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New Rules for NSW cyclists

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According to another article, No helmet, ran a red light, ignored police direction, touched on the shoulder.

 

The guy's probably an idiot but sadly he will now be represented as typical of all cyclists. I hope he gets the book thrown at him and the bike lobby condemn his behaviour. I'm not holding my breath for the latter.

Edited by trinube

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I was just pointing out that 25,000 photos on CA licenses would not deal with something that affects something approaching a million people minus those under 18. In any case, a CA license would not be recognised by authorities, as it is not a state issued photo ID.

 

1,000,000

minus Under 18's

minus those with drivers licences already

minus those with official photo ID already

 

leaves you with about 10 people.

 

 

10 people are affected.

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..... and the bike lobby condemn his behaviour. I'm not holding my breath for the latter.

Me neither.

Here's one example > https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/general/media/3847/

 

BicycleNetworks run some very good events but some of their comments regarding the new laws are pretty childish. eg:should it be mandatory to carry a spare tube, credit card, phone or water bottle?

 

I think I'll be taking their view point of the "cycle crash police push" with a large grain of salt.

 

They should listen to Alex or MM who can give an intelligent opinion & reason.

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I'm curious as to people who say they 'don't or won't take their wallet on rides' type of comments whether they take out their credit card or cash from their wallet before they head off for a ride, be that up to shops for milk & bread or out on 200km adventure ride.

 

I would assume you then replace your credit card and remaining cash back to the wallet on return.

 

Why would it be any different with your licence?

 

Maybe it's easy for me because I am in the habit of taking out my licence, credit card & cash every time I head out on the bike. I put them into a small zip lock bag with a rubber band around them to keep it all snug.

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Maybe it's easy for me because I am in the habit of taking out my licence, credit card & cash every time I head out on the bike. I put them into a small zip lock bag with a rubber band around them to keep it all snug.

 

I keep a house key, $20 and a bandage in a zip lock back in one of those containers that goes in a bidon holder. If a copy of my license was fine that would go in there as well and never be thought of again.

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Maybe it's easy for me because I am in the habit of taking out my licence, credit card & cash every time I head out on the bike. I put them into a small zip lock bag with a rubber band around them to keep it all snug.

I do the same for every ride 10k-200k. Never left home without my license and never forgot to put it back in my wallet.

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And remember to carry that state recognised photo ID during the cycle leg of multisport and any bike races events in NSW as well.

Edited by trifun

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And remember to carry that state recognised photo ID during the cycle leg of multisport and any bike races events in NSW as well.

 

Yeah and the blokes going around in the Bathurst 1000 carry their drivers and CAMS licence in case they get stopped.

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Yeah and the blokes going around in the Bathurst 1000 carry their drivers and CAMS licence in case they get stopped.

 

Closed road and all so I don't think they're in much need. Cycle races/triathlons on open roads however (where most rules stipulate you must abide by the road rules).

Edited by trinube

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They should listen to Alex or MM who can give an intelligent opinion & reason.

 

Hope you are not offended Trev. I don't have copyright on reason, you can deliver as much of it as you want to support your point of view or contest mine.

 

As for the incident cottoneyes posted... The last time I checked the police are there to protect the public, what kind of danger was that cyclist posing to the public do you think? Somewhere between not much and none at all I think.

 

Wether the officer "touched" his shoulder or pushed him makes little difference, the officer caused a traffic accident. Now imagine it was a highway patrol car that forced a motorist to crash because the driver wasn't wearing a seat belt and didn't pull over as instructed.

 

Just swap the cyclist with a car then imagine your reaction. Is it the same or different?

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I just want to ride to the corner store without the possibility of a Police officer pulling me over(or knocking me off my bike, as I am hearing impaired there is a chance I will not hear sirens) so they can site my ID.

 

I don't carry my drivers license with me on any rides, ever, I have never, ever needed it and cannot think of any reason why I ever would or should need it.

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According to eyewitnesses who themselves were stopped at the red on the cross street, the rider was crossing on the green, the police didn't have any siren, and rode up next to the cyclist from behind him without the cyclist being aware of his presence, and the policeman pushed him hard causing him to come a cropper.

 

Sounds like assault to me.

 

The rider did not have a helmet. That does not give any police officer the right to cause harm to a cyclist FFS.

 

Two eyewitness reports, have a read and a listen:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-officer-pushed-cyclist-off-his-bike-in-sydneys-cbd-witnesses-say-20160113-gm5d3m.html

 

 

 

Mr De Giorgio, who had just finished an early morning training ride, had cycled north along College Street and was stopped at a red light at the intersection with William Street as he waited to turn left when the crash occurred.

 

He estimated he was three or four metres from the rider when the crash occurred.

He said the cyclist was travelling about 15km/h when he rode through the intersection of College and William streets on a green light.

"I don't know what led up to that situation. The only thing that was visually evident was that he wasn't wearing a helmet," Mr De Giorgio said.

"The guy wasn't running a red light or anything [at the crash scene]. He was just riding along.

"The motorcyclist came up alongside him. There wasn't a siren that I heard, and it's not like he rode alongside him and asked him to pull over. It was literally like he came up from behind, then alongside and just pushed him over."

He said the motorcyclist's lights were flashing, but he did not hear a siren.

Mr Di Giorgio said the male cyclist fell onto the road, and suffered abrasions to his leg.

"He was lying in prone position, and kind of screaming and yelling in pain," Mr Di Giorgio said.

"The guy was saying 'You pushed me! What the hell? What the f---? You pushed me! ... He was angry and appeared to be in pain.

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As for the incident cottoneyes posted... The last time I checked the police are there to protect the public, what kind of danger was that cyclist posing to the public do you think? Somewhere between not much and none at all I think.

 

He was breaking the law by not wearing a helmet and running a red light. He then broke it again by not stopping when instructed. People seem to think running reds is trivial and could never lead to a danger to anybody - they're wrong.

 

I have zero sympathy for the guy based on what I've seen/read so far. In fact I'm angered by it because it makes me, as a cyclist, look bad.

 

Edit to say this was written before the SMH story. I'll reserve judgement but it appears that he has been charged with running a stop signal.

Edited by trinube

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1,000,000

minus Under 18's

minus those with drivers licences already

minus those with official photo ID already

 

leaves you with about 10 people.

 

 

10 people are affected.

 

Everyone who rides a bicycle is affected.

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He was breaking the law by not wearing a helmet and running a red light. He then broke it again by not stopping when instructed. People seem to think running reds is trivial and could never lead to a danger to anybody - they're wrong.

 

I have zero sympathy for the guy based on what I've seen/read so far. In fact I'm angered by it because it makes me, as a cyclist, look bad.

 

Edit to say this was written before the SMH story. I'll reserve judgement but it appears that he has been charged with running a stop signal.

 

I'd say from the number of eyewitness accounts that he most likely wasn't.

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Hope you are not offended Trev. I don't have copyright on reason, you can deliver as much of it as you want to support your point of view or contest mine.

 

As for the incident cottoneyes posted... The last time I checked the police are there to protect the public, what kind of danger was that cyclist posing to the public do you think? Somewhere between not much and none at all I think.

 

Wether the officer "touched" his shoulder or pushed him makes little difference, the officer caused a traffic accident. Now imagine it was a highway patrol car that forced a motorist to crash because the driver wasn't wearing a seat belt and didn't pull over as instructed.

 

Just swap the cyclist with a car then imagine your reaction. Is it the same or different?

Nah, not offended at all.

 

Yeah the 'touched or pushed' is open to interpretation of course and can be very hard to gauge.

 

There will have been plenty of times other vehicles have committed similar offenses and not followed police direction & resulted in crashes during a pursuit.

 

It doesn't change my opinion what type of vehicle the guys was controlling, he ran a red light and failed to stop when directed, and it seems a short and slow :P pursuit followed.

 

I could do exactly the same thing on my motorcycle and not pose a danger to the public so would that make it ok?

Of course not, as I have to follow the road rules whether I like them or not.

If the guy ran a red light then he was a dangers to others, pedestrians could easily have been crossing at the time or cross traffic.

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I'd say from the number of eyewitness accounts that he most likely wasn't.

Your witnesses were at the intersection of the crash. That isn't the intersection the police said he went through the red light.

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Nah, not offended at all.

 

Yeah the 'touched or pushed' is open to interpretation of course and can be very hard to gauge.

 

There will have been plenty of times other vehicles have committed similar offenses and not followed police direction & resulted in crashes during a pursuit.

 

It doesn't change my opinion what type of vehicle the guys was controlling, he ran a red light and failed to stop when directed, and it seems a short and slow :P pursuit followed.

 

I could do exactly the same thing on my motorcycle and not pose a danger to the public so would that make it ok?

Of course not, as I have to follow the road rules whether I like them or not.

If the guy ran a red light then he was a dangers to others, pedestrians could easily have been crossing at the time or cross traffic.

 

Eyewitnesses said he was riding on the green.

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I think it would be a great idea to introduce a law that we all have to carry ID on us all the time. This way if anyone is caught jaywalking they can be ID'd and fined on the spot without the Police having to waste any time. Plus it would raise revenue and hopefully act as a deterrent to jaywalking thereby saving lives. And anyone who complains well they're just a whinger and why worry if you're not doing anything wrong anyway. Can anyone think of a reason this would be a bad idea?

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Eyewitnesses said he was riding on the green.

Eyewitnesses at the crash. Not where the offence is alleged to have taken place.

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According to eyewitnesses who themselves were stopped at the red on the cross street, the rider was crossing on the green, the police didn't have any siren, and rode up next to the cyclist from behind him without the cyclist being aware of his presence, and the policeman pushed him hard causing him to come a cropper.

 

 

 

 

Given the witness statements are only the tailed end of what occurred it's hard to get a full picture.

The Police report says the guy ran a red light at the corner of Yurong & William streets. He did not follow direction to stop and continued on. The crash occurred at the corner of William & College streets. That one block (200m) away so these witnesses did not see him run the red and are referring to William & College Street intersection.

 

 

 

edit:

The siren and flashing lights etc. on the Police bike could well have occurred 200m and not right at the instance of the crash. The localised witnesses in the city are probably oblivious to any siren 200m away.

 

This is were media and particularly the bicycle networks etc. will overlook the initial steps and can swing the story in a different direction.

Edited by TrevS

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The issue around the siren should be cleared up if the police bike has sound with its video. Personally I don't think the cop should have touched the guy, but then another part of me says the d@#%head probably deserved it. Running a red light and not wearing a helmet in Sydney peak hour traffic. FFS.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

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I'd be very surprised if the police pursuit rules would permit the police to crash into an offenders car, especially in a built up area.

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He was breaking the law by not wearing a helmet and running a red light. He then broke it again by not stopping when instructed. People seem to think running reds is trivial and could never lead to a danger to anybody - they're wrong.

 

I have zero sympathy for the guy based on what I've seen/read so far. In fact I'm angered by it because it makes me, as a cyclist, look bad.

 

Edit to say this was written before the SMH story. I'll reserve judgement but it appears that he has been charged with running a stop signal.

Must be a sydney thing, super stupid, super bogans who want the right to assault cyclists and make it the cyclists fault

Edited by BarryBevan

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JUts stick an RFID chip in everyone and be done with it, log data about everything you do, make fines automatic linked to your bank account

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I'm curious as to people who say they 'don't or won't take their wallet on rides' type of comments whether they take out their credit card or cash from their wallet before they head off for a ride, be that up to shops for milk & bread or out on 200km adventure ride.

 

I would assume you then replace your credit card and remaining cash back to the wallet on return.

 

Why would it be any different with your licence?

 

Maybe it's easy for me because I am in the habit of taking out my licence, credit card & cash every time I head out on the bike. I put them into a small zip lock bag with a rubber band around them to keep it all snug.

I'm not against carrying ID, in fact I carry my licence when driving here when there is no legal requirement to do so. In Oz I used to ride with my wallet ( not sure why), I think it was easier before everyone carried phones as there was only one bulky item to shove in your jersey.

 

I'm very much in favour of carrying ID, and here I carry my BC licence and if I'm on a real long ride, might take a debit card. Usually though I take some notes, phone, BC licence and that's about it, all in a little bag.

 

If I took my DL as ID here in the UK on a ride and forgot to put it back in my wallet, it's no big deal, maybe annoying but I wouldn't be breaking the law if I then drove ( as I would in Oz).

 

The issue I'm having with this proposal is it looks to me like the ID requirement is being used as a mechanism to enforce fines and the old ' for your own safety' line was trotted out later. We should not need to be told that carrying ID is a good idea.

 

In this day and age when you can board a plane using your phone, surely there's something that can capture an image of your DL clear enough for plod, or at least list some suitable alternatives ( which is why I brought up the BC licence here) ?

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So let me get this straight: if i walk to my local shops and don't wait for the pedestrian crossing signals (which i often do because i can't be bothered waiting for 90 seconds after pushing the beg button when there are no cars) it would be quite appropriate if i was crash-tackled by a police officer? Because after all, i had broken the law and deserved it?

And if that was your elderly mother? (Who might be a bit deaf and miss the cop yelling Stop or I'll shoot) Or if it was your 14 year old son who is tall and could be mistaken for 18 from a distance?

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So let me get this straight: if i walk to my local shops and don't wait for the pedestrian crossing signals (which i often do because i can't be bothered waiting for 90 seconds after pushing the beg button when there are no cars) it would be quite appropriate if i was crash-tackled by a police officer? Because after all, i had broken the law and deserved it?

And if that was your elderly mother? (Who might be a bit deaf and miss the cop yelling Stop or I'll shoot) Or if it was your 14 year old son who is tall and could be mistaken for 18 from a distance?

 

Yep. And next time you break the law in your car, you can be expected to be rammed up the butt by a police car and forced off the road.

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If Police were to do the equivalent to a motorist as was done to that cyclist I would be very surprised by the heavy handedness.

 

If it were a stolen car recently used in a crime or a hit an run and the pursuit has gone on for some time and it was a safe location to intervene and disable the car and the operation commander approved it then that would be acceptable.

 

As it stands, it appears the Officer didn't really consider that cyclist a genuine road user like a car or motorcycle... funny that.

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I'm curious as to people who say they 'don't or won't take their wallet on rides' type of comments whether they take out their credit card or cash from their wallet before they head off for a ride, be that up to shops for milk & bread or out on 200km adventure ride.

 

I would assume you then replace your credit card and remaining cash back to the wallet on return.

 

Why would it be any different with your licence?

 

For me I have never found the need to use a credit card or my license on any ride, ever. At most I will take a note or some change for coffee and that is it. I would do the same on a trip to the corner store or a 100k training ride.

 

I only get my credit card and license out to use them and put them straight back specifically so I don't loose them. I am probably more forgetful and un-organised than average though.

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For me I have never found the need to use a credit card or my license on any ride, ever. At most I will take a note or some change for coffee and that is it. I would do the same on a trip to the corner store or a 100k training ride.

 

I only get my credit card and license out to use them and put them straight back specifically so I don't loose them. I am probably more forgetful and un-organised than average though.

I'm pretty much the same. Most of my riding these days is commuting, so I do have it, but if I head out purely to ride, I have fluid, food, coins & a phone. If the image on the phone is acceptable, then I suppose that would cover it.

If a copy is OK, then it's not going to be onerous, but I don't think the reasoning behind making it mandatory is correct.

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There are three independent witnesses that say the rider was shoved off his bike by the Policeman, and the Police official report says he didn't do it. Whether or not he had previous gone through a red light isn't really relevant. You do not push a rider off their bike and cause unnecessary harm.

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I do the same for every ride 10k-200k. Never left home without my license and never forgot to put it back in my wallet.

My rides midweek start at 4.20 am. I'm not sure I'm organised enough to remember to grab my license at this hour or remember to replace it if I did before heading to work.

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it will end up being a pseudo-cycling licence in my view.

 

In NSW you can't get a second copy of your drivers licence (you have to sign to say its been lost/destroyed) and you are not allowed a photo-ID card (if you hold a drivers licence then you are not allowed a photo ID card as well). I think the purpose of these rules is to prevent kids getting multiple photo ID cards and giving one to a mate/younger brother to get into a pub ...

 

Anyway, people will complain about the potential for lost and forgotten cards when you need to take one cycling so they will issue a 'duplicate cycling card'. I would see this is much like the second numberplates you can get for your bike rack on your car....

 

I can see people having a duplicate license/ID which will essentially be a cycling licence and links fines and points back to your drivers licence....

 

Just speculation but I can see it happening.... once you have to carry your licence its not much of a step to go "oh, we are going to make it easier for cyclists by allowing them to have a duplicate cycling ID" ....

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Do you think you could hole punch your licence and cable tie it to your top tube so it doesn't create drag when fully aero ?

 

Maybe pop rivet it on. Would the carbon break ? Or would we need a steel frame for that.

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Isn't the CDB covered in CCTV cameras, you would think there would be some footage somewhere... GoPro, Dashcams, something...

 

Edit: Second from the left in the second row, isn't that where the cyclist hit the deck?

Yep.

Although that picture looks down William to the set of lights he is said to have run the red (further back down the road behind the bus).

The crash is supposed to have occurred underneath the camera (give or take). Odds are there are camera's that would probably cover that area though.

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My rides midweek start at 4.20 am. I'm not sure I'm organised enough to remember to grab my license at this hour or remember to replace it if I did before heading to work.

I wish I could sleep in till 4.20 ?

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In Queensland you can renew your driver's licence online, they send you a new one in the mail, and you don't need to surrender the old one. I take the expired one with me riding as it's fine to use given it has all my details and contains a photo. Authorities consider this to be an acceptable form of ID provided all the details on the expired licence (except the expiry date) remain correct.

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If I can quote my license number and don't have a problem doing so couldn't they just look me up on the system this should have a photo for them to reference me against.

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In Queensland you can renew your driver's licence online, they send you a new one in the mail, and you don't need to surrender the old one. I take the expired one with me riding as it's fine to use given it has all my details and contains a photo. Authorities consider this to be an acceptable form of ID provided all the details on the expired licence (except the expiry date) remain correct.

 

If you show this expired one to a police officer you can expect to have it confiscated (sliced and diced) on the spot. Happened to my kid last month in Bris.

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What ever the solution to the ID carry problem it is still a totally unjustified erosion of civil liberties.

 

Once this is in place the only mode of transport available to a person were they cannot be stopped by police or transit officers "at random" to confirm ID or a ticket, is when they are on foot. The fact that the NSW government is making ID compulsory for cyclists is an embarrassing and shameful act for any free democratic country.

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If you show this expired one to a police officer you can expect to have it confiscated (sliced and diced) on the spot. Happened to my kid last month in Bris.

I've been told by the police that I can use it as a form of ID but not when driving or trying to enter licenced premises. I've still got my older licence before that that has my maiden name on it as it's the only photo ID I have left with it on and sometimes need it to collect mail etc. It's yet to be confiscated.

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When you sign the form for a new "smart" license in Qld, one of the conditions is that when you get it you will destroy the old one.

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I see that there was a pedestrian (going for a run) that was hit by a car in Sydney yesterday ...

 

There is an article in the SMH about it but, for some reason, I can't link to Trannies at the moment ...

 

However, they can't seem to figure out the identity of said pedestrian - he's in a coma in hospital and they have no idea who he is.

 

Surely this is the ultimate case for compulsory ID for pedestrians??? I mean, its for their own safety! If he was carrying ID we would be able to identify him*

 

 

(*Research carried out by Duncan Gay also indicates that carrying ID would have stopped pedestrian-man from being hit be a car in the first place, its the ultimate safety feature)

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(*Research carried out by Duncan Gay also indicates that carrying ID would have stopped pedestrian-man from being hit be a car in the first place, its the ultimate safety feature)

Chances are he'd have been 30sec later crossing the road after going back inside to pick up the ID, so it definitely would have stopped the accident.

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