement in running economy and performance in endurance athletes performing concurrent endurance training with high load strength training. To pick one example. Moderately trained runners: 6 weeks of twice weekly lunges and calf raises with 80% 1RM doing 4 sets of 4 reps dropped 5km run time by almost 4%. Run only group did not improve. This reverted back in strength group after a 6 week endurance only washout.

3. Those in the sports med/strength and conditioning industry who do any reading would not advocate strength training to correct running mechanics. Those clams etc are a waste of time of you wish to look prettier when you run. A running retraining program using simple cues available from things like a treadmill, smartphone apps, mirror and running watch can make changes to running kinematics within 6 weeks.

In my personal experience and observation, adding 2 hours of running volume to most AG triathletes will cause much more fatigue and injury risk than 1.5 hours of focussed strength work in the gym.

Taking studies out of it, as this thread will become very long when we start picking studies as there is a study to support almost any hypothesis. 

Can they do more swimming and biking and a little bit of running. Adding in 2 hours of running will have a high probability of injury.

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4 hours ago, BogFrog said:

I can see how forward lean / push hips forward etc can be fixed with a mirror, but I keep going back to the same example of runners with a hip splaying - no amount of mirror / smartphone etc would fix that - it's often glute med weakness ?? Thanks

Why would you lean forward? how are you going to hold that sort of silly posture for anything more than 5km?

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26 minutes ago, The Customer said:

Why would you lean forward? how are you going to hold that sort of silly posture for anything more than 5km?

I thought the slight forward lean from the ankles was universally acknowledged as most ecconomical? I've been hearing this for years. You have another opinion I take it?

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19 minutes ago, BogFrog said:

I thought the slight forward lean from the ankles was universally acknowledged as most ecconomical? I've been hearing this for years. You have another opinion I take it?

Tends to be what we see Kenyans running sub 3 minute pace in still pictures. They run like that because they have run economy honed over years and years if thousands of miles and they are running fast. Copying that technique at 6 min k pace will not make you more economical running wise. You get that style because you have developed run economy

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images (3).jpeg

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On 25/05/2018 at 10:21 PM, ComfortablyNumb said:

 

 

 

I think you are comparing recovery of energy systems with recovery of biomechanical systems/injury avoidance - different things.

I agree, doing strength work won't help your energy (aerobic) systems recover.  But it will definitely help stop your biomechanical systems (joints, tendons, muscles) from failing to recover & breaking down.

Re big gear work on the bike - I reckon that's what destroyed my knee cartilage.  And my shoulders hated paddles.  If I'd done less of that and more deadlifts etc. I'd have been better off. Ditto my lower back.  It used to be shit.  Then I started specific strength exercises for the lower back muscles - problem fixed (despite all the experts saying it was my stomach muscles that were the problem, it was back muscles).

More SBR definitely got me faster....until it eventually stuffed me because my biomechanical systems were not strong enough to cope with the constant repetition.

What is recovery of bio mechanical system and also what injuries are we avoiding. 

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5 hours ago, BogFrog said:

Thanks Parkside. Question... it's proven to reduce injuries, but how if it isn't affecting kinematics (if I understand the definition correctly)?  I can see how forward lean / push hips forward etc can be fixed with a mirror, but I keep going back to the same example of runners with a hip splaying - no amount of mirror / smartphone etc would fix that - it's often glute med weakness ?? Thanks

There is no link between muscle weakness and running kinematics. Hence strength work won’t fix your running technique or lack of it. It will improve physiology by changing muscle structure, connective tissue structure (tendons become stiffer springs) as well as blood vessel and mitochondrial density. Injury prevention by improving resilience and load bearing capacity of the muscle and tendon itself but also by improving protective effect muscle has on bones and joints. 

i will only tinker with someone’s run technique if I can make a link that makes logical sense with how they run and the injury they bring with them. Usually strengthening for injury rehab and simple treadmill training for run technique 

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26 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

What is recovery of bio mechanical system and also what injuries are we avoiding. 

Stress fractures, tendonitis, patella femoral pain syndrome, plantar fasciitis, osteitis pubis, swimmers shoulder, meniscus tears, calf tears/strains, bulging disc.....just about any overuse injury you can think of.  Recovery of biomechanical system means expanding the envelope of function (through rest, and strength training) to reduce the chance of those injuries.

Like Matt said - " Injury prevention by improving resilience and load bearing capacity of the muscle and tendon itself but also by improving protective effect muscle has on bones and joints".

Edited by ComfortablyNumb

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I read it in Going Long years ago. Ten years ago. 

 

Until you are running fast off the bike, your stance should be ALMOST upright. 

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44 minutes ago, goughy said:

images (3).jpeg

I know it's a funny pic, but imagine holding this for 10, 21 or 42 km off the bike. Really image it.

Set your posture tall. Most economical posture for any human is lying down flat or standing tall. Anything else is just fighting gravity. Even the fast mid-distance runners hold a tall posture. If you think they're leaning forward it's an illusion of what's really going on.

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14 minutes ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

Stress fractures, tendonitis, patella femoral pain syndrome, plantar fasciitis, osteitis pubis, swimmers shoulder, meniscus tears, calf tears/strains, bulging disc.....just about any overuse injury you can think of.  Recovery of biomechanical system means expanding the envelope of function (through rest, and strength training) to reduce the chance of those injuries.

Like Matt said - " Injury prevention by improving resilience and load bearing capacity of the muscle and tendon itself but also by improving protective effect muscle has on bones and joints".

This could go on forever as we are all repeating our set views, not learning from each other. It is the internet though. I used to do the weights, prescribed by Mark Allen. Up side I looked ripped and felt great. The variety was good and looked forward to doing the sessions. For all round health there was benefit. At the time I did those weights and I never missed them as I enjoyed the lifting, I got my one and only stress fracture and a number of other overuse injuries.

Overuse injury is prevented by not overusing. Don't do too much volume or intensity to quick and you won't get over use injuries. The best way to prevent overuse is to progressively overload and do the specific action.

If the bio-mechanical function is running, expansion of function would be to run. I was a card carrying member of the weights club, you look great. It does nothing to prevent injury, worst aspect was it leaves muscles fried for days meaning you are not recovered enough to execute SBR specific and if you go real hard the muscles ironically don't support you when doing SBR and you can get injured

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I have been trying to experiment with leaning forward on my last few runs. It feels weird. 

I found concentrating on turning my core on (sucking my guts in) tends to pull me up straighter & taller. My pace also seems to naturally pick up with the same amount of effort. 

 

 

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What does ‘80% 1RM ‘ mean?

Im not a stud on the bike but go ok. Currently my FTP is 267. Having said that, I can barely leg press 90kg on that machine and calf raises are 25kgs max ( both legs together). I usually do 10 reps on leg press, calf raise, calf pull x 2.

In reality, I do little strength, as in weights but do a lot of rolling and other mat based stuff. I have no idea if it’s helping if I’m honest.

I have other stuff I have to do in order just to be mobile but I don’t count that.

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28 minutes ago, FatPom said:

What does ‘80% 1RM ‘ mean?

Im not a stud on the bike but go ok. Currently my FTP is 267. Having said that, I can barely leg press 90kg on that machine and calf raises are 25kgs max ( both legs together). I usually do 10 reps on leg press, calf raise, calf pull x 2.

In reality, I do little strength, as in weights but do a lot of rolling and other mat based stuff. I have no idea if it’s helping if I’m honest.

I have other stuff I have to do in order just to be mobile but I don’t count that.

90 kg on leg press the shame

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