Jump to content
goughy

Cardinal Pell

Recommended Posts

They will let him out in June on the appeal. 

This is the first case where I’ve seen media and many people treat him as still on trial because he has an appeal.

all cases where the defendant agrees the event occurred rely on the credibility of the parties and supporting witnesses around supporting evidence.

We can’t really be saying there was no witness to the act or cctv so I don’t believe you,

though we do that with road rage on cyclists 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

........ anyway surely if he wasn’t guilty a benevolent god would have intervened. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, -- AJ -- said:

Thats why I asked the question and its left me wondering on what grounds he was convicted.

Because on the surface it appears to me that we might have reached the stage where the unsubstantiated and unsupported testimony of an individual is enough to send another individual to jail and ruin their lives. 

Not good.

AJ

The unsubstantiated and unsupported testimony of an individual was enough for the Democrats in the US to try to ruin another individual's life and end his legal career last year...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not too many of the Me Too's that have come to light have been unsubstantiated and more importantly uncorroborated. 

While the first one to bravely stick their heads up usually cops the disbelief etc, then when a few more feel supported and come forward the the evidence starts to stack up. 

Sure, we always run the risk of a revenge complaint, but considering how the system has been run for soo long, and how many perpetrators have got away with stuff because of the adversarial and vicious nature of the way the system has been run, Im happy that we take that risk. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see now he is a register sex offender he can no longer hold a passport.

No more Rome

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, roxii said:

........ anyway surely if he wasn’t guilty a benevolent god would have intervened. 

“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Perhaps that means he's focusing on the appeal... and plans to smite all and sundry for 'crucifying' his cardinal ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, roxii said:

Not too many of the Me Too's that have come to light have been unsubstantiated and more importantly uncorroborated. 

While the first one to bravely stick their heads up usually cops the disbelief etc, then when a few more feel supported and come forward the the evidence starts to stack up. 

Sure, we always run the risk of a revenge complaint, but considering how the system has been run for soo long, and how many perpetrators have got away with stuff because of the adversarial and vicious nature of the way the system has been run, Im happy that we take that risk. 

Good post. Bit of a worry people posting on here casting doubt on the judical process and doubting the victim testimony. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Good post. Bit of a worry people posting on here casting doubt on the judical process and doubting the victim testimony. 

Agree wholeheartedly.

No-one outside the court has heard the testimony of the victim. The jury has heard all the witnesses AND Pells defence and determined that the witness is reliable and the abuse did happen. There is no way all 12 jury members would be so biased against Pell as to ignore instructions given by the Judge to only consider the evidence shown to them in the trial.

What I don't know is what is Pells appeal based on? Can you say "I don't like the outcome and will keep appealing until I get let off"? I thought there needed to be some procedural fault in the court case or new evidence to allow a re-trial.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, flathead said:

What I don't know is what is Pells appeal based on? Can you say "I don't like the outcome and will keep appealing until I get let off"? I thought there needed to be some procedural fault in the court case or new evidence to allow a re-trial.

I'm curious about that as well.  It can't be that Pell didn't get an opportunity to tell his side of the story, as he opted not to take the stand

And his counsel stated that his offending was at the lower end of the scale, so to speak, which sounds like an admission to me...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Word on the street is that the appeal could be based on the belief that priests are not subject to the laws of the land .... they are subject to the laws of God and that’s why he didn’t swear in the bible or take the stand in his defence.

Seems a real long shot, but go your hardest, George!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Rimmer said:

Word on the street is that the appeal could be based on the belief that priests are not subject to the laws of the land .... they are subject to the laws of God and that’s why he didn’t swear in the bible or take the stand in his defence.

Seems a real long shot, but go your hardest, George!!!

So are they saying the laws of God allow old men to molest young boys. That could open a whole can of worms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BarryBevan said:

Good post. Bit of a worry people posting on here casting doubt on the judical process and doubting the victim testimony. 

Most are die in the heart Catholics that believe nothing bad in their organisation.

This is awesome.  Just the start

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe that one possible basis for appeal is that the jury decision was unreasonable and/or incorrect - essentially that the jury was influenced by factors other than the evidence, or misguided/misdirected by the judge. Certainly, the Chamberlain case demonstrates that the jury system is not infallible, and the judge did deny the defense its 'pacman' presentation, but I'd imagine they will struggle convince an appellate court on that basis alone. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, that's the way I thought they may go.

I still believe, sadly, that an appeal may be successful!  I hope I'm wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, goughy said:

I still believe, sadly, that an appeal may be successful!  I hope I'm wrong.

I'm not as sure they will be successful. The courts are hard to convince they should overturn an 'unsafe' jury decision, because it undermines the basis of the system, regardless of it's known flaws. I think they'd need to come up with a lot more than a 'they was wrong' argument. The Chaimberlain case is a good example, where the appeals failed (one judge even commented that they should not have even been given the opportunity to appeal) and was only overturned on new evidence. Attacking the judge refusing the pacman presentation might have some chance, but that would likely result in a re-trial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whats the pacman presentation? 

 

Im struggling to join the dots?? :lol: 

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also picked up yesterday that Pell was released during his 14 days between the ruling and sentencing to get a knee operation.  Unsure for how long and the media haven't picked up on it as far as I've seen.

Imagine the embarrassment for him having to provide a semen sample to police now that he is a registered sex offender.

Jerking off in front for a few police.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm guessing one of the problems with the Pacman vid, is that it is a description of what technically may happen on any particular Sunday mass day, but may not have been what happened on that day, or any other day.  They probably can't prove that every single person that's described on it follows that exact course to the minute every single Sunday mass without exception?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Assume that the judge is competent and when he looked at the proposed pac man the made a judgment that it was deceptive. Id the appeal court does not agree then another trial with Pacman.

Is anyone launching a civil suit against the church. why do we even have churches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, BarryBevan said:

why do we even have churches.

Sanctuary from black witches & vampires.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

why do we even have churches.

Where else could the Nazis hide their ill gotten gains? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Good post. Bit of a worry people posting on here casting doubt on the judical process and doubting the victim testimony. 

who?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, goughy said:

Yes, that's the way I thought they may go.

I still believe, sadly, that an appeal may be successful!  I hope I'm wrong.

it would be very unlikely, even if he wins an appeal to be released, so it would mean another trial with a jury at best. He is done and dusted i would think.   I do think though, his lawyers will get him released to some sort of hall way house or home detention though after a while due to his supposedly ill health. he ain't living in my street though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Prince said:

it would be very unlikely, even if he wins an appeal to be released, so it would mean another trial with a jury at best. He is done and dusted i would think.   I do think though, his lawyers will get him released to some sort of hall way house or home detention though after a while due to his supposedly ill health. he ain't living in my street though. 

If they win an appeal that the jury's decision was unreasonable and/or unsafe based on the evidence presented, then that could well result in an acquittal. If they win an appeal based on a technical aspect (as as the pac-man thing) then that would result in a retrial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Peter said:

I see now he is a register sex offender he can no longer hold a passport.

No more Rome

Shame really, it removed the ability for the judge to pass the sentence of feeding the 'christian' to the lions

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, XCOM.! said:

I believe that one possible basis for appeal is that the jury decision was unreasonable and/or incorrect - essentially that the jury was influenced by factors other than the evidence, or misguided/misdirected by the judge. Certainly, the Chamberlain case demonstrates that the jury system is not infallible, and the judge did deny the defense its 'pacman' presentation, but I'd imagine they will struggle convince an appellate court on that basis alone. 

And another possibility is that Pell was the figurehead to lynch as part of a vendetta against the Catholic Church. I don't believe this would be successful as he was given ample opportunity during the trial to proclaim his innocence, but chose not to and instructed his counsel not to. These are active, not passive, decisions. 

Furthermore, when his counsel described the acts as vanilla, there is an open admission of guilt. I cannot see this appeal being successful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't forget though, that his counsels description of the events was not sitting the trial itself, he was already found guilty!  This was to do with his sentencing, and they can't claim he didn't do the events as he has been found guilty!  So I don't think those descriptions will have any bearing on an appeal.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, goughy said:

Don't forget though, that his counsels description of the events was not sitting the trial itself, he was already found guilty!  This was to do with his sentencing, and they can't claim he didn't do the events as he has been found guilty!  So I don't think those descriptions will have any bearing on an appeal.

Absolutely ... the only grounds for a successful appeal would be an erring in law. Facts have nothing to do with an appeal process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Rimmer said:

Absolutely ... the only grounds for a successful appeal would be an erring in law. Facts have nothing to do with an appeal process.

I pity the poor learner lawyers that have to go thru everything word for word trying to find some issue. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Peter said:

I also picked up yesterday that Pell was released during his 14 days between the ruling and sentencing to get a knee operation.  Unsure for how long and the media haven't picked up on it as far as I've seen.

Imagine the embarrassment for him having to provide a semen sample to police now that he is a registered sex offender.

Jerking off in front for a few police.  

The verdict was last year, but it was only (officially) reported a couple of weeks ago when the suppression order was lifted.   His knee operation was after the  conviction but before it was made public.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A Qld ex priest has had his guilty verdict for taking nude photos of a schoolboy in the 1970's overturned.  Not a question of whether he took them or not, but his defence successfully argued that he had to be charged based on what the law was at the time, and in the 70's it wasn't illegal to do so!

  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was hoping to open this and Pell was dead. 

Oh well. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep praying....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, goughy said:

A Qld ex priest has had his guilty verdict for taking nude photos of a schoolboy in the 1970's overturned.  Not a question of whether he took them or not, but his defence successfully argued that he had to be charged based on what the law was at the time, and in the 70's it wasn't illegal to do so!

There was a lot of weird stuff going on in the 70s .... but just NO!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Peter said:

I was hoping to open this and Pell was dead. 

Oh well. 

Wow...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 08/03/2019 at 4:53 AM, XCOM.! said:

Beware the Pentecostals and their targeting of schools and kids.

There is an interesting article on the Pentecostal church that our PM belongs to.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/inside-our-pentecostal-pm-s-church-20190416-p51ekx.html

Over the past decade, Pentecostalism in Australia has grown by 30 per cent, despite the overall Christian population dropping 4 per cent. About 400,000 Australians attend a Pentecostal or charismatic church each week. Perhaps most importantly, while congregations of all other Christian denominations are ageing, the average age at Pentecostal services is 39. According to Kristy, the median age for Horizon worshippers is in the mid-20s.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/04/2019 at 4:40 PM, Ironnerd said:

There is an interesting article on the Pentecostal church that our PM belongs to.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/inside-our-pentecostal-pm-s-church-20190416-p51ekx.html

Over the past decade, Pentecostalism in Australia has grown by 30 per cent, despite the overall Christian population dropping 4 per cent. About 400,000 Australians attend a Pentecostal or charismatic church each week. Perhaps most importantly, while congregations of all other Christian denominations are ageing, the average age at Pentecostal services is 39. According to Kristy, the median age for Horizon worshippers is in the mid-20s.

 

On 20/04/2019 at 4:40 PM, Ironnerd said:

There is an interesting article on the Pentecostal church that our PM belongs to.

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/inside-our-pentecostal-pm-s-church-20190416-p51ekx.html

Over the past decade, Pentecostalism in Australia has grown by 30 per cent, despite the overall Christian population dropping 4 per cent. About 400,000 Australians attend a Pentecostal or charismatic church each week. Perhaps most importantly, while congregations of all other Christian denominations are ageing, the average age at Pentecostal services is 39. According to Kristy, the median age for Horizon worshippers is in the mid-20s.

Such a bull crap article clearly aimed at political damage as opposed to anything else. 

The journos aren't even trying to be objective, every sentence is loaded with their opinions. Poor people couldn't even smile without being mocked for it.

I can't recall the investigative articles on Kevin Rudds Baptist church, Tony Abbott's Catholic church or John Howard's place of worship. 

Pentecostal churches aren't my cup of tea, but really, it's election time and if you think this article is about anything more than votes you are missing the point.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I only worship the church of Ironman. First service of the year coming up on 5th May.

Come and join the party. BYO rubber for the swim leg. Lots of encouragement during and a nice massage when we are all done. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, dazaau said:

 

Such a bull crap article clearly aimed at political damage as opposed to anything else. 

The journos aren't even trying to be objective, every sentence is loaded with their opinions. Poor people couldn't even smile without being mocked for it.

I can't recall the investigative articles on Kevin Rudds Baptist church, Tony Abbott's Catholic church or John Howard's place of worship. 

Pentecostal churches aren't my cup of tea, but really, it's election time and if you think this article is about anything more than votes you are missing the point.

Happy Easter. Enjoy your long weekend.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets be objective, speaking in tongues:

"glossolalia does not make any sense. It is a language that “is not known to man”, which means it can’t bring anything useful beyond impressing some easily impressing people."

These people are either in need of serious help or making stuff up, for benefit, control, financial.

This country is getting worse, we had Chris Smith going on about Folau the other day saying well we are a christian country so he should be able to say these things., because we are christians. Australia is a secular nation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Happy Easter. Enjoy your long weekend.

Likewise! I'm pretty disappointed it's almost over :( 

Tucking into yet another variant of hot cross bun. Since when was apple cinnamon a thing? Good though...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dazaau said:

Tucking into yet another variant of hot cross bun. Since when was apple cinnamon a thing? Good though...

ButterScotch-StickyDate  hot cross buns - yum... I could get religious about those.

  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Almost certain he will be released or get a retrial 

picked the election 4 weeks out to

I just want to know whos funding him to pay the lawyers?

It's not the church.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Peter said:

I just want to know whos funding him to pay the lawyers?

It's not the church.

I thought it was crowd funding by supporters. My concern is he’ll get off and end up with a tax payer funded pension.😡

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, fiftyplus said:

I thought it was crowd funding by supporters. My concern is he’ll get off and end up with a tax payer funded pension.😡

Of course he will be freed. For the same reason I picked the election result.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...