Jump to content
goughy

Cardinal Pell

Recommended Posts

Â

Â

I'm not sure who you are quoting there but they need to give themselves an uppercut, whoever it is.  As for some  leftist dogmatic witch hunt, perhaps they should contact the victims of Jimmy Saville.  For years Saville's (and those of there celebrities) child abuse was systematically covered up by the BBC and the victims absolutely vilified and bullied in into being quiet.  As an institution, it doesn't get any more left wing luvvie PC than the BBC.

Â

For me, it's not a left vs right issue at all. Â There is however (or should be) a special place in Hell for those that think their 'religion' somehow absolves them of any wrong doing, either directly by raping children or complicitly by covering it up.

Â

I'm not sure how anyone would even begin to make this a political thing.

Who is making the case for saying religon absolves them of abusing children.

 

And is anyone advocating for bbc ppeople to be shot in the head?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who is making the case for saying religon absolves them of abusing children.

 

And is anyone advocating for bbc ppeople to be shot in the head?

 

 

Most of those paying £150 per year for the 'service' :sly:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't read through the whole thread but just wanted to say don't for a minute think think paedophiles are restricted to religious circles.

 

People are hung up on Pell and I'm glad they are. I hope he does become the Skase of the Catholic church and that Paedophilia becomes a bigger more common subject than the "road toll".

 

It's very easy to pick on Catholics because they come under that umbrella but it's just being too narrow minded.

 

This is bigger than Pell, The Catholic Church and Religion

 

Paedophilia destroys people for ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely Nealo. I guess the issue with the church is that they have actively hidden it, have at times just moved offenders to different parish's, and have said that they don't necessarily have to report it. Maybe they themselves believe they are above the law, but most of us don't seem to think that's the case. And that they hold themselves as the bastion of all that's good, and supposedly look out for those in need of help etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is bigger than Pell, The Catholic Church and Religion

 

 

Agreed, but it's hard to ignore the staggering hypocrisy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's not forget the other part of it though. They tell their priests that they cannot marry, cannot have sex but are seen to be in a position to counsel others on marriage

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always found that quite humorous Cotton,

 

Priests who have never married and never had kids then see themselves as qualified to give advice on marriage, relationships, families and kids .... WTF?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The issue with the Catholic Church is the hypocrisy, same for the Salvo's, Scouts etc. the Catholics just have a bigger audience.

 

Pell like Cardinal Law shouldn't be holed up in the holy sea away from the turmoil and destruction they have left behind. Until the Catholc Church and other organisations like the Salvo's cut these people loose and cease supporting them you will never get resolution.

 

Catholics are quiet divided on Pell, you have those that think he is a grub and those that think he is, well, beyond reproach as a Cardinal. There was almost a blue after mass at Sutherland on Sunday on the very subject and you will never get objectivity where blind faith prevails in the minds of people.

 

I think it's time for Catholics to stand up and not accept people like Pell being allowed to hide in Rome and not face the public morality they were meant to uphold and protect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always found that quite humorous Cotton,

 

Priests who have never married and never had kids then see themselves as qualified to give advice on marriage, relationships, families and kids .... WTF?

 

Hasn't always been that way though which might surprise most people. Anyone that know's their middle ages history would have heard of the "Pope's Grandchildren", a painting by Titian. The story behind it is quite interesting, seems the corruption and power grabs in the church were alot more open then

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Paul_III_and_His_Grandsons

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do think the catholic church is an outlyer in some respects compared to other institutions. For example, they claim that canon law trumps the law; they still state that reporting child rape to the authorities is not mandatory. I can't even begin to process how that is considered acceptable!

 

Also worth noting in regards of protecting the abusers above the victims, is that not only did they move priests into new areas where they could continue to rape children, they also moved their money so that they could claim bankrupcy and not pay the victims.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not just that TenPints, there is that famous photo of Pell who turned up to court in support of serial child abuser Ridsdale.

 

The thing that really made it bad was that no one from the church did anything to support his victims.

 

So they didn't just support child abusers by 'hiding them' away in another parish, they specifically provided them with legal and moral support and cut off the families/victims.

 

That one photos sums up the priorities of the Pell - using the extreme wealth and influence to support abusers, at the expense of those people who really should have been their focus for empathy and support.

 

As Trinude said .... staggering hypocrisy...

Edited by TryTriB4Forty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See guardian article above. And honestly tell me what is missing from it ?

 

What is the factual basis for saying he supported continued abuse by the way? If there is such evidence i assume he'll do time ?

 

You seem to be using the fallacy of relative privation. Nothing personal mate, honest, it's a poor approach to supporting an argument.

 

In addition, you're misprepresenting what I said. I did not state he "supported continued abuse", I stated that (when talking about Pell) his 'approach' to the subject was questionable. However, when talking about the catholic church in general I mentioned cover-ups etc, and there is plenty of evidence for that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just can't understand why, with so many experts here, that this problem wasn't sorted out years ago.

 

The issue with the Catholic Church is the hypocrisy, same for the Salvo's, Scouts etc.

Surprised you didn't add the following groups into your ridiculous generalisation...Coaches, Administrators, Politicans, Law enforcement, the ADF, School teachers, Academia etc.

 

The vast majority of people associated with these organisations (and especially the Salvos) are hard working people who go out and do their best for their fellow citizens. But you already knew that because you've been involved in their work and you know everything about them. That their good work is overlooked, scorned and belittled because of the actions of a few warped individuals is a shame.

 

For those few individuals who have sullied the reputations of these organisations, I have no respect and hope that they get everything that's due to them.

 

But you, need to apologise publicly to the rest of those people who uphold the values of their organisations the best that they can so they can help others

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AJ

 

I'll expand if you like, and I did put an etc at the end as its a long list as you point out.

 

Take the Salvo's, they do great work but currently they have a person that admitted before the royal commission to molesting a child living rent free in a salvo property in Sydney.

 

I would assume, note the word assume, that his rent free living gets approved by someone more senior in the salvo's.

 

Understand, i am not up to date on wether charges have been laid but he admitted before the Royal,commission and they provide him rent free accomadation. Until the likes of Salvo's cease condoning and remedy these type of situations through the actions I have outlined, they bring every good person in that organisation down. It's the same for the other organisations too.

 

These organisations need to remove the grubs and openly apologise and cease support of those grubs. Until they do that, they will never have closure and tarnish the name of organisations that can do a lot of good, as opposed to good and some not no nice stuff.

 

If we close our eyes, it doesn't go away until these organisations become open, transparent and support the victims over misguided loyalties to deviets within their organisation that destroy their organisations reputation. it is nobody on here destroying the reputation f the salvos or the Catholic Church, it is those organisations doing it themselves and it is farked that they do it because there are 80 and 90 year olds tha have donated there lives to those organisations and only ever done good.

 

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just can't understand why, with so many experts here, that this problem wasn't sorted out years ago.

 

You'd think that if the Catholic church had half the morals it preaches none of this shit would have got this far. The reason is got to this is the deecades upon decades of cover ups and denial. The thousands upon thousands of abuse cases and the subsequent shitty action of the church to deny any of it.

 

I take your point about there being many good people involved in various churches doing good things. At what point do you think people should stop supporting organisations that have been infected with such evil?

 

I can't imagine anyone having even a slight understanding of the devastation the Catholic church has caused but turning up to put money on the donation plate anyway .... i have always found that peculiar.

 

But then there's are a lot if catholics who don't really understand the gravity of the crimes or the extent of the impacts.

 

I that's why people get upset.

 

The rapjmg of hundreds of kids seems to be seen as a minor inconvenience, simply to be flicked to the side because there is also some good people in the church?

 

Im sure tnere are some nice guys in The Hells Angels, but they'll probably be better known for shooting people and running drugs (allegedly).

Edited by TryTriB4Forty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My $0.20 worth as someone who went through the Catholic Education system in the Hunter Valley during the 1970's.

 

I was 'lucky' enough to get through relatively unscathed despite being sought by investigators to make a statement in a high profile abuse case. A couple of my close peers weren't so 'lucky' and one class mate suicided shortly after leaving school.

 

Having seen close up the extent of abuse in this region by people we were taught to place on a pedestal, I am firmly of the opinion that despite the intentions of the numerous good and pious people within it, the Catholic Church or at least an element of it is nothing more than a highly sophisticated paedophile ring.

 

As with any organisation the buck stops at the top. In this case George Pell. He needs to man up, face the music and explain himself and the behaviour of his underlings. Anything less is grossly unacceptable and a prolongation of the abuse already suffered by the victims.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I'm old, not well enough, and can't recall" is not good enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

those charged with clerical duties that committed heinous acts, or covered them up, should face the full force of the law - regardless of what organisation, or institution they come from.

 

I agree they tarnish the majority of good elements in the Church. Just like one positive drug test from a pro triathlete raises questions for every other elite performer.

 

I work for the Catholic Church and have priests as good mates. I have met Pell. A more pompous, arrogant human I am yet to meet. My father investigates the very sub-humans that are the subject of the commission; and has put many behind bars.

 

Most days I believe in God - and my faith lay not in the Church - but firmly in the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. A more loving, empathetic, kind human being I am yet to meet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having seen close up the extent of abuse in this region by people we were taught to place on a pedestal,

And therein lies the problem. The poor victims see these men admired and respected by other adults including their own parents that they can't make any sense of what's being done to them. Who are they going to turn to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised some of these priest don't get killed later in life by their victims. If it happened to me I think I'd seek to square the ledger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heard an interview this morning on my local ABC radio with the Bishop of the Diocese I live in ... in my view it completely summed up whats wrong with the church

 

Apparently said Bishop has sent (or will be sending) a letter to all parishioners in his patch.... the issue?? That the way the media is approaching the whole Pell thing is nothing but 'insinuation' and 'speculation' and an outrageous attack on the character of the Cardinal.. He specifically mentioned the song by Minchin, the article in the Sun Herald (I assume this is the Victorian police investigation into allegations against Pell) and a few other things.

 

Typical.

 

Offended by a song, but not offended by senior clergy being implicated in abusing kids and covering it up for decades!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MickBillFrank

 

This is a serious question and I hope you don't get offended by it (I am genuinely interested in your thoughts):

 

How do you draw a line between your work for the church and issues of child abuse?

 

I mean, I find this unusual juxtaposition between many religious (genuinely good, honourable people) and the institutions that they devote so much time to.

 

From the outside, it is hard to fathom how you could turn up to work/donate time/give money/whatever to an institution that has been (and continues to be) embroiled in such controversy regarding its treatment of kids (and subsequent legal games, denials, cover-ups, etc).

 

In your mind is there a distinction between the people doing every day work at the bottom and those that perpetrated evil (who appear to be at the top)?

 

Is it that there is a desire by everyday people to make the church better?

 

Is it just that people don't think its that big a deal?

 

If I found out that there was significant illegal activity in my local sports club, place of work, or whatever, and it involved senior figures over decades (including some very senior people still within the organisation) , I'm not sure I would continue to show up and give my time/money etc.

 

I wouldn't want t play any part in an organisation like that.

 

(and I guess there is that situation of buying an iPhone knowing it is probably made by childhood labour .... things we all have to assess...)

 

But as an example my mum has pretty much given up as a Catholic, I think for two reason. First, I don't thingk she can stand the hypocrisy of a priests sermon about doing good in the world when the most senior figures have been doing the opposite and two, she can no longer bring herself to financially contribute to an organisation that seems to have endless money to legal defence of abusive priests... (family friends had kids who were being groomed by priests, but luckily spoke out before anything serious happened, so I guess its pretty close to home for mum)

 

How do you reconcile your involvement with the church?

 

Do you not see your work/donating time/whatever as being supportive of an organisation that has shown itself to be inherently evil? Or can you divide a line between people giving money on the donation plate to the Catholic Church, and the catholic church using money to defend abusers like Ridsdale?

 

Dead set serious question.

 

Many people have walked away from the church, what makes those that haven't still stick around ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

those charged with clerical duties that committed heinous acts, or covered them up, should face the full force of the law - regardless of what organisation, or institution they come from.

 

I agree they tarnish the majority of good elements in the Church. Just like one positive drug test from a pro triathlete raises questions for every other elite performer.

 

I work for the Catholic Church and have priests as good mates. I have met Pell. A more pompous, arrogant human I am yet to meet. My father investigates the very sub-humans that are the subject of the commission; and has put many behind bars.

 

Most days I believe in God - and my faith lay not in the Church - but firmly in the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. A more loving, empathetic, kind human being I am yet to meet.

 

 

As I am sure you are aware. Anyone who believes this to be an inquisition – for want of a better term – into the faith of Catholics or the doctrine of the Catholic Church is completely missing the point.

 

It is about how one institution has allowed duplicitous, opportunistic, evil people to hide within in its ranks and carry out unspeakable crimes against the innocent. It is about how those in a position of authority aware of these acts not only covered up these crimes, in many cases continued to enable the perpetrators. This is what Pell as a Senior Cleric needs to answer for.

 

 

Sunshine is bleach. The dirty secrets need to come out. I am confident the Jesus of Nazareth that I was taught about would rather see the whole ‘organisation’ destroyed than see a single child harmed.

 

And therein lies the problem. The poor victims see these men admired and respected by other adults including their own parents that they can't make any sense of what's being done to them. Who are they going to turn to?

 

Exactly. As it was put to me by a survivor of a Priest of whom I considered a confidant and mentor as I tried to reconcile his crimes with the person I knew and trusted. “Even those who weren’t physically abused are his victims, insofar as they were drawn into and misled by his charade”.

 

When the allegations first came to light about this Priest I remember being outspoken in his defence. There was absolutely no way possible in my mind he could’ve been guilty of these things.

 

It took a series of “Remember when we were in Yr 9 and ………” & “Remember when we went to the Farm and …….” For the penny to drop with me. It had happened around me in close quarters and I really took some convincing that it had happened. It is little wonder that those not exposed to it still refuse to believe it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MickBillFrank

 

This is a serious question and I hope you don't get offended by it (I am genuinely interested in your thoughts):

 

How do you draw a line between your work for the church and issues of child abuse?

 

I mean, I find this unusual juxtaposition between many religious (genuinely good, honourable people) and the institutions that they devote so much time to.

 

From the outside, it is hard to fathom how you could turn up to work/donate time/give money/whatever to an institution that has been (and continues to be) embroiled in such controversy regarding its treatment of kids (and subsequent legal games, denials, cover-ups, etc).

 

In your mind is there a distinction between the people doing every day work at the bottom and those that perpetrated evil (who appear to be at the top)?

 

Is it that there is a desire by everyday people to make the church better?

 

Is it just that people don't think its that big a deal?

 

If I found out that there was significant illegal activity in my local sports club, place of work, or whatever, and it involved senior figures over decades (including some very senior people still within the organisation) , I'm not sure I would continue to show up and give my time/money etc.

 

I wouldn't want t play any part in an organisation like that.

 

(and I guess there is that situation of buying an iPhone knowing it is probably made by childhood labour .... things we all have to assess...)

 

But as an example my mum has pretty much given up as a Catholic, I think for two reason. First, I don't thingk she can stand the hypocrisy of a priests sermon about doing good in the world when the most senior figures have been doing the opposite and two, she can no longer bring herself to financially contribute to an organisation that seems to have endless money to legal defence of abusive priests... (family friends had kids who were being groomed by priests, but luckily spoke out before anything serious happened, so I guess its pretty close to home for mum)

 

How do you reconcile your involvement with the church?

 

Do you not see your work/donating time/whatever as being supportive of an organisation that has shown itself to be inherently evil? Or can you divide a line between people giving money on the donation plate to the Catholic Church, and the catholic church using money to defend abusers like Ridsdale?

 

Dead set serious question.

 

Many people have walked away from the church, what makes those that haven't still stick around ?

I get your tone and see how you are drawing many issues together.

 

I work in education. School and University. I work with young people mostly. There are 1000s outside in the university quadrangle right now experiencing orientation day to their various courses. All excited and ready to start a journey into teaching, nursing, law etc.

 

The Church is an institution. That institution has many agencies including education. I believe in Catholic education and see it as a vocation. That's what gets me up and to work each day.

 

In Australia we have a thriving Catholic education system. Schools can't cope with the enrollment demand - while on the other hand we have a declining Church. In Australia less than 10% of Catholics attend Mass on Sundays. Much of the decline has been because of increasing secularisation, and loss of trust and respect, because of the abuse scandal. People see the difference between Catholic education and the magisterium or Catholic hierarchy because they still keep wanting to send their kids to Catholic schools and universities in droves. The Church model as we know it is in its death throes. The average age of a priest in Australia is 67. There simply won't be any clergy around in 15 to 20 years.

 

What I do supports Catholic education, and, more importantly, participates in the formation of young people. The Church has found itself imploding - most that I talk to say it will never recover from this abuse scandal.

 

The schools and the Universities, and all the thousands of people with good intentions and integrity working in agencies such as education, vinnies, mission work and health care do it for the people they work with and to make a small difference. Those playing dress ups and saying magic words in Rome are largely irrelevant and will reap what they have sown.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

those charged with clerical duties that committed heinous acts, or covered them up, should face the full force of the law - regardless of what organisation, or institution they come from.

 

.......................................

 

Most days I believe in God - and my faith lay not in the Church - but firmly in the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. A more loving, empathetic, kind human being I am yet to meet.

 

This exactly

 

I'm surprised some of these priest don't get killed later in life by their victims. If it happened to me I think I'd seek to square the ledger.

 

If it happened to my kids I KNOW I'd square the ledger, no matter what teaching I believe in.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I do supports Catholic education, and, more importantly, participates in the formation of young people. The Church has found itself imploding - most that I talk to say it will never recover from this abuse scandal.

 

The schools and the Universities, and all the thousands of people with good intentions and integrity working in agencies such as education, vinnies, mission work and health care do it for the people they work with and to make a small difference. Those playing dress ups and saying magic words in Rome are largely irrelevant and will reap what they have sown.

 

As with most things relating to religion, I often wonder why it's necessary to do decent and good work in the name of the church. Why not just do your good work in education outside the church system?

 

I know plenty of atheists with far greater morals than some religious people I've met.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As with most things relating to religion, I often wonder why it's necessary to do decent and good work in the name of the church. Why not just do your good work in education outside the church system?

 

I know plenty of atheists with far greater morals than some religious people I've met.

Being Catholic for many people is tribal. There are 1.7 billion Catholics worldwide. The number is ever increasing despite the cynicism most harbour for the hierarchy

 

A study was done in the US with two separate samples of 25,000 young adults male and female. One group was church going christian and the other group atheist. They were asked the same questions about moral behaviour (pre marital sex, porn, etc etc). Its conclusions were virtually identical - which meant the moral/immoral behaviour of young Americans had nothing to do with their church going patterns or belief systems.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A study was done in the US with two separate samples of 25,000 young adults male and female. One group was church going christian and the other group atheist. They were asked the same questions about moral behaviour (pre marital sex, porn, etc etc). Its conclusions were virtually identical - which meant the moral/immoral behaviour of young Americans had nothing to do with their church going patterns or belief systems.

 

Which seems to support my point.

 

Why is it necessary to do 'anything' in the name of God when it could just as affectively be done outside of the church? It also bothers me when people have 'Women for human rights' or 'Gays for Whales' or 'Men against cancer'. Why can't people be inclusionary and just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do - without need be be under a banner of some sort.

 

I get the tribal thing, I just don't 'get' it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are 1.7 billion Catholics worldwide. The number is ever increasing despite the cynicism most harbour for the hierarchy

And without wanting to be pedantic about what's essentially academic, you said the church is declining in your previous post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm surprised some of these priest don't get killed later in life by their victims. If it happened to me I think I'd seek to square the ledger.

Ray Donovan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And without wanting to be pedantic about what's essentially academic, you said the church is declining in your previous post.

the Church model as we know it is declining. If you want to measure bums on seats on sundays....not people being baptised Catholics each year. That figure is increasing even though the churches are half empty on the weekend

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Which seems to support my point.

 

Why is it necessary to do 'anything' in the name of God when it could just as affectively be done outside of the church? It also bothers me when people have 'Women for human rights' or 'Gays for Whales' or 'Men against cancer'. Why can't people be inclusionary and just do the right thing because it's the right thing to do - without need be be under a banner of some sort.

 

I get the tribal thing, I just don't 'get' it.

Catholics started education in this country - Catholics started hospitals and health care in this country. Catholics were the first to train school teachers and nurses in this country. That tradition continues today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the 'why do it in the name of the church?' I agree with Tribube.

 

I see education as a noble 'calling' if you will. My wife works in the Catholic education system. But can't you be dedicated to education, showing young people the wonders of the world, letting them grow and flourish without it being about Catholicism?

 

(as an aside, it is teaching in the Catholic system that has turned my wife against the church. She sees so much hypocrisy in the system that she comes home seething - excellent teachers who aren't given jobs because they are gay, or unmarried, or whatever..... but she knows of two school principals who have had affairs that are conveniently 'looked after' with posts in nice places... but I digress..)

 

 

On the morals thing. I fundamentally believe that (despite what I was taught when I went through the catholic school system) the church and the bible have NOTHING to do with morals whatsoever. In fact, I would argue that the more right wing religious folk HOLD BACK the world from adopting more moral values.

 

The church has to be DRAGGED kicking and screaming into accepting equality, womens rights, etc. It was the church that tried to prevent the end of slavery, it was the church that tried to prevent inter-racial marriage in the US, it was the church that argued against women voting (as it would destroy family).

 

Its now the most religious arguing against gay marriage (The Australian Christian Lobby, for example, spends more effort on fighting against gay marriage than all other causes put together).

 

And the most religious arguing that we should 'stop the boats'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As with most things relating to religion, I often wonder why it's necessary to do decent and good work in the name of the church. Why not just do your good work in education outside the church system?

 

I know plenty of atheists with far greater morals than some religious people I've met.

In my work I come across the Catholic Education Office a lot. On this issue I can't see a lot of difference between catholic education and the diocese. Same. Same. Maybe with the massive exoansion and professionalism in recent years things are different - with the increased number of lay professions I hope so, but in my view there are too many brothers - some of whom I've put in jail but are still members of the order and will return upon their release ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Catholics where the first to take Aboriginal kids from their homes as well.

 

And the first the make indigenous Fijians destroy any reference to their own 'false idols'

Government assimilation policy made it mandatory in the late 19th century. The christian denominations set up missions. The police on behalf of the government took the children away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having been through the catholic education system myself, and having a wife that teaches in the catholic system, my perception is that the success of catholic schooling has nothing to do with parents wanting a catholic upbringing.

 

In many areas the public schools are seen as containing the riff-raff, the big private schools are plainly only available to those earning mega-bucks, but the fee-paying catholic schools are affordable, providing average wage earning parents with the ability to get their kids into a school that avoids the great unwashed at a reasonable cost.

 

Most of my nephews and nieces went through catholic system for this reason - and certainly not because their parents wanted a particularly catholic education.

 

The whole 'number of catholics thing' is related to this. many people get their kids baptised for no other reason other than to give them an option to get the kids into catholic school when the time comes. I can personally name 30 kids (including many of my own family) for which this is exactly the situation.

 

Its the same for many, many teachers in the catholic system. I know many of them 'pretend' to be catholic, going so far as attending church just to 'be seen' or get a priests reference for some upcoming job. Particularly amongst the younger staff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the 'why do it in the name of the church?' I agree with Tribube.

 

I see education as a noble 'calling' if you will. My wife works in the Catholic education system. But can't you be dedicated to education, showing young people the wonders of the world, letting them grow and flourish without it being about Catholicism?

 

(as an aside, it is teaching in the Catholic system that has turned my wife against the church. She sees so much hypocrisy in the system that she comes home seething - excellent teachers who aren't given jobs because they are gay, or unmarried, or whatever..... but she knows of two school principals who have had affairs that are conveniently 'looked after' with posts in nice places... but I digress..)

 

 

On the morals thing. I fundamentally believe that (despite what I was taught when I went through the catholic school system) the church and the bible have NOTHING to do with morals whatsoever. In fact, I would argue that the more right wing religious folk HOLD BACK the world from adopting more moral values.

 

The church has to be DRAGGED kicking and screaming into accepting equality, womens rights, etc. It was the church that tried to prevent the end of slavery, it was the church that tried to prevent inter-racial marriage in the US, it was the church that argued against women voting (as it would destroy family).

 

Its now the most religious arguing against gay marriage (The Australian Christian Lobby, for example, spends more effort on fighting against gay marriage than all other causes put together).

 

And the most religious arguing that we should 'stop the boats'.

why does your wife continue to work in a catholic school then? i have worked with people in a catholic school who are openly atheist and pretend to pray with the students...i might be mistaken but that is also called hypocrisy.

 

of course you can be in a government education system school and do a wonderful job. its not a binary argument. its about worldview and identity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My daughter was baptised so she could teach in the Catholic system. She did it at the same time as her aunt, who'd been a teacher for 25 years and wanted permanancy at a Catholic School.

 

Both my kids went to Catholic Primary School. I was very happy with the school, when I looked at the local option of thousand plus state schools. When we moved to Samford this changed, and my boy went there, but I agree with MBF, in that the Catholic Education System is worthwhile, and needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My $0.20 worth as someone who went through the Catholic Education system in the Hunter Valley during the 1970's.

 

I was 'lucky' enough to get through relatively unscathed despite being sought by investigators to make a statement in a high profile abuse case. A couple of my close peers weren't so 'lucky' and one class mate suicided shortly after leaving school.

 

Having seen close up the extent of abuse in this region by people we were taught to place on a pedestal, I am firmly of the opinion that despite the intentions of the numerous good and pious people within it, the Catholic Church or at least an element of it is nothing more than a highly sophisticated paedophile ring.

 

As with any organisation the buck stops at the top. In this case George Pell. He needs to man up, face the music and explain himself and the behaviour of his underlings. Anything less is grossly unacceptable and a prolongation of the abuse already suffered by the victims.

 

Great post

 

those charged with clerical duties that committed heinous acts, or covered them up, should face the full force of the law - regardless of what organisation, or institution they come from.

 

I agree they tarnish the majority of good elements in the Church. Just like one positive drug test from a pro triathlete raises questions for every other elite performer.

 

I work for the Catholic Church and have priests as good mates. I have met Pell. A more pompous, arrogant human I am yet to meet. My father investigates the very sub-humans that are the subject of the commission; and has put many behind bars.

 

Most days I believe in God - and my faith lay not in the Church - but firmly in the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. A more loving, empathetic, kind human being I am yet to meet.

 

Another Great Post

 

I'm surprised some of these priest don't get killed later in life by their victims. If it happened to me I think I'd seek to square the ledger.

 

I often wonder what I would do if I had been in the same situation. Thank God I was not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My wife has always been quite religious. A religious school was always a good fit for her. She has a masters in theology as well.

 

For her I think that teaching in the catholic system has made her LESS religious. she sees all the hypocrisy (from the school/leadership as well as from the teachers). I think she feels that its all fake (or a significant proportion of it is all fake...). Not sure if that makes sense... teachers pretending to be catholic to get a job, students who are baptised just to get into school, senior management who are meant to be good catholics but deny gay people jobs (whilst overlooking the extra marital affairs of other senior staff) etc.

 

I agree that many of the teachers are hypocritical ... but I guess they see it as no different to what I do. My job is made easier by attending functions and events (Business Chambers, Conferences, other events that allow professional networking) ... They see that part of their 'networking' involves having to pretend to be catholic, going to the odd church services and pretending to pray.

 

I know a couple of teachers who have left - one who is gay and got sick of having to pretend he was something he wasn't.

 

I'm not trying to say that the catholic school system is un-needed or bad, but its just the reality of how things happen (ie. not all those attending a catholic school do so because they particularly want a catholic upbringing for their kids, and not al the teachers believe any of it).

 

I went to a catholic school (primary and secondary) and I wouldn't change my schooling. As it turned out I ended up being a complete atheist and don't believe any of it (no offence if you do). But the education in the catholic system gave me a very good grounding and an ability to be a critical thinker, I went on to gain significant other qualifications (I now have more than 30 letters after my name by way of university qualifications). I developeda love for learning and I think perhaps that started at school.

 

So I'm not saying Catholic education is bad, I'm saying if we are counting the number of baptisms and the school enrolments as some evidence of people becoming more catholic I think its misconstruing what's actually happening.

Edited by TryTriB4Forty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My daughter was baptised so she could teach in the Catholic system. She did it at the same time as her aunt, who'd been a teacher for 25 years and wanted permanancy at a Catholic School.

 

Both my kids went to Catholic Primary School. I was very happy with the school, when I looked at the local option of thousand plus state schools. When we moved to Samford this changed, and my boy went there, but I agree with MBF, in that the Catholic Education System is worthwhile, and needed.

very common now mate. many of my students obtain their religious education qualification to make themselves more employable.

 

plenty of people have their kids baptised to qualify for a catholic school spot. which reinforces the point that the catholic school by and large has a good reputation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My wife has always been quite religious. A religious school was always a good fit for her. She has a masters in theology as well.

 

For her I think that teaching in the catholic system has made her LESS religious. she sees all the hypocrisy (from the school/leadership as well as from the teachers). I think she feels that its all fake (or a significant proportion of it is all fake...). Not sure if that makes sense...

 

I agree that many of the teachers are hypocritical ... but I guess they see it as no different to what I do. My job is made easier by attending functions and events (Business Chambers, Conferences, other events that allow professional networking) ... They see that part of their 'networking' involves having to pretend to be catholic, going to the odd church services and pretending to pray.

 

I know a couple of teachers who have left - one who is gay and got sick of having to pretend he was something he wasn't.

 

I'm not trying to say that the catholic school system is un-needed or bad, but its just the reality of how things happen (ie. not all those attending a catholic school do so because they particularly want a catholic upbringing for their kids, and not al the teachers believe any of it).

 

I went to a catholic school (primary and secondary) and I wouldn't change my schooling. As it turned out I ended up being a complete atheist and don't believe any of it (no offence if you do). But the education in the catholic system gave me a very good grounding and an ability to be a critical thinker, I went on to gain significant other qualifications (I now have more than 30 letters after my name by way of university qualifications). I developeda love for learning and I think perhaps that started at school.

 

So I'm not saying Catholic education is bad, I'm saying if we are counting the number of baptisms and the school enrolments as some evidence of people becoming more catholic I think its misconstruing what's actually happening.

agree with what you say re. motivation to attend a catholic school or be baptised. that is a reality for sure.

 

i empathise with your wife. i have had those experiences that you outlined. faith is a spectrum just like sexuality. not black or white good or evil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting that we didn't have our kids baptised to go to a catholic school. Whilst I've heard a lot of people mention it, it wasn't needed at St Andrew's. We were asked our religious beliefs, and we were honest and told them I had been christianed Uniting but didn't attend, my wife doesn't believe, and the kids weren't baptised. They still got in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it depends on how over-subscribed the schools are Ex.

 

If you lived in an area where there was a huge demand on schools, having a baptism certificate might put you ahead of those that don't ?? Not sure, but I know a lot of people who have had it done just as an insurance policy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

having a baptism certificate might put you ahead of those that don't ?? Not sure, but I know a lot of people who have had it done just as an insurance policy.

 

This in itself is a farce - having a 'faux' religion to get a preferred school spot. Makes a mockery of the entire system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This in itself is a farce - having a 'faux' religion to get a preferred school spot. Makes a mockery of the entire system.

I know of 2 people that bought a property, lived in it for a couple weeks to make it their official address then rented it out, just so they could go to West End High.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×