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Prince

Settled or Invaded

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The debate over the next 2-3 months will be whether white man invaded Australia or Settled Australia?

 

and can Captain Cook discover Australia when there were already people here?

 

i dont know. some idiot from University of NSW has thrown this hand grenade...

 

 

Despite all the pundits saying it is a good debate, to me, all it does is throw up the racism debate all over again and we were just beginning to settle down after the Adam Goodes controversy.

Edited by Prince

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Every single place on this planet has had this happen, some over and over and over, some still going on today. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It is what it is.

 

That's a far as my debate on the subject should go.

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Invaded... Pretty simple really. People here before James rocked up on his ship? Yep. Did he turn up with a musket? Yep. Did he have the intention to occupy? Yep.

 

Now settled is an interesting one... Come to an agreement? I reckon if you turned up in court and the other party could show evidence of little understanding or consideration then they would be in a very strong position to say any "settlement" was not binding.

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Wouldn't we be better off concentrating on what is happening now, and fixing that, than the wording around what the white settlers/invaders did 200 years ago? Or will this make a difference in the courts when land rights claims come up?

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Potentially it makes a huge difference to our legal system. If you take over another country their legal system/laws stay in place but you can add to them. If you settle an unoccupied place you start with your own law.

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Heaven forbid, I agree with Steve Price.

It depends on your perspective.

 

White settlement just means when white folk started living here, right?

 

To the Aboriginals, they were probably the first full time invaders.

 

No one honestly still thinks Cookie Monster was the first white man to "discover" Australia do they?

 

In the end, some Academic wrote a thing that got discussion going.

They will probably get a grant.

Not much will change though.

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And if some other colonising country moved in today, I'm sure we'd all call it invading. Alan Bigott Jones and the like can't have it both ways. The dickhead is already saying that our farmland is being invaded by the Chinese.

 

Less seriously, lets hope it would be someone like New Zealand - they seem like nice people and have a good rugby team.

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Every single place on this planet has had this happen, some over and over and over, some still going on today. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It is what it is.

 

A great book to read on the global history of this phenomenon:

Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond

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I think I'm with Goughy ...

 

There is no doubt the place was occupied when white blokes turned up. Simple as that. but its not much different to what has happened in dozens of countries over the past few hundred years.

 

The language may have implications in legal terms, but you can't change facts. I'm not sure whether I'd use the term 'invasion', but I hardily think that Europeans just peacefully 'settled' the place either ....

 

The European settlers treated indigenous Australians abhorrently for a hundred years or so. Murder, rape, poisoning their food, making them work for free (slavery?) locking them in chains and, in the case of Tasmania, literally hunting them like feral animals until there were none left...

 

I like Lawmans comments - Alan Jones this morning scoffed at the term 'invasion' by Europeans, but half an hour later in his discussion with Barnaby referred to the 'invasion' of Chinese in terms of mining and agriculture land.

 

Can't have it both ways...

 

 

I was more appalled by Alan Jones guest this morning who was a right racist nutter. Complaining about the 'welcome to country' and paying respect to indigenous elders at that start of meeting, stating that the stolen generation didn't exist, saying that it wasn't an 'invasion' because Europeans have created wealth in Australia and that indigenous people get more social welfare handouts than anyone.... Aboriginal people should really be thankful apparently.

 

I wonder if we were invaded/settled today by the Chinese, in 100 years their would be a chinese version of Alan Jones on the radio saying how thankful white Australians should be because the chinese invested in faster internet and factory farming and white people have benefited ...?!?!

Edited by TryTriB4Forty

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Pretty sure Captain Cook planted a flag in the Torres Strait and claimed the east coast of Australia for England, so that sounds pretty invadey to me.

 

If you roll into my house and plonk your stubbie holder on my coffee table and claim it as your house, I am calling that an invasion.

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I think they walked...

Did they push out anyone?

 

From what I've read, no, though some sources said the northern tribes were more aggressive, and forced the less aggressive south. I suppose you could say the Northern Aboriginals invaded the land and forced the others off.

 

Personally, after working around some of the communities in North Qld, I would just like to see current issues fixed.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

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Did they push out anyone?

 

From what I've read, no, though some sources said the northern tribes were more aggressive, and forced the less aggressive south. I suppose you could say the Northern Aboriginals invaded the land and forced the others off.

 

Personally, after working around some of the communities in North Qld, I would just like to see current issues fixed.

 

i dont think money thrown at them helps thats for sure. i hear stories that where they were given houses they end up burning them, but unsure if that is true.

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i dont think money thrown at them helps thats for sure. i hear stories that where they were given houses they end up burning them, but unsure if that is true.

 

It's true.

 

They don't have the same attachment to material possessions or and a much looser sense of the term 'ownership' - including who is responsible for raising children - than us whiteys.

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i dont think money thrown at them helps thats for sure. i hear stories that where they were given houses they end up burning them, but unsure if that is true.

You're right. I don't know what the best solution is, but having seen and worked in the communities, I know something needs to be done to change their current situation.

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Lets buy less new submarines that will never see action and spend money saved on healthcare and social services staff to work with the communities in trouble. Top it up with an extra 20 billion from various slush finds and pork barrels the politicians use to get elected to make sure the support it is funded for 20 years.

 

It might work and i it doesn't... well It's only money.

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The trouble with helping the current communities and people, is that there is not going to be a blanket solution. Every community sees themselves and their challenges differently, and sub groups within the communities also differ. I spent time working on an employment initiative in the Moree/ Goondiwindi area in the late 90s and the social challenges and aspirations varied alot from the communities I grew up around near Cherbourg. I remember one elder from Boggabilla around the time that was constantly in the media speaking on behalf of the community who was not even recognised as being a member of the community by alot of the members.

 

One size is not going to fit all and there needs to be smaller boards with individual budgets (and strict auditing bodies in place) to come up with their own solutions, with regular gatherings to tackle problems that do exist across all communities and to share success stories. Get the framework right and when the results are coming in, then throw the money at the problem, don't waste the opportunity before then propping up corrupt individuals and bodies that exist.

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Get the framework right and when the results are coming in, then throw the money at the problem, don't waste the opportunity before then propping up corrupt individuals and bodies that exist.

 

Yup, spot on based on my observations.

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Walked into the pub in Georgtown in Northern Quuensland & was asked

 

"what the fk do you want ya muthha trucking Captin cook invading runt" I think the indigenous community believe Australia was invaded.

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Walked into the pub in Georgtown in Northern Quuensland & was asked

 

"what the fk do you want ya muthha trucking Captin cook invading runt" I think the indigenous community believe Australia was invaded.

 

 

wow. Did you have a beer, or start running?

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Ended up having a few beers but left once they started get a bit out of hand. This place was so backwards they still had a black & whites section of the bar. There was no signs or anything but it was deftinetly separated.

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There must be an election coming up and the LNP are not travelling so good for amurdoch to lob this in. It's called 'the dead cat strategy' - a phrase coined by Sir Lynton Crosby to describe how Newscorpse works hand in glove with conservative Neo liberal parties across the anglosphere to distract working and middle class voters anger when said conservative parties are on the nose.

 

There is precious little in this story to warrant anything more than two inches in column 8 or a small story on page 11 of the tabloids and yet we get this headline screamer designed to divide folk for political reasons.

 

As for the actual question posed - did captain Cook discover or invade Australia - the answer is that he did neither. His first voyage was one of scientific discovery - his main role was to ferry a bunch of eccentrics from the Royal Society on a jaunt around the globe as they collected stuff and took measurements. His secondary task was with his own fields of scientific expertise - navigation and cartography - he may not have discovered Australia but he accuracy tell mapped it's east cost.

 

After this first voyage the English fracked off for another 18 years. Nothing else would have happened if Banks didn't write a little note to the colonial office and Admiralty that Botany Bay might make a good substitute penalty colony for North America. Bizarrely this note was turned into an actual policy and without much planning, no further reconnaissance or a forward landing party off they set. The letters patent and the actual objectives were a muddled mess reminiscent of the confused Dardanelles campaign over z century later - indeed if one were to pick which plan was likely to succeed of the two you'd pick Gallipoli every time. Proof that the whole show was a cock up can be seen when Phillip abandoned Botany Bay as soon as he arrived. The First Fleet was exceedingly lucky that they found water in Port Jackson the following day otherwise they were well and truly fracked. Yet for all that they survived and the rest they say is history.

 

The reason why the history deniers have wriggle room to deny that the First Fleet was an invasion fleet lies in the fact that the whole enterprise was a confused mess. Nobody really knew why they were there. That said from the get go it got brutish and nasty - traits that only got worse the more that NSW proved to be viable.

Edited by Andrew #1

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