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Cardinal Pell

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8 hours ago, fiftyplus said:

Unfortunately, I think any government that would try and get the churches to pay taxes and rates would be political suicide. Don’t they come under the so called, non profit organisation  banner?

Is it just Australia where they get away with it, or is it world wide?

All religions, as far as I can tell are tax exempt in UK,,sadly.

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On 05/03/2019 at 8:33 PM, Cottoneyes said:

Anyone else wondering if there is a special taskforce beavering away at the moment in the Vatican organising a papal tour here to ensure the faith (ie Sunday donations) is kept

They did one in Ireland to try and counter the backlash from the Abortion referendum and expected millions to Phoenix Park .... all of the "Yes" side of the debate ordered thousands of free tickets and didn't show up. 

Quite telling how unpopular the Church is!

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3 hours ago, FatPom said:

All religions, as far as I can tell are tax exempt in UK,,sadly.

Yep, true - strange how they can get away with it by their "business" being the peddling of lies, fairy stories, pixies and goblins!

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58 minutes ago, Rimmer said:

Yep, true - strange how they can get away with it by their "business" being the peddling of lies, fairy stories, pixies and goblins!

I’m sure it would these their faith if it was no longer as lucrative. It would be interesting to see how many religions would cease to exist if not for the financial perks. 

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46 minutes ago, roxii said:

I’m sure it would these their faith if it was no longer as lucrative. It would be interesting to see how many religions would cease to exist if not for the financial perks. 

You only need to go to church and see that 90% won’t be here in 20years. 

90% aren’t here now that we’re here 20 years ago. 

 

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9 hours ago, Peter said:

You only need to go to church and see that 90% won’t be here in 20years. 

90% aren’t here now that we’re here 20 years ago. 

 

Beware the Pentecostals and their targeting of schools and kids.

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11 hours ago, Rimmer said:

Yep, true - strange how they can get away with it by their "business" being the peddling of lies, fairy stories, pixies and goblins!

It is also the cereals and other products eg Sanitium, Kellogs that are church fronts, so don't pay tax

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4 hours ago, XCOM.! said:

Beware the Pentecostals and their targeting of schools and kids.

I agree with XCOM.

If you go into a traditional church 90% of the people are over the age of 50. In 20 years time these churches will be empty.

However the new age churches, like Hillsong, are filling warehouse size churches with young people and modern music.

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Yep, they have their happy clapping and regular youth get togethers.  My son sometimes goes to Friday night youth group at on of the churches with his mates.  Non are religious; he says they tube out for the 30min of god bothering.  The rest is fun.

 

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Now, you might have felt that I was a bit down on Religion .... but you have to hand it to those guys when it comes to architecture (i.e. monuments to themselves) and music (pre-1900, of course). 

Now it seems that the churches will become apartments and the music will be forgotten.

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3 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

 R Kelly has a more credible defence than Pell

why? because he is a nut job?

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Just now, Prince said:

why? because he is a nut job?

Some of his "victims" are testifying for his defence

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1 hour ago, BarryBevan said:

Some of his "victims" are testifying for his defence

then the lot of em are nut jobs....

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1 hour ago, Prince said:

then the lot of em are nut jobs....

yes. Most people think R kelly is guilty, but he has a better defence than pell, who has a lot of people saying it is all a stitch up

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2 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

yes. Most people think R kelly is guilty, but he has a better defence than pell, who has a lot of people saying it is all a stitch up

I think with pell, as the victims that I have seen in the media are clearly still traumatised which makes me believe its true. They break down when describing the events so I am sure that would have shown on the stand. no average person is that good of an actor.  as for Kelly, I think he too should take the stand. 

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On 09/03/2019 at 11:25 AM, BarryBevan said:

Some of his "victims" are testifying for his defence

Same as Michael Jackson's victims, doesn't mean it didn't happen

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1 minute ago, Peter said:

Whens d day for pell?

Tomorrow morning, and will apparently be broadcast live on TV.

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4 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Agree 100% with him so far

yep, sounds like he is preparing to give him some good jail time...

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1 minute ago, Prince said:

yep, sounds like he is preparing to give him some good jail time...

Whilst also noting that it is Pell on trial, not the church

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sounds like he won't get jail time.

Putting too many age and health caveats in it

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did he also just qualify it by saying he has a stellar reputation with no other offending in the last 22 years?

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Yep

Also basically just said that the court of public opinion will reduce the sentence as well

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The maximum penalty when he performed the sex acts were 10 years max.

This ruling will be interesting

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He needs to wrap this up.  Over an hour of his own voice.

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George Pell gets 6 years

Judge summary was of 5 acts upon the 2 boys aged 13. Over a 1 month period.

Judge said if it has been premeditate or the boys groomed, the sentence would have been worse.

But will be out after 3 years.

 

Edited by Peter

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6 years...non parole of 3yrs 8 mths...suffer in your jocks Pell...

Edited by Prince

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There is a really interesting article on the ABC today on the psychological reason why some can't believe the evidence against George Pell and Michael Jackson. It also applies to the family of the Claremont serial killer who maintain that he is innocent.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-13/george-pell-michael-jackson-cognitive-dissonance/10892948

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12 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

There is a really interesting article on the ABC today on the psychological reason why some can't believe the evidence against George Pell and Michael Jackson. It also applies to the family of the Claremont serial killer who maintain that he is innocent.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-13/george-pell-michael-jackson-cognitive-dissonance/10892948

the Jackson case is a bit more complex. Pell was found guilty in a court of law whilst Jackson was not. 

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1 hour ago, Prince said:

the Jackson case is a bit more complex. Pell was found guilty in a court of law whilst Jackson was not. 

And Pell is a Catholic

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1 hour ago, Prince said:

the Jackson case is a bit more complex. Pell was found guilty in a court of law whilst Jackson was not. 

Are you saying that you are suffering from cognitive dissonance in regards to the Jackson case?😋

While Jackson was found not guilty over one allegation, there have been out of court settlements and many accusers over a 20+ year period. I think that if Jackson were alive today he likely would be convicted. Society has moved on and society attitudes towards child sexual abuse allegations has changed. 

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1 hour ago, Ironnerd said:

 

While Jackson was found not guilty over one allegation, there have been out of court settlements and many accusers over a 20+ year period. I think that if Jackson were alive today he likely would be convicted. Society has moved on and society attitudes towards child sexual abuse allegations has changed. 

there were two other accusers actually. Unfortunately the docs didn't interview the other 10 or so boys who also slept in is room and weren't molested. The two subjects of the doco have both carefully said that 'they didn't know it was abuse'.  There is a reason for them saying this. This is due to a loophole in the statute of limitations in california where if the victim wasn't aware it was abuse they can still sue, which is what they have bother been trying to do.    One of these accusers testified for Jackson twice in regards to the previous two accusers so please tell me how the heck he wouldn't know what abuse is....puhleeease. 

There is a lot more to this case than a 4 hr one sided doco. 

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1 hour ago, Prince said:

there were two other accusers actually. Unfortunately the docs didn't interview the other 10 or so boys who also slept in is room and weren't molested. The two subjects of the doco have both carefully said that 'they didn't know it was abuse'.  There is a reason for them saying this. This is due to a loophole in the statute of limitations in california where if the victim wasn't aware it was abuse they can still sue, which is what they have bother been trying to do.    One of these accusers testified for Jackson twice in regards to the previous two accusers so please tell me how the heck he wouldn't know what abuse is....puhleeease. 

There is a lot more to this case than a 4 hr one sided doco. 

Indeed, it’s a Thriller :lol: 

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1 hour ago, -- AJ -- said:

I havn't particularly followed the case.  Was there any scientific evidence or was it all hearsay?

How could there be any scientific or forensic evidence in this type of case? It happened decades ago with the defendant involved in covering up the complaint

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1 hour ago, -- AJ -- said:

I havn't particularly followed the case.  Was there any scientific evidence or was it all hearsay?

with Pell, the jury simply believed the victim. I would say he must have been very compelling.  

 

with Jackson, he was guilty in the public eye based on a 4hr movie with two of the so called  'victims'. one of which testified twice and did several interviews defending Jackson that he was never abused. 

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9 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

How could there be any scientific or forensic evidence in this type of case? It happened decades ago with the defendant involved in covering up the complaint

Thats why I asked the question and its left me wondering on what grounds he was convicted.

Because on the surface it appears to me that we might have reached the stage where the unsubstantiated and unsupported testimony of an individual is enough to send another individual to jail and ruin their lives. 

Not good.

AJ

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14 minutes ago, -- AJ -- said:

Thats why I asked the question and its left me wondering on what grounds he was convicted.

Because on the surface it appears to me that we might have reached the stage where the unsubstantiated and unsupported testimony of an individual is enough to send another individual to jail and ruin their lives. 

Not good.

AJ

or with some cases, even if there is not even a trial, just ruining lives. who knows if any of the 'me too' allegations against celebrities are actually bogus. I think with Pell,  I have no doubt it was also  based on how the prosecutor presented the case, so unless we see the transcripts or were there, is hard to comment. but, I guess that's why we have a  jury of a 12 persons. they can't all be wrong. 

Edited by Prince

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In effect, no different than a date rape case where the guy claims it was consensual and the girl doesn't?  Does that mean every time the guy should be found not guilty?

Personally, I think he's guilty of this and much much more!  Go watch the 4 corners special from last Monday.  Just think about what kind of person would protect a paedophile above others?  Only other paedophiles.  Cause everyone else in the world thinks they're filth! I couldn't even see how a non paedophile priest would protect them.  And he well and truly protected priests 

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And remember, Pell didn't testify!  His only comments came from the police interview at the Vatican years ago.  And most think he came off as completely arrogant.  None of us have seen or heard from the witness.  But a reporter who managed to track him down (never revealing his identity) said he is a prosecutors dream witness!  

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1 hour ago, -- AJ -- said:

Thats why I asked the question and its left me wondering on what grounds he was convicted.

Because on the surface it appears to me that we might have reached the stage where the unsubstantiated and unsupported testimony of an individual is enough to send another individual to jail and ruin their lives. 

Not good.

AJ

 

1 hour ago, Prince said:

or with some cases, even if there is not even a trial, just ruining lives. who knows if any of the 'me too' allegations against celebrities are actually bogus. I think with Pell,  I have no doubt it was also  based on how the prosecutor presented the case, so unless we see the transcripts or were there, is hard to comment. but, I guess that's why we have a  jury of a 12 persons. they can't all be wrong. 

Now please, understand I'm not having a go at either of you at all, just inc ase I don't say this well...

But those reasons are why so many of these types of assaults go unreported!  "Who will believe me, it's more trouble than its worth!"

I've just cleared this with my wife before mentioning....  she was basically date raped at 14, and told no one until she thought she might be pregnant, and told her mother!  He father wanted to report it but she said if he does she'll say nothing happened.  It was within her social group at school, she was shy and was scared of what would happen if she did, and others were there when it happened.  She was also molested by family friends son, although she didn't even really realise what it was until into her 20's (and we were together).  Only me and her once best friend know about it.

She is a very strong willed person, and is not a person you would think would put up with this!  But that's also one of the reasons she's been able to compartmentalise it all and it really has no effect on her today.  Today she is a person who would fight this to the ends of the earth.  But she can completely understand why it took so long to report it, as can I.  From our armchairs it's easy to think "why didn't they say something, I would have, I'd have clobbered him if he tried that on me".  But most of us will never ever know, and we're lucky for that. The complainants lawyer said, it was the death of the other boy who's life was destroyed by this, that prompted him to finally stand up for himself, but even more so for the other victim.

We also know another friend who was molested by a family member and one parent believed her but the other didn't.  It tore much of that family apart, and no charges ever came from it.  

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Understand what you're saying.  I too, know people who had been molested at an early age by a person in a position of trust and didn't report it because they didn't think they would be believed.  In cases like this my sympathies are very much with the victims.

But my concern is not for cases like that.  Its when there are vindictive liars who want to destroy somebody by claiming that things happened which never did happen.  In this era of "me too", its become a distinct possibility that an innocent person will be jailed for a crime that never happened based on the word of a vindictive individual with an axe to grind. 

And that is something we all need to be concerned about.  

BTW IMHO  If Pell is guilty of the crimes that he has been accused of, then may he receive all the punishment that those crimes demand.  

 

AJ

 

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Revenge cases are nothing new (I guess revenge will do for the description).  And there are cases of people being tried for doing this, and also people unfortunately being jailed having done nothing!  There are all kinds of crap people in the world.  It's why I don't believe in the death penalty.

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Not long enough - no "time" is easy time, but he should never be released. This man has been found guilty of a heinous crime and will not reform. He cannot be reformed. The best I can hope for is that the Church owns up to what he - and others - did and covered up and redress this. 

At least him, Best, Dowlan and Ridsdale are back together again!

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