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USA shootings and gun laws

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11 minutes ago, goughy said:

I'm really really sorry, but it's hard not to for some I guess.  You say we should clarify your position before ridiculing it, and that not all teachers should be armed! So that pretty clearly indicates that you think some teachers should be armed....  Which ones?  Are there some statistics somewhere that indicate which classes are most likely to be attacked so just those teachers?  What if an attack occurs on the other side of the campus?

If they are going to arm anyone on campuses, it should only be police officers or armed uniformed security guards.

I'm more than happy for armed security guards in schools if the Police can't protect the kids

I'm also happy for teachers to be armed if they choose to be and are proficient

Both of these are better options than having teachers and students hiding under their desks waiting to be shot

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20 minutes ago, Peter said:

I think you need a rest from this topic until the next mass shooting. ;) 

Soo, see you tomorrow maybe?? 

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47 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

I'm more than happy for armed security guards in schools if the Police can't protect the kids

I'm also happy for teachers to be armed if they choose to be and are proficient

Both of these are better options than having teachers and students hiding under their desks waiting to be shot

I wonder what could be an even better option than any of those?  I wonder if there's another country somewhere that doesn't find it necessary to consider arming teachers, or having armed security guards and officers patrolling campuses?  Just let me think and rack my brain for a bit and I'll see if I can come up with a place that has a better, working solution that could make kids safer in class.....

..... Give me a while, I'm sure such a country and its solutions will come to me in time!!

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1 hour ago, goughy said:

I wonder what could be an even better option than any of those?  I wonder if there's another country somewhere that doesn't find it necessary to consider arming teachers, or having armed security guards and officers patrolling campuses?  Just let me think and rack my brain for a bit and I'll see if I can come up with a place that has a better, working solution that could make kids safer in class.....

..... Give me a while, I'm sure such a country and its solutions will come to me in time!!

Take your time mate

Make sure said country is comparable in terms of size, population, guns per capita etc though.  I tens to find that strawmen arguments don't generally have much value in debates

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:rolleyes:   

Meanwhile since this thread started over 80,000 Americans have died died by the gun. 

 

Sounds like Nero needs a louder fiddle. 

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Luckily I don't care about the reality of it with regards to what I'd like to see happen. This is just what I completely believe needs to happen.

What do I actually expect to happen?  Very little really.  I totally believe they're at least 20 to 40 years away from any significant changes, if at all.  I truly believe that at the moment, any president that tries to make significant change will be shot.  

Still doesn't change my beliefs on gun control, and what access to guns I think the general public should have and have started before.  And I'll happily tell anybody that, NRA American gun nut or not.  And happily accept any abuse, criticism, alternate argument, whatever, that will have no affect on my belief cause I am firm on it.

Edited by goughy
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We would all like to see an end to mass shootings in the US, school shootings in particular.  Where we disagree is how we think they should go about it, but that doesn't mean either of us cares any less

As long as the pollies are stuck in the 'you don't care as much as I do' bullshit they won't get anywhere

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3 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

I'm sure that would indeed make life a fair bit easier for you guys

its a bit like you are flogging a dead horse.  Even I give AP or PJ a break after I've slammed them for a few days.  You are going on 2 weeks.  

As I said, you've flogged the horse 3-4 times now.  We get it.

You love guns and want the yanks to have them and think we should have them too so we can see our kids shot at schools.

All good.  Your opinion.

99% of others on this site don't agree.  But we have seen your point.

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3 minutes ago, Peter said:

You love guns and want the yanks to have them and think we should have them too so we can see our kids shot at schools.

 

Did you actually intend to provide an example of the bullshit I mentioned in the post above yours?

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Ironjimbo, on a serious note, just what was meant behind the 2nd amendment of "the right to bear arms" ? 

 

why was it ever adopted?  

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4 minutes ago, Prince said:

Ironjimbo, on a serious note, just what was meant behind the 2nd amendment of "the right to bear arms" ? 

 

why was it ever adopted?  

And on a serious note anyone got a time machine or Ouji board?  Both sides have their own take on what Jefferson et al had in inserting that amendment, and no side is going to prove their side unless Jefferson et al is actually asked

The only lesson from it all is be careful of what you right for future generations to read as you can cause massive conflicts.  You think after the Bible and Quaran, Jefferson would have known better

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It would never get through these days, because one of the main arguments you keep hearing against changing things now, is that "You can't change the Constitution!". WTF is an Amendment?

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2 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Did you actually intend to provide an example of the bullshit I mentioned in the post above yours?

No need.  

 

horse.jpg

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2 hours ago, Cottoneyes said:

And on a serious note anyone got a time machine or Ouji board?  Both sides have their own take on what Jefferson et al had in inserting that amendment, and no side is going to prove their side unless Jefferson et al is actually asked

The only lesson from it all is be careful of what you right for future generations to read as you can cause massive conflicts.  You think after the Bible and Quaran, Jefferson would have known better

But the guns were based on muskets and ballbearings.....

Edited by Prince

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Ironjimbo, have you ever been to the USA. If so what states have you visited.

Your views seem to align with the fly over states.

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As a parent, I wouldn't want to send my kid to a school where there is a chance that the maths teacher (or anyone else) could get into a shoot out in a hallway crowded with children.

When you have twice as many bullets flying around a crowded hallway (the Florida shooting WAS in crowded hallways), I suggest you are likely to have twice as many casualties, not less.

I realise you feel there is something special about the US, and we can't compare it to any other country (that actually IS what you suggested above: "Make sure said country is comparable in terms of size, population, guns per capita etc though"), but in every other country, mass shootings at schools either don't occur or occur very infrequently. Statistics are statistics, and I am not bending ANY rules of statistics by pointing out that the most obvious solution based on the statistics, is LESS guns = more safety for school students.

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4 hours ago, Prince said:

Ironjimbo, on a serious note, just what was meant behind the 2nd amendment of "the right to bear arms" ? 

 

why was it ever adopted?  

My understanding is that the main purpose of the second amendment was to provide a means for a 'well regulated militia' to rise up against a tyrannical government.  Which is kind of ironic given the left's penchant for words like 'tyrant' when describing Republican presidents

The right to keep and bear arms would have more contemporary relevance though, as a means for self defence, home security, etc.

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1 hour ago, Bored@work said:

Ironjimbo, have you ever been to the USA.

No

If so what states have you visited.

N/A

Your views seem to align with the fly over states.

You mean where the deplorables live, and where the vast majority of gun violence isn't?

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4 hours ago, Cottoneyes said:

And on a serious note anyone got a time machine or Ouji board?  Both sides have their own take on what Jefferson et al had in inserting that amendment, and no side is going to prove their side unless Jefferson et al is actually asked

James Madison goes into a bit of detail in Federalist Paper #46

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12 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

My understanding is that the main purpose of the second amendment was to provide a means for a 'well regulated militia' to rise up against a tyrannical government.

Yes, that is almost exactly as described by some current militia types today, cept they believe it is still necessary today.  They are the ones I most expect to be shooting at a pres that tries to do something. 

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26 minutes ago, goughy said:

Yes, that is almost exactly as described by some current militia types today, cept they believe it is still necessary today.  They are the ones I most expect to be shooting at a pres that tries to do something. 

Those same types were also expected to try and shoot Obama because he's black though

Then again the President is typically in the company of good guys with guns... 

Edited by IronJimbo

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So they have more around them then Reagan had?  

Yeah, if Obama had gone after guns he was well and truly screwed...

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2 minutes ago, goughy said:

So they have more around them then Reagan had?  

Probably 

I wonder if you'll have to go back another 35 years in order to refute my next point 

Yeah, if Obama had gone after guns he was well and truly screwed...

I doubt it, but hey

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Is refute the right word to be using there?  I think I actually asked a question?  In fact, I don't know if I've actually refuted anything you've said; more so I've just disagreed with you.

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