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TryTriB4Forty    640

Also, for the record, the New Testament does call for the killing of non-believers.

 

"But those are mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither and slay them before me" (Luke, 19:27) - King James Version

 

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be King over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me" - New International Version

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mickbillfrank    182

Also, for the record, the New Testament does call for the killing of non-believers.

 

"But those are mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither and slay them before me" (Luke, 19:27) - King James Version

 

"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be King over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me" - New International Version

nah, jesus was telling a parable unpacking the kingdom of god. your quote refers to judgement day when, according to christian belief - all will be judged. certainly doesnt refer to slaughtering non-christians in the here and now.

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Cottoneyes    798

That's the trouble, all in the interpretation.

 

Why couldn't the bible or koran or whatever be put into plain language with no ambiguity?

 

And why couldn't the future be forecast so it was done in 140 character bits with lots of hashtags for easy reference?

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mickbillfrank    182

That's the trouble, all in the interpretation.

 

Why couldn't the bible or koran or whatever be put into plain language with no ambiguity?

 

And why couldn't the future be forecast so it was done in 140 character bits with lots of hashtags for easy reference?

there is no ambiguity at all with regard to the old and new testaments. literary forms abound and are easily identified. as you say, the issue is with a literal fundamental approach,,,ie. world in 6 days 6000 years old noahs ark adam and eve homosexual mandates etc etc...very dangerous

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XCOM!    170

If you ignore the Old Testament as most Christians do...

 

When did Christians start doing that?

 

Being an atheist myself, I readily admit to being out of touch with the whole church-religion thing, but last exposure I had to it (cold shudder) was that the Old Testament was a pretty big deal, with all the begats and damnations, etc, playing a major role in the whole show.

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Esoteric    514

 

Have you heard about this religion called the Catholic Church?

 

They are pretty much up there with shit things and then just saying 3 hail Mary's to be forgiven.

 

I think they are far far worse than Islam

Don't know if you're being sarcastic. That was my point also.

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Rimmer    354

 

 

Should we respect the beliefs that homosexuality, choosing to leave your religion and adultery should all be punishable by death?

 

Personally I don't respect those beliefs at all.

Fair point and no, I don't agree with FGM, stoning, their views on adultery etc.

 

Those aspects are prehistoric!!!

 

However, and my fiancée comes across FGM butchery in her GP practice everyday, this is a cultural thing - and in some West African nations - a societal expectation as well as a religious thing.

 

Also, sects of the Jewish faith practice this as well - why are we not outraged at that as well?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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FatPom    2,321

To me Christians saying 'Islam has a problem' is like a mass murderer accusing another mass murderer of being evil.

 

Both have a long history of evil in the world - whether you are talking about rape, abuse, cover-ups, the abuse of women, the treatment of those with different views or outright murder - they are as bad as one another.

 

For every female FGM statistic or bombing reference you can talk about in Islam, you can countenance with just as many evil doings by 'Christians' - Just a reminder that the Child Abuse Royal Commission is about to hear evidence from its 7000th witness..... I'm pretty sure none of those 7000 kids raped by priests consider that the Christian religion has any authority to say what is and isn't evil.

 

I just wish that the Christian religions would heed their own words - you know, those who live in glass houses and all that.

 

Its nothing new though is it?? Christianity claiming moral superiority, claiming that they are the only ones with the moral compass.... all whilst raping kids and doing their best to influence politics for their own twisted ends.....

 

Christianity is just another mass murdering, evil crime syndicate.

 

 

I get the argument about one being as bad as the other, and I get that the Catholic church is disgusting in its complicity in covering up child rape.

 

But, here's what I don't get, over here we are absolutely bombarded with news of rapes and other sexual abuses by newly arrived Muslims in Europe (esp Sweden and Germany).

 

So I don't understand the position where its only Muslims doing FGM or bombing (as clearly this isn't the case) and only Christians committing child abuse, as this isn't the case either.

 

The only thing I do understand is that I want to keep my daughter safe and a huge step in that is making sure organised religion plays zero part in her life, at least whilst she is in our care.

 

I'm out on this. For me topic is like Rumsfeld, there are knowns and unknowns and I don't know what I know or don't know any more.

Edited by FatPom

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TryTriB4Forty    640

 

Mickbillfrank wrote

"There is no ambiguity at all"

 

 

Problem is, this is what all religious people say.

 

There is no ambiguity al all - I have complete understanding of what my religious text is trying to say.

 

The fact that there are 1000 different interpretations just means everyone else is wrong.

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A2K    595

Fair point and no, I don't agree with FGM, stoning, their views on adultery etc.

 

Those aspects are prehistoric!!!

 

However, and my fiancée comes across FGM butchery in her GP practice everyday, this is a cultural thing - and in some West African nations - a societal expectation as well as a religious thing.

 

Also, sects of the Jewish faith practice this as well - why are we not outraged at that as well?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am outraged by ALL FGM regardless of which faith or culture practices it. Does your fiancee report it to the police and if so do you know what follows?

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mickbillfrank    182

 

 

Problem is, this is what all religious people say.

 

There is no ambiguity al all - I have complete understanding of what my religious text is trying to say.

 

The fact that there are 1000 different interpretations just means everyone else is wrong.

well no...im not religious - im an academic who interprets language and text for a living. i can read and write the orginal language in which was written. there is consensus and convention around the literary genres of the bible.

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IronJimbo    501

 

Problem is, this is what all religious people say.

 

There is no ambiguity al all - I have complete understanding of what my religious text is trying to say.

 

The fact that there are 1000 different interpretations just means everyone else is wrong.

 

Reminds me of when global warming zealots say things like "the science is settled"

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MountainMan    906

well no...im not religious - im an academic who interprets language and text for a living. i can read and write the orginal language in which was written. there is consensus and convention around the literary genres of the bible.

 

I think the problem is that some people claim the authors were possessed by an omnipotent entity at the time they wrote it. Does your academic analysis of the bible support that position at all?

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TryTriB4Forty    640

I hear what you are saying mickbillfrank,

 

But from where I sit, people who interpret the bible (be they academic, clerics, or just the man on the street) all come up with a different point of view. Conveniently, that point of view happens to line up with their own thoughts on things.'

 

We've seen Christians (and Muslims) interpret their own books for all sorts of things - some good, some bad.

 

Fundamentally, its difficult to believe that the 'good book' is the almighty word of God when it doesn't seem like even his followers can agree on what the words mean.

 

It's as though the authors of the bible where illiterate brown people from the middle east that Peter Dutton wants to keep from coming into the country..... If we can't trust them not to take our jobs, how can we trust them with determining what is right and/or wrong?

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mickbillfrank    182

I hear what you are saying mickbillfrank,

 

But from where I sit, people who interpret the bible (be they academic, clerics, or just the man on the street) all come up with a different point of view. Conveniently, that point of view happens to line up with their own thoughts on things.'

 

We've seen Christians (and Muslims) interpret their own books for all sorts of things - some good, some bad.

 

Fundamentally, its difficult to believe that the 'good book' is the almighty word of God when it doesn't seem like even his followers can agree on what the words mean.

 

It's as though the authors of the bible where illiterate brown people from the middle east that Peter Dutton wants to keep from coming into the country..... If we can't trust them not to take our jobs, how can we trust them with determining what is right and/or wrong?

agree wholeheartedly - hence why there really is no 'truth' it's all perspective and rationalisation.

 

any rational intelligent humanbeing cannot understand the bible as inerrant and infallible. there are simply too many contradictions, errors, mistakes, and shit grammar for that to even be considered.

 

getting back to islam - we can demonise the religion all we like. unfortunately the radicals are flying the flag sky high at the moment - and it doesnt help when muslims like walid aly win the gold logie and beat the martyr/victim drum. his acceptance speech was all about him being a symbol for muslim inclusivity in society generally, and his industry particularly...muslims are 1.8% or there abouts of the australian population...so even him winning the gong, or being a presenter on a prime time show is massively over-representing his faith tradition. using his argument 1 in 4 tv people should be catholics given 27% of the population are from that faith tradition.

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goughy    2,147

I won't get into this much, as I don't have the background on Islam to comment. But I think obi wan kenobi said it best: 'from a certain point of view'. Interpretation is used to make any religious book our teachings meet an individual's needs/wants. Think the ABC news this morning was saying Westboro Baptist Church wanted to protest at the funerals of the deceased. Their crap comes out of the same book, taken from a certain point of view.

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Rocket Salad    1,068

why don't you crawl back under your bridge RS, unless you have anything of value to add to the thread?

Shhhh.

The adults are talking.

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Prince    265

so should a government let refugees who are islam settle in australia? and should we remove those who are already in Australia that practice the islamic faith?

Edited by Prince

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Niseko    752

Rewind the clock to the 1930's and I'd not the Catholic Church as more toxic than Islam.

 

The rise of Wahhabism and strict interpretations of the Koran and repression of women is quite recent and Islamism is now most toxic religion on the planet. Interesting that the rise of fundamental Islam can be put down to a Saudi in the US who went to a dance in the 50's and was horrified at the music, the closeness between men and women and the tight fitting clothes the women wore, so decided he had the moral high ground and was going to show the world how moral his people were and somehow he convinced everyone (even the women) that covering completely in public was a sign of how moral they were and hence a good idea. There's not much in the Koran about women covering up in public.

 

It's typical of hand-wringing apologists to talk about Westbro, Catholic priests or the KKK, but they are not in the same league of toxicity as Islam.

 

Middle Eastern social media lit up with celebrations after the shooting last week. When you have 50% of 1.5 billion people thinking homosexuality deserves the death penalty how could it not?

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Niseko    752

so should a government let refugees who are islam settle in australia?

 

I think Australia should be very careful with it's level of Islamic immigration, but the numbers of refugees are quite small int he scheme of things. Most do tend to be Muslims, because those countries are generally the ones people are more likely to be seeking refuge from. If they get to 10% of the population then look out, the country will be farked.

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MountainMan    906
I don't think it needs to be about religion at all.


If there is a group of people leading and controlling other people that are encouraging, permitting and carrying out terrible violence and human rights abuses against others, why should their personal reasoning and justification even be relevant?


Criminals, perpetrators of violence, human rights abusers, they should all be opposed, stopped and brought to justice. It doesn't matter what ancient book they read or what language it was written in, it doesn't matter what their "truth" is. The violence and vial acts that must be stopped, if your "truth" says otherwise, you are wrong.

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