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Settled or Invaded

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The debate over the next 2-3 months will be whether white man invaded Australia or Settled Australia?

 

and can Captain Cook discover Australia when there were already people here?

 

i dont know. some idiot from University of NSW has thrown this hand grenade...

 

 

Despite all the pundits saying it is a good debate, to me, all it does is throw up the racism debate all over again and we were just beginning to settle down after the Adam Goodes controversy.

Edited by Prince

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Every single place on this planet has had this happen, some over and over and over, some still going on today. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It is what it is.

 

That's a far as my debate on the subject should go.

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Invaded... Pretty simple really. People here before James rocked up on his ship? Yep. Did he turn up with a musket? Yep. Did he have the intention to occupy? Yep.

 

Now settled is an interesting one... Come to an agreement? I reckon if you turned up in court and the other party could show evidence of little understanding or consideration then they would be in a very strong position to say any "settlement" was not binding.

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Wouldn't we be better off concentrating on what is happening now, and fixing that, than the wording around what the white settlers/invaders did 200 years ago? Or will this make a difference in the courts when land rights claims come up?

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Potentially it makes a huge difference to our legal system. If you take over another country their legal system/laws stay in place but you can add to them. If you settle an unoccupied place you start with your own law.

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Heaven forbid, I agree with Steve Price.

It depends on your perspective.

 

White settlement just means when white folk started living here, right?

 

To the Aboriginals, they were probably the first full time invaders.

 

No one honestly still thinks Cookie Monster was the first white man to "discover" Australia do they?

 

In the end, some Academic wrote a thing that got discussion going.

They will probably get a grant.

Not much will change though.

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And if some other colonising country moved in today, I'm sure we'd all call it invading. Alan Bigott Jones and the like can't have it both ways. The dickhead is already saying that our farmland is being invaded by the Chinese.

 

Less seriously, lets hope it would be someone like New Zealand - they seem like nice people and have a good rugby team.

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Every single place on this planet has had this happen, some over and over and over, some still going on today. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It is what it is.

 

A great book to read on the global history of this phenomenon:

Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond

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I think I'm with Goughy ...

 

There is no doubt the place was occupied when white blokes turned up. Simple as that. but its not much different to what has happened in dozens of countries over the past few hundred years.

 

The language may have implications in legal terms, but you can't change facts. I'm not sure whether I'd use the term 'invasion', but I hardily think that Europeans just peacefully 'settled' the place either ....

 

The European settlers treated indigenous Australians abhorrently for a hundred years or so. Murder, rape, poisoning their food, making them work for free (slavery?) locking them in chains and, in the case of Tasmania, literally hunting them like feral animals until there were none left...

 

I like Lawmans comments - Alan Jones this morning scoffed at the term 'invasion' by Europeans, but half an hour later in his discussion with Barnaby referred to the 'invasion' of Chinese in terms of mining and agriculture land.

 

Can't have it both ways...

 

 

I was more appalled by Alan Jones guest this morning who was a right racist nutter. Complaining about the 'welcome to country' and paying respect to indigenous elders at that start of meeting, stating that the stolen generation didn't exist, saying that it wasn't an 'invasion' because Europeans have created wealth in Australia and that indigenous people get more social welfare handouts than anyone.... Aboriginal people should really be thankful apparently.

 

I wonder if we were invaded/settled today by the Chinese, in 100 years their would be a chinese version of Alan Jones on the radio saying how thankful white Australians should be because the chinese invested in faster internet and factory farming and white people have benefited ...?!?!

Edited by TryTriB4Forty

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Pretty sure Captain Cook planted a flag in the Torres Strait and claimed the east coast of Australia for England, so that sounds pretty invadey to me.

 

If you roll into my house and plonk your stubbie holder on my coffee table and claim it as your house, I am calling that an invasion.

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I think they walked...

Did they push out anyone?

 

From what I've read, no, though some sources said the northern tribes were more aggressive, and forced the less aggressive south. I suppose you could say the Northern Aboriginals invaded the land and forced the others off.

 

Personally, after working around some of the communities in North Qld, I would just like to see current issues fixed.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

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Did they push out anyone?

 

From what I've read, no, though some sources said the northern tribes were more aggressive, and forced the less aggressive south. I suppose you could say the Northern Aboriginals invaded the land and forced the others off.

 

Personally, after working around some of the communities in North Qld, I would just like to see current issues fixed.

 

i dont think money thrown at them helps thats for sure. i hear stories that where they were given houses they end up burning them, but unsure if that is true.

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i dont think money thrown at them helps thats for sure. i hear stories that where they were given houses they end up burning them, but unsure if that is true.

 

It's true.

 

They don't have the same attachment to material possessions or and a much looser sense of the term 'ownership' - including who is responsible for raising children - than us whiteys.

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i dont think money thrown at them helps thats for sure. i hear stories that where they were given houses they end up burning them, but unsure if that is true.

You're right. I don't know what the best solution is, but having seen and worked in the communities, I know something needs to be done to change their current situation.

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Lets buy less new submarines that will never see action and spend money saved on healthcare and social services staff to work with the communities in trouble. Top it up with an extra 20 billion from various slush finds and pork barrels the politicians use to get elected to make sure the support it is funded for 20 years.

 

It might work and i it doesn't... well It's only money.

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The trouble with helping the current communities and people, is that there is not going to be a blanket solution. Every community sees themselves and their challenges differently, and sub groups within the communities also differ. I spent time working on an employment initiative in the Moree/ Goondiwindi area in the late 90s and the social challenges and aspirations varied alot from the communities I grew up around near Cherbourg. I remember one elder from Boggabilla around the time that was constantly in the media speaking on behalf of the community who was not even recognised as being a member of the community by alot of the members.

 

One size is not going to fit all and there needs to be smaller boards with individual budgets (and strict auditing bodies in place) to come up with their own solutions, with regular gatherings to tackle problems that do exist across all communities and to share success stories. Get the framework right and when the results are coming in, then throw the money at the problem, don't waste the opportunity before then propping up corrupt individuals and bodies that exist.

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Get the framework right and when the results are coming in, then throw the money at the problem, don't waste the opportunity before then propping up corrupt individuals and bodies that exist.

 

Yup, spot on based on my observations.

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Walked into the pub in Georgtown in Northern Quuensland & was asked

 

"what the fk do you want ya muthha trucking Captin cook invading runt" I think the indigenous community believe Australia was invaded.

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Walked into the pub in Georgtown in Northern Quuensland & was asked

 

"what the fk do you want ya muthha trucking Captin cook invading runt" I think the indigenous community believe Australia was invaded.

 

 

wow. Did you have a beer, or start running?

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Ended up having a few beers but left once they started get a bit out of hand. This place was so backwards they still had a black & whites section of the bar. There was no signs or anything but it was deftinetly separated.

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There must be an election coming up and the LNP are not travelling so good for amurdoch to lob this in. It's called 'the dead cat strategy' - a phrase coined by Sir Lynton Crosby to describe how Newscorpse works hand in glove with conservative Neo liberal parties across the anglosphere to distract working and middle class voters anger when said conservative parties are on the nose.

 

There is precious little in this story to warrant anything more than two inches in column 8 or a small story on page 11 of the tabloids and yet we get this headline screamer designed to divide folk for political reasons.

 

As for the actual question posed - did captain Cook discover or invade Australia - the answer is that he did neither. His first voyage was one of scientific discovery - his main role was to ferry a bunch of eccentrics from the Royal Society on a jaunt around the globe as they collected stuff and took measurements. His secondary task was with his own fields of scientific expertise - navigation and cartography - he may not have discovered Australia but he accuracy tell mapped it's east cost.

 

After this first voyage the English fracked off for another 18 years. Nothing else would have happened if Banks didn't write a little note to the colonial office and Admiralty that Botany Bay might make a good substitute penalty colony for North America. Bizarrely this note was turned into an actual policy and without much planning, no further reconnaissance or a forward landing party off they set. The letters patent and the actual objectives were a muddled mess reminiscent of the confused Dardanelles campaign over z century later - indeed if one were to pick which plan was likely to succeed of the two you'd pick Gallipoli every time. Proof that the whole show was a cock up can be seen when Phillip abandoned Botany Bay as soon as he arrived. The First Fleet was exceedingly lucky that they found water in Port Jackson the following day otherwise they were well and truly fracked. Yet for all that they survived and the rest they say is history.

 

The reason why the history deniers have wriggle room to deny that the First Fleet was an invasion fleet lies in the fact that the whole enterprise was a confused mess. Nobody really knew why they were there. That said from the get go it got brutish and nasty - traits that only got worse the more that NSW proved to be viable.

Edited by Andrew #1

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Pretty sure Captain Cook planted a flag in the Torres Strait and claimed the east coast of Australia for England, so that sounds pretty invadey to me.

 

If you roll into my house and plonk your stubbie holder on my coffee table and claim it as your house, I am calling that an invasion.

Given that the poms did nothing to pursue this flag planting for18 years it's hardly proof positive of intent. What the flag planting was really about was a cock blocking manoeuvre aimed at the French

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I was talking with an aboriginal bloke at work recently and we were talking about this issue. It was interesting to hear from him that as far as he is concerned, many aboriginal people just want to move on, but without acknowledgement of what happened for them, they can't. And they feel that needs to come from the top and he was saying he doubts any political party appears willing to do that. What Rudd attempted to do was perceived is mere lip service. And he said it's not about a legal position. They just want what they experienced acknowledged rather than denied. It was an interesting chat.

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Does anyone know what the "legal" effects are? I Interneted and couldn't find anything, looks like a BS excuse to me.

 

What exactly are the reasons against recognition of the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia before British Settlement in the constitution? From my understanding all the other former British Colonies have done it.

 

There is a generation of aboriginal people living in Australia right now that were kidnapped, abused and forced into slavery by the federal government FFS. The current federal government should be bending over backward to acknowledge them and swear an oath on their first day at work they will never let anything like it occur again.

 

If the politicians and bureaucrats can't do this without causing "legal issues"(whatever the hell that means) they should be ashamed of their incompetence... If, on the other hand, they won't do it because they think they might loose some votes... They are f'ing disgraceful human beings.

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Does anyone know what the "legal" effects are? I Interneted and couldn't find anything, looks like a BS excuse to me.

 

What exactly are the reasons against recognition of the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia before British Settlement in the constitution? From my understanding all the other former British Colonies have done it.

 

There is a generation of aboriginal people living in Australia right now that were kidnapped, abused and forced into slavery by the federal government FFS. The current federal government should be bending over backward to acknowledge them and swear an oath on their first day at work they will never let anything like it occur again.

 

If the politicians and bureaucrats can't do this without causing "legal issues"(whatever the hell that means) they should be ashamed of their incompetence... If, on the other hand, they won't do it because they think they might loose some votes... They are f'ing disgraceful human beings.

 

And yet the likes of Andrew Bolt and Alan Jones refuse to accept that there was even a stolen generation. ....

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Does anyone know what the "legal" effects are? I Interneted and couldn't find anything, looks like a BS excuse to me.

 

What exactly are the reasons against recognition of the aboriginal inhabitants of Australia before British Settlement in the constitution? From my understanding all the other former British Colonies have done it.

 

 

Reparations.

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didn't we say 'sorry'. i am unsure what we are meant to do. We also have specific jobs for the indigenous and every government i have ever known has tried to fix the problem. I don't know what needs to be done, It is not dissimilar to the US issue with the Indians or other countries with their indigenous persons. I am also sure there are some indigenous persons here that are happy for the opportunities they do receive in this country.

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didn't we say 'sorry'. i am unsure what we are meant to do. We also have specific jobs for the indigenous and every government i have ever known has tried to fix the problem. I don't know what needs to be done, It is not dissimilar to the US issue with the Indians or other countries with their indigenous persons. I am also sure there are some indigenous persons here that are happy for the opportunities they do receive in this country.

 

It really wasn't that long ago that the Australian government carried out child abduction racism and slavery, people from the stolen generation are alive today. Damn straight they should have to pay reparations.

 

Just for a moment imagine your grandparent was treated that way by the federal government. Would you be appeased with a "sorry"?

 

The scars from the atrocious acts of the Australian government are generational, families grow up with personal stories of the government forcibly removing members of their family because of racism. This isn't some invading army or military dictatorship that will be overthrown, this is the democratically elected government. There was nobody they could turn to, there was no help, they couldn't even cross the border to the "safety" of a refugee camp.

 

If that happened to your grandma and grampa would you and your parents just move on? Would you have the world view and the life you have now do you think?

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but they asked for the 'sorry'. They asked for land. We do provide some funding for them, what will they do with more money or reparations?

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What would you want, if it were your grandparents, or if it happened today and the government took your children from you because of your race?

 

The money doesn't matter, what matters is if the Aboriginal people of Australia want recognition in our constitution they should have it. If the people that were considered "Fauna" by the Australian Federal Government up until 1967 need extra funding, support and job assistance for the next 200 years, they should get it. Because the government fcuked up and while the white people of Australia's lives improved dramatically over the past 50 years, the Aboriginal people's did not.

 

I don't care if it costs 10 new submarines, or empties 20 off shore accounts, if it were my family the government would never be forgiven, ever. But pretending the government have done enough, or that it might cost money to acknowledge the Aboriginal people in the constitution is abhorrently shameful in my opinion, the government are spineless cowards.

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i am unsure what funding they do get now, but didnt know they got nothing. I just dont know if throwing more money at them solves the problem and if funding should be provided to 4th 5th 6th 7th generations. i did know of one of our workers was part aboriginal who was receiving free taxi transport. Though this was many years ago. I dont have any bias but it does astound me that every government seems to unable to succeed in solving any problem. I feel it is a more important to break down any racism that may still exist.

 

I mean, it wasnt that long ago in the US that they were using colored people as slaves, which is just as abhorent as the stolen generation, but they havent thrown money at them. Rather they drafted a constitution that states, 'all men are created equal' . So just in my opinion, at some stage we all have to move forward, but still learn from any mistakes.

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It really wasn't that long ago that the Australian government carried out child abduction racism and slavery, people from the stolen generation are alive today. Damn straight they should have to pay reparations.

 

Just for a moment imagine your grandparent was treated that way by the federal government. Would you be appeased with a "sorry"?

 

The scars from the atrocious acts of the Australian government are generational, families grow up with personal stories of the government forcibly removing members of their family because of racism. This isn't some invading army or military dictatorship that will be overthrown, this is the democratically elected government. There was nobody they could turn to, there was no help, they couldn't even cross the border to the "safety" of a refugee camp.

 

If that happened to your grandma and grampa would you and your parents just move on? Would you have the world view and the life you have now do you think?

 

I think a lot of people forget this wasn't just a race issue. There were a lot of white babies removed from predominately single mothers as well. The argument seemed to be that if you didn't fit the stereotypical family setup you couldn't be trusted with a child.

 

From what I can see, one of the unintended consequences of the stolen generation these days is that there are indigenous kids that don't get removed from family situations that are horrendous. Then again DOCS (or whatever they are called) seem to regularly get hauled over the coals for white kids being left in homes when they shouldn't be, with some terrible consequences as well.

Edited by Gundy
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My wife being a teacher with a background in social work, I have seen/heard about a lot of the work of DoCS (or whatever its called now) and its a disgrace.

 

I know they are probably over-worked and under-staffed, but some of this stuff my wife has seen makes you want to cry.

 

As an example, she had a young girl in her class a few years back, maybe 6-7. My wife immediately recognised the signs of physical and sexual abuse .... despite the fact the she came to school in the same clothes for days on end, wasn't fed, not been bathed for weeks etc.

 

DoCS approached but 'not enough evidence' ...

 

Got to the stage where my wife and the principal were terrified of school holidays, as they were convinced she might not get safely through a week or two at home and make it back to school next term.

 

it took TWO YEARS of teachers harping at the department to get something done. By this time my wife had left the school. A year after she left my wife got an email from her old principal to say the kid had been removed from her family...

 

TWO ****ING YEARS!!!

 

And if the Daily Telegraph knew something the first hing published would be 'why didn't the teachers do something?'....

 

My wife has a dozen stories like that...

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It really wasn't that long ago that the Australian government carried out child abduction racism and slavery, people from the stolen generation are alive today. Damn straight they should have to pay reparations.

 

Just for a moment imagine your grandparent was treated that way by the federal government. Would you be appeased with a "sorry"?

 

The scars from the atrocious acts of the Australian government are generational, families grow up with personal stories of the government forcibly removing members of their family because of racism. This isn't some invading army or military dictatorship that will be overthrown, this is the democratically elected government. There was nobody they could turn to, there was no help, they couldn't even cross the border to the "safety" of a refugee camp.

 

If that happened to your grandma and grampa would you and your parents just move on? Would you have the world view and the life you have now do you think?

This

Indigenous folk were royally screwed over for multiple generations and the rest of the country benefited from cheap/free/slave labour in rural industries.

We will probably be dealing with this for generations to come. The debt owed is huge, the debate is about how it can be addressed.

What would you want, if it were your grandparents, or if it happened today and the government took your children from you because of your race?

 

The money doesn't matter, what matters is if the Aboriginal people of Australia want recognition in our constitution they should have it. If the people that were considered "Fauna" by the Australian Federal Government up until 1967 need extra funding, support and job assistance for the next 200 years, they should get it. Because the government fcuked up and while the white people of Australia's lives improved dramatically over the past 50 years, the Aboriginal people's did not.

 

I don't care if it costs 10 new submarines, or empties 20 off shore accounts, if it were my family the government would never be forgiven, ever. But pretending the government have done enough, or that it might cost money to acknowledge the Aboriginal people in the constitution is abhorrently shameful in my opinion, the government are spineless cowards.

 

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Tapatalk

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I know they are probably over-worked and under-staffed, but some of this stuff my wife has seen makes you want to cry.

 

 

 

I hate thinking about what these poor kids endure.

Even moreso now that I've got kids of my own.

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Serious question - how many generations does "debts" get held for before a line is drawn under it? Just would like to know before I go discover any Viking or Goth heritage as it could be bloody expensive if this stuff goes back to the start of time.

 

If we all carry on the prejudices and injustices of all of our ancestors, surprised Romeo & Juliet is not an every day occurrence by now

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Serious question - how many generations does "debts" get held for before a line is drawn under it? Just would like to know before I go discover any Viking or Goth heritage as it could be bloody expensive if this stuff goes back to the start of time.

 

 

 

MM says forever.

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The thing is though, we're still doing it. We don't treat the aboriginal people with the respect they deserve. We see there are certain problems in their communities and swoop in to fix it for them. Have a look at the Northern Territory Intervention. We can't help ourselves. We're idiots. Unless and until we stop this kind of crap and work WITH the aboriginal people, it's going to continue.

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Serious question - how many generations does "debts" get held for before a line is drawn under it? Just would like to know before I go discover any Viking or Goth heritage as it could be bloody expensive if this stuff goes back to the start of time.

 

If we all carry on the prejudices and injustices of all of our ancestors, surprised Romeo & Juliet is not an every day occurrence by now

 

This is not a family feud over honor, or even war, it is the democratically elected government implementing racist legislation and abducting children because of their skin colour. Did you miss the bit about being classified as "Fauna" up until 1967? Quite a jump from 1967 to "the beginning of time", we just don't even need to go back that far, is the Prime Minsters life time enough for you?

The government can stop paying for their mistakes as soon as Aboriginal Australians have the same life expectancy, living standards, educational standards and employment opportunities that other Australians have. Pretty straight forward. If the government wastes money failing to achieve the goal... well that is just another failure of government, the people with 10 years less life expectancy are not the ones to blame.

 

Do you genuinely think you would be over it by now if your grandparents were abducted by the government and forced into re-education centers with signs saying "act white black, think white black, be white black" on the walls and then forced into child labor for other families?

 

The government should Acknowledge the Aboriginal people in the constitution, they can do it next year on the 50th anniversary of Aboriginals being granted full citizenship.

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mm, i believe in equality so agree with you. i don't know if i believe in continually treating our indigenous as special, over some of our refugees so am definitely all for full citizenship. I think we can't keep dwelling on the past mistakes of our ancestors. We should always acknowledge that this was a disgraceful time, but hopefully we have learnt. Even the germans had to move on after the atrocities of world war 2. We remember what happened but we shouldn't continually pay for it. We should spend our time and money stamping out any racism or unequal rights.

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We just need to pay for it until it is fixed, until Aboriginal people have the same health, life expectancy and education levels as other Australians.

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fair enough. i read where tony cut some funding last year or maybe it was 2014. it didn't get a lot of attention unfortunately.

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We just need to pay for it until it is fixed, until Aboriginal people have the same health, life expectancy and education levels as other Australians.

Self determination comes from dealing with your circumstances using the resources you have available and taking responsibility for your outcomes. It does not come from focusing on who is to blame for your circumstances or what you don't have to fix it and ego should provide it.

 

There's no doubt that our society as a whole is racist and that aboriginals start from a position of disadvantage but throwing resources at the problem doesn't fix that. We should be exposing the examples (and there are plenty) of those who have succeeded in spite of the barriers placed in front of them instead of providing excuses for those that choose to perpetuate the circle misfortune.

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We just need to pay for it until it is fixed, until Aboriginal people have the same health, life expectancy and education levels as other Australians.

But how do we pay for it? Throwing money at it doesn't work. My employer is trying to provide services for communities through Gov funding, but is meeting brick walls from other communities not allowing us to do it, or creating such issues that it costs twice as much to do it. Or in an even worse case, being blocked from providing a service by other parts of the community that is asking for it in the first place.

 

There has to be a way, we just need to find it.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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Once again it is not about the money. If the only solution the government has is to throw money at it then that is the Governments solution, if it fails then it is the Governments failure.

 

Some people still think Aboriginal Australians should just "get over it". I think that attitude is ignorant, I am surprised so many believe they themselves could "overcome" how their direct relations have been treated this way(I am not talking about ancestors here). Particularly when so many other people who really have experienced this, haven't managed to overcome their circumstances. There may very well be lessons learned in the success stories, the government should look at incorporating that into their programs.

 

Yeah, I will be called a lefty or communist or whatever. But I see a demographic the government has committed horrible crimes against that are now in need of assistance because of those crimes, they should get help until they no longer need it. The government doesn't get to wash their hands of it after a certain dollar amount is reached.

 

The Australian Government blows vast amounts of money on failed projects, ill-conceived policies and subsidising dying industries. I really don't think this is an area were the recipients of the funds should take the blame for not improving their own life expectancy.

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Quite a jump from 1967 to "the beginning of time",

 

Agree, however my question still stands unanswered. How far back do you believe we need to go before we are not held to account for the sins of our fore fathers?

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