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USA shootings and gun laws

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2 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

No

 

 

N/A

 

 

You mean where the deplorables live, and where the vast majority of gun violence isn't?

Can you please provide a link to data that supports your comment re which states have gun violence? I would also like a comparison that exclude gang/unregistered firearms violence etc.

I have spent a lot of time in the USA & the majority of people in the USA want guns banned. I know people who don't work and rally full time for gun reform. 

Maybe you should visit the USA and talk to some people about gun violence.

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20 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

Can you please provide a link to data that supports your comment re which states have gun violence? I would also like a comparison that exclude gang/unregistered firearms violence etc.

I have spent a lot of time in the USA & the majority of people in the USA want guns banned. I know people who don't work and rally full time for gun reform. 

Maybe you should visit the USA and talk to some people about gun violence.

It's like people that have never been to melbourne complaining about the weather. 

He's never been to the USA. But is a total expert on the USA.  

Funny really. 

Maybe next you could educate the women of this forum on childbirth and how it's easy. 

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2 hours ago, goughy said:

Is refute the right word to be using there?  I think I actually asked a question?  In fact, I don't know if I've actually refuted anything you've said; more so I've just disagreed with you.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I've seen it too

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10 hours ago, Bored@work said:

Can you please provide a link to data that supports your comment re which states have gun violence? I would also like a comparison that exclude gang/unregistered firearms violence etc.

I have spent a lot of time in the USA & the majority of people in the USA want guns banned. I know people who don't work and rally full time for gun reform. 

Maybe you should visit the USA and talk to some people about gun violence.

I don't have stats on hand but will post them a bit later if you like?

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10 hours ago, Peter said:

It's like people that have never been to melbourne complaining about the weather. 

He's never been to the USA. But is a total expert on the USA.  

Funny really. 

Maybe next you could educate the women of this forum on childbirth and how it's easy. 

I don't recall claiming expertise

I don't recall you being able to refute any of my points either

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5 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

I don't have stats on hand but will post them a bit later if you like?

Yes please. That would be great. I have heard some crazy number that there is 5 guns for every American but only 10% of Americans own a gun. Some people must have 100s of guns.

One of my buddies over there is the head of a company that sells hospital equipment etc to Doctors (ex-ray machines, ct machines etc) anyway every year he picks his "golden boy" from the sales team & buys them a special gift as a bonus. 

The gift last year was some special edition AR-15 Assault rifle, purchased & delivered all by phone (he did know the gun shop owner). Crazy part is his wife is anti gun & would kick his ass if she ever found out. 

Our uber driver in Las Vegas had a loaded 9mm in the centre console. He was an old school gangsta from New York. He was an old dude about 60/70 but super cool to talk to & hear his stories. About shooting a punk that tried to rob him (may have been BS but it was a cool story) The gun was fully loaded with these special bullets that were designed to do maximum damage. I have photos on my phone of the gun etc. By the time we rocked back up at the Bellagio he pulled the gun out & was showing to me. The Bellagio valet area has hundreds of cameras, security guards & cops. It didn't bother him at all. He was proud of the gun & wanted to show it off. 

 

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2 hours ago, Bored@work said:

Yes please. That would be great. I have heard some crazy number that there is 5 guns for every American but only 10% of Americans own a gun. Some people must have 100s of guns.

Approximately 30% own a gun. The percentage of Americans owning a gun continues to drop and is at a 40 year low. However gun sales are at record highs. A gun owner on average owns approximately 7 guns. The top 3% of gun owners own over 25 guns.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/29/american-gun-ownership-is-now-at-a-30-year-low/?utm_term=.b5c587ef8298

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The other thing I like about Aussie gun laws now is that largely, the people with illegal guns (autos, semi-autos) only use them on each other, and they are complete shitbags, so go hard at it boys.

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4 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

I don't recall claiming expertise

I don't recall you being able to refute any of my points either

I don't need to refute your points due to simple commonsense proves you are wrong. Also delusional. Maybe even crazy. Also As 99% of this forum agree in relation to this topic that you have the wrong end of the stick  

 

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2 hours ago, Peter said:

I don't need to refute your points due to simple commonsense proves you are wrong. Also delusional. Maybe even crazy. Also As 99% of this forum agree in relation to this topic that you have the wrong end of the stick  

 

If I'm really so crazy and delusional, you should have been able to pick apart my arguments pretty easily without resorting to childish name calling

Instead you chose to have a hissy fit 

Not very convincing, if I may say so

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

If I'm really so crazy and delusional, you should have been able to pick apart my arguments pretty easily without resorting to childish name calling

Instead you chose to have a hissy fit 

Not very convincing, if I may say so

No hissy fit. 

99% of people here don't agree with doing nothing in stopping people being slaughtered by your gun loving mates. 

Thats okay. Because you know. You are en expert on all thinks American even though you've never been there. 

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There is a meme going around FB at the moment claiming that 7,182 students have been killed in US schools since 2012. The meme is incorrect. "Only" 138 students have been killed by guns in US schools since 2012.

What is correct is that over 7000 children have been killed (including suicide) by guns since Sandy Hook in 2012. What a tragedy.

 

 

FB.jpg

 

Edited by Ironnerd
Fixed picture

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38 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

There is a meme going around FB at the moment claiming that 7,182 students have been killed in US schools since 2012. The meme is incorrect. "Only" 138 students have been killed by guns in US schools since 2012.

What is correct is that over 7000 children have been killed (including suicide) by guns since Sandy Hook in 2012. What a tragedy.

 

 

FB.jpg

 

Yet ironjimbo is happy to do nothing. Sad humanbeing. 

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1 hour ago, Ironnerd said:

There is a meme going around FB at the moment claiming that 7,182 students have been killed in US schools since 2012. The meme is incorrect. "Only" 138 students have been killed by guns in US schools since 2012.

What is correct is that over 7000 children have been killed (including suicide) by guns since Sandy Hook in 2012. What a tragedy.

 

 

FB.jpg

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2010s

Less then 200 students killed since 2012. This why you should never believe anything on Facebook. If the title was number of students killed of school age (car crash, accidents etc) I could believe the numbers.

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28 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2010s

Less then 200 students killed since 2012. This why you should never believe anything on Facebook. If the title was number of students killed of school age (car crash, accidents etc) I could believe the numbers.

Wikipedia isn't fact either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:List_of_hoaxes_on_Wikipedia

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On 3/1/2018 at 9:26 AM, roxii said:

So one store is taking the step to stop selling certain guns to certain people. 

https://www.9news.com.au/world/2018/03/01/06/42/florida-school-shooting-dicks-sporting-goods-assault-rifles

Wonder how long before the NRA brings a law suit against them for some sort of violation of freedom of rights. 

Yep, I get it but the numbers just don’t support that picture

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16 hours ago, Bored@work said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States#2010s

Less then 200 students killed since 2012. This why you should never believe anything on Facebook. If the title was number of students killed of school age (car crash, accidents etc) I could believe the numbers.

The point is that 7000 children have been killed by guns since 2012. What is incorrect on the Facebook post is that they were killed at school. The 7000 children killed by guns were killed at school, at home, by suicide, etc.

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Not being a prick but I would also be interested in seeing the source data for the 7000. I'm tipping it's all deaths up to the age of 18 but it might be 21. 

I'm thinking a high percentage will be 15 to 18 year olds & gang related shootings. I could be wrong. 

My boss has taught me to get the figures & facts. Then confirm the source data is correct. If you argue with facts, you will always beat someone who is arguing with emotion. 

For the record I'm anti gun & support the Australian gun policy. 

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Ages of children are up to 17 in the estimate of 7000.

The majority of deaths are older children 13+, boys and minorities.

Gun advocates often quote that "80% of gun deaths are gangs". They seem to think that it does not matter as they are gang members. 

Most statistical studies estimate that 30%-50% of all (adult and children) gun deaths are gang related.  

Firearm-related deaths are the third leading cause of death overall among US children.

 

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23 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

 

Most statistical studies estimate that 30%-50% of all (adult and children) gun deaths are gang related.  

 

 

Yeah I thought that would be the case.

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4 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Most statistical studies estimate that 30%-50% of all (adult and children) gun deaths are gang related.  

Whilst most people say good on them. Get rid of a few more idiots; a lot of these "idiots" are young impressionable kids that got caught up in the wrong crowd. You'd hate it to be yours.

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83% of all statistics are made up.

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12 hours ago, goughy said:

83% of all statistics are made up.

Incorrect.

The internet tells me at

Quote

73.6% of  all statistics are made up.

and the internet is always right

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I'm 83% sure he did!

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1 hour ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

You only made that up.

 

22 minutes ago, goughy said:

I'm 83% sure he did!

I'm 96% sure I didn't. 

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Sort of related.

They just released the rankings of the world's best racehorses.

Should I be surprised that the horse ranked equal number 1 with Winx is a US horse called Gunrunner.  Just a bit more evidence of the US obsession I guess.

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3 hours ago, pieman said:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-19/us-boy-shoots-sister-over-video-game-controller/9564702

US boy shoots his sister in the head after she refuses to give up video game controller: police

Updated yesterday at 8:18pm

Authorities in Mississippi say a nine-year-old boy has shot his 13-year-old sister in the head and wounded her after an argument over a video game controller.

Monroe County Sheriff Cecil Cantrell told local news outlets that the girl would not give up the video game controller when her brother wanted it on Saturday (local time).

He said the boy shot the girl in the back of the head and that the bullet entered her brain.

 

Yep.  This is a case where only the parents are to blame.

If they had gun laws like us where you need to have guns locked up in gun safes, this would NEVER have happened.

The yanks can't even do the simple things to protect people.

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If they had gun laws that dictated safe storage of guns then the self-defence argument for keeping them would disappear in a puff of smoke.  You can't keep a gun safe from accidental (or deliberate) misuse AND have it at the ready for use in a crisis.

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14 minutes ago, Stikman said:

If they had gun laws that dictated safe storage of guns then the self-defence argument for keeping them would disappear in a puff of smoke.  You can't keep a gun safe from accidental (or deliberate) misuse AND have it at the ready for use in a crisis.

I think we all know that's a lie...

 

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That's gold!  With a recent discussion about the merit of padded bed heads though I could see some accidental triggerings (pardon the pun) happening with this one.

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4 hours ago, lawman said:

Sort of related.

They just released the rankings of the world's best racehorses.

Should I be surprised that the horse ranked equal number 1 with Winx is a US horse called Gunrunner.  Just a bit more evidence of the US obsession I guess.

sort of related..:lol:

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Another shooting in Maryland overnight, armed student shot 2 others before being "engaged"  by a school resource officer.  

4 days until the students march

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3 hours ago, Cottoneyes said:

Another shooting in Maryland overnight, armed student shot 2 others before being "engaged"  by a school resource officer.  

4 days until the students march

Wow I would hate to be heading to Maryland for an Ironman..........

 

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3 hours ago, Cottoneyes said:

Another shooting in Maryland overnight, armed student shot 2 others before being "engaged"  by a school resource officer.  

4 days until the students march

Nice work by the resource officer

So of the last three high profile shootings, two were stopped by a good guy with a gun, while the third should have been stopped by a good guy with a gun

Interesting...

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And all were conducted by a person that shouldn't have had a gun.  Very interesting.

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1 minute ago, Stikman said:

And all were conducted by a person that shouldn't have had a gun.  Very interesting.

Indeed

Perhaps there should be some discussion as to why existing laws aren't being enforced properly

New laws will be useless if they also won't be enforced properly

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38 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Indeed

Perhaps there should be some discussion as to why existing laws aren't being enforced properly

New laws will be useless if they also won't be enforced properly

it's time to step away from the keyboard.

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15 minutes ago, Bored@work said:

it's time to step away from the keyboard.

Yes, I'm well aware that my views don't suit the prevailing narrative

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In the Maryland incident they are still coy on whether he was "stopped" or whether he killed himself.  I know what my money is on but the responder was a SWAT member in his other job, I'm not sure that it's reasonable to expect such a response could be at hand in most incidents.  The facts are that private citizens with firearms prevent or stop so few of these incidents yet private citizens with legally possessed firearms are responsible for causing almost all of them.  It doesn't take a maths genius to work the ratios of reduced gun ownership on that one does it?

So IronJimbo you seem to assert that if the current laws were enforced the recent cohort of shooters wouldn't have had access to their weapons.  Can you enlighten us on what basis you believe this?

We know that Cruz (Florida) was brought to the attention of authorities but ignored, though it's uncertain if any action would have been taken had it not been, however he still purchased his AR15 legally.  The Las Vegas shooter purchased all of his weapons legally and there were no "missed" opportunities by authorities.  Which of the existing laws would have prevented the end of those 58 innocent lives?

Why not simply start with the question "why should people be allowed to own any amount of semi-automatic guns they want?"  Because of the second amendment?  You can't buy a rocket launcher, silencer, short barrelled rifles or shotguns, nuclear or biological weapons or SAMs.  You can be restricted from buying some otherwise legal weapons if you fail a background check through a felony conviction or (in some states) mental illness.   Obviously the second amendment isn't without some limitation, so why are the limits where they are now and not somewhere else?

You're 100% correct that a law without enforcement is meaningless, but it's not an either/or proposition.  You can introduce new laws while better enforcing existing ones.  In fact the greater the number of laws is likely to create more enforcement of existing laws by virtue of increased resources.

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13 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Yes, I'm well aware that my views don't suit the prevailing narrative

Yep. Well we all don't want to see kids get killed like you are happy to see whilst blaming it on "excuses". 

 

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15 minutes ago, Peter said:

Yep. Well we all don't want to see kids get killed like you are happy to see whilst blaming it on "excuses". 

 

That's a particularly offensive accusation Pete

What makes you think that I want to see kids killed?  And how do you think accusing me of that helps whatever point you're trying to make?

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

Indeed

Perhaps there should be some discussion as to why existing laws aren't being enforced properly

New laws will be useless if they also won't be enforced properly

while i am anti ownership of guns, IJ brings insight to this debate. 

If he is correct and existing laws; if enforced, further restricted firearms, and some new/adjustments to laws (safe storage to stop the kid shooting his sister, possibly longer stand down from purchase to receiving) may make the place safer for people.

There is no need to attack him for facts.

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25 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

 

If he is correct and existing laws; if enforced, further restricted firearms, and some new/adjustments to laws (safe storage to stop the kid shooting his sister, possibly longer stand down from purchase to receiving) may make the place safer for people.

There is no need to attack him for facts.

I can guarantee this debate about 'making the existing laws work' has been around for the past 10 years at least after numerous mass shootings. I seem to remember Michael Moores doco came out maybe 15 years ago at least. It only took one incident in both Scotland and Australia for us to act immediately. So, if they are even having a debate of having the existing laws work says to me no one is really serious about the issue. It isn't rocket science. 

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36 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

while i am anti ownership of guns, IJ brings insight to this debate. 

If he is correct and existing laws; if enforced, further restricted firearms, and some new/adjustments to laws (safe storage to stop the kid shooting his sister, possibly longer stand down from purchase to receiving) may make the place safer for people.

There is no need to attack him for facts.

 agree. There isa lot of playing the man not the ball on this one..( and i am anti gun anti nra etc.. )

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No skin off guys.  Pete says more about himself than he does about me with that sort of carry on

At least goughy had the spuds to admit he had nothing

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1 hour ago, pieman said:

 agree. There isa lot of playing the man not the ball on this one..( and i am anti gun anti nra etc.. )

not from me.

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2 hours ago, Stikman said:

So IronJimbo you seem to assert that if the current laws were enforced the recent cohort of shooters wouldn't have had access to their weapons.  Can you enlighten us on what basis you believe this?

Both the Texas and Florida shooters were known to the authorities and should have had their weapons taken away

This is an existing regulation which wasn't enforced

We know that Cruz (Florida) was brought to the attention of authorities but ignored, though it's uncertain if any action would have been taken had it not been, however he still purchased his AR15 legally. 

See above

The Las Vegas shooter purchased all of his weapons legally and there were no "missed" opportunities by authorities.  Which of the existing laws would have prevented the end of those 58 innocent lives?

None that I can think of.  But I'm also yet to hear any proposed law which would have prevented Vegas either, other than trying to go door-to-door and rounding up three hundred million weapons 

Paddock's objective was to kill a large number of people.  If he didn't have guns he probably would have just hired a truck to do the job.  Are we going to ban trucks too?

Why not simply start with the question "why should people be allowed to own any amount of semi-automatic guns they want?"  Because of the second amendment?  You can't buy a rocket launcher, silencer, short barrelled rifles or shotguns, nuclear or biological weapons or SAMs.  You can be restricted from buying some otherwise legal weapons if you fail a background check through a felony conviction or (in some states) mental illness.   Obviously the second amendment isn't without some limitation, so why are the limits where they are now and not somewhere else?

As you say there are regulations already on the books, but they need to be adopted by all states and enforced

You're 100% correct that a law without enforcement is meaningless, but it's not an either/or proposition.  You can introduce new laws while better enforcing existing ones.  In fact the greater the number of laws is likely to create more enforcement of existing laws by virtue of increased resources.

Perhaps.  But it gets back to the original question I've been asking all along - show me a law or laws which is at least possible to implement and would be effective

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