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USA shootings and gun laws

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There’s a new series on Netflix called Flint Town. It’s based on an understaffed police station in Michigan trying to survive gun crime and drugs... It’s hard to believe a western country lives like that... 

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On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:35 AM, Ironnerd said:

Where are you getting your statistics from the NRA web site?

Which statistics are you disagreeing with?

The Australian buy back reduced the total number of guns by about 30% or 650,000 guns. The ban and buy back only applied to automatic and semi automatic. The other roughly 70% of guns were not covered by the ban. I can not find any statistics on how many semi automatic guns were not handed in. Do you have any?

I've seen a report which suggests that a million guns have been surrendered since 1996, but a greater number of new ones have been purchased to replace them with

I have seen estimates of there being between 250 and 300 million guns in the US. Approximately 50% or these are semi automatic hand guns and rifles. So at worst you would have to buy back ~150 million guns @ $250 = $37 billion. US tax payers pay a total of $1.23 trillion in taxes in a year. Increasing the tax rate by less than 1% for a single year would buy back all of the semi automatics. Seems cheap to me.

Cool.  Hopefully people will actually participate, so you won't have to worry about enforcement

The next step after that is to have a think about the big cities where all the murder is actually happening

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On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 9:38 AM, Cottoneyes said:

Latest NRA talk point:

"We're all told not to judge all muslims by the actions of a few, yet we're told to treat all gun owners the same"

Aside from the fact that the evil NRA said it, that's actually a pretty good point

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2 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

I've seen a report which suggests that a million guns have been surrendered since 1996, but a greater number of new ones have been purchased to replace them with

  1. The Australian population has increased at the same time. So the number of guns per capita is 23% lower than it was before Port Arthur.
  2. The guns that have been purchased since Port Arthur are not semi automatic, they are "single shot"

 

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23 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:
  1. The Australian population has increased at the same time. So the number of guns per capita is 23% lower than it was before Port Arthur.
  2. The guns that have been purchased since Port Arthur are not semi automatic, they are "single shot"

 

1. The Unites States has four times as many gun owners as Australia has people

2.  The Unites States has twelve times as many guns as Australia has people

3.  The vast majority of gun deaths in the US are via hand guns

4.  The clear majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides, followed by gang members shooting each other

5.  'Mass shootings' in the US account for less than one percent of gun deaths

6.  The US is not even in the top ten globally for mass shootings per capita

7.  More people are killed every week in Chicago with hand guns than were killed by Stephen Paddock in Las Vegas

 

If you are serious about reducing gun violence in the US, concentrate on where it is happening.  Not in the boonies where people own rifles, in the cities where people own illegal hand guns

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The ball has to start rolling somewhere, somehow.  

Me personally, I see no reason why anyone needs a handgun, anything semi-automatic or automatic.  Ok, there's hunting which is legal. Single shot bolt action as far as I'm concerned. No one needs anything with a magazine.

Obviously I accept that there are certain occupations exempt from this.  Housewife, accountant, gangster etc are not one of them. This is all my personal opinion of course, coming from a guy who loves action movies etc and his son owns a tonne of NERF guns.  And who was very upset the other day because his best mates at school have been taken shooting at gun ranges with their dads and they reckon it's the coolest thing ever,  but I won't take him (they're all 13).

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50 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

 

56 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

1. The Unites States has four times as many gun owners as Australia has people

Agreed the US does have too many guns.

2.  The Unites States has twelve times as many guns as Australia has people

Agreed the US does have too many guns.

3.  The vast majority of gun deaths in the US are via hand guns

Agreed. Just banning semi automatics is not enough.

4.  The clear majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides, followed by gang members shooting each other

So the US does not have a gun problem as it is only suicidal people and gang members dying????

5.  'Mass shootings' in the US account for less than one percent of gun deaths

Less than one percent. Hardly worth worrying about then.

6.  The US is not even in the top ten globally for mass shootings per capita

It is the top by a long way if you look at the top ten western countries.

7.  More people are killed every week in Chicago with hand guns than were killed by Stephen Paddock in Las Vegas.

Agreed. Hand guns and semi automatics should be banned.

If you are serious about reducing gun violence in the US, concentrate on where it is happening.  Not in the boonies where people own rifles, in the cities where people own illegal hand guns

Everyone else that has replied to this thread thinks that gun control is the solution. What is your solution then IronJimbo?

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31 minutes ago, Ironnerd said:

Everyone else that has replied to this thread thinks that gun control is the solution. What is your solution then IronJimbo?

We can stop misrepresenting the views and motives of those who disagree with us, for starters

There does indeed seem to be a consensus that 'gun control' is the answer, but very little detail about what realistic and enforceable gun control would look like

I've already called for bans on bump stocks and the like, an overhaul of regulations regarding the mentally ill and background checks generally.  I don't see much value in passing a bunch of new laws though if the authorities can't enforce the laws which currently exist

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

We can stop misrepresenting the views and motives of those who disagree with us, for starters

There does indeed seem to be a consensus that 'gun control' is the answer, but very little detail about what realistic and enforceable gun control would look like

I've already called for bans on bump stocks and the like, an overhaul of regulations regarding the mentally ill and background checks generally.  I don't see much value in passing a bunch of new laws though if the authorities can't enforce the laws which currently exist

Realistic and enforceable gun control would look like it does in the rest of the western world.

Just because something is difficult to enforce does not mean that it should not be done. For example drugs, speeding, using a mobile phone while driving.

So your "solution" is to make some minor changes that will achieve nothing.

This article was published on WAToday. Gun control does work.

http://www.watoday.com.au/national/study-shows-nra-is-wrong-about-aussie-gun-laws-20180312-p4z41i.html

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11 hours ago, Ironnerd said:

Realistic and enforceable gun control would look like it does in the rest of the western world.

Just because something is difficult to enforce does not mean that it should not be done. For example drugs, speeding, using a mobile phone while driving.

So your "solution" is to make some minor changes that will achieve nothing.

This article was published on WAToday. Gun control does work.

http://www.watoday.com.au/national/study-shows-nra-is-wrong-about-aussie-gun-laws-20180312-p4z41i.html

You have a leftist article

I have a conservative article...

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/10/australia-gun-control-obama-america/

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6 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

You have a leftist article

I have a conservative article...

https://www.nationalreview.com/2015/10/australia-gun-control-obama-america/

Regardless of which way you swing until SOMETHING is done people are still dying by gun at an alarming (to Australians) rate. 

But doing nothing is certainly not going to fix it. 

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10 minutes ago, roxii said:

Regardless of which way you swing until SOMETHING is done people are still dying by gun at an alarming (to Australians) rate. 

But doing nothing is certainly not going to fix it. 

Agreed

Is it wrong to suggest doing something which is more likely to be actually effective though? 

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That depends, Im of he view that any gun off the streets is one less "opportunity" for something to go wrong, regardless of the reason, motivation or mechanism for getting that gun off the street. If it infringes on some "right" the so be it.  

I never thought Id mutter these words but "Thank God for John Howard" 

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21 minutes ago, roxii said:

That depends, Im of he view that any gun off the streets is one less "opportunity" for something to go wrong, regardless of the reason, motivation or mechanism for getting that gun off the street. If it infringes on some "right" the so be it.  

I never thought Id mutter these words but "Thank God for John Howard" 

Of course.  It's obvious that if you confiscate all the guns you remove all the risk

The problem with that is that there are three hundred million of them.  And the authorities who would be charged with collecting them haven't really been showering themselves in glory lately

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True, but doing nothing is not helping and while they wait and mull over the issue, gun nuts are stockpiling in case their "rights" to buy new weapons are ever repealed. 

I believe the biggest thing stopping civilised debate among sensible people is the NRA, I think they are more than a gun movement, they have become a billion dollar organisation that needs to stay relevant and keep its nose in everything to keep its executive in the manner to which they have become accustomed. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, roxii said:

True, but doing nothing is not helping and while they wait and mull over the issue, gun nuts are stockpiling in case their "rights" to buy new weapons are ever repealed. 

I've already made a few suggestions of things which could be done.  But writing Americans off as crazy gun nuts doesn't really help either

Quote

I believe the biggest thing stopping civilised debate among sensible people is the NRA, I think they are more than a gun movement, they have become a billion dollar organisation that needs to stay relevant and keep its nose in everything to keep its executive in the manner to which they have become accustomed. 

Of the bullion dollars plus spent over the last election cycle, the NRA donated about $20 million to candidates.  The NRA's power comes from its volume of members, not its money

The belief that all the NRA does is bribe Republicans is sheer nonsense, especially when you consider how much more unions give to Democrats.  If anything, I would suggest that the million-plus gun safety courses run by the NRA each year is more likely to prevent 'something going wrong'

As I alluded to earlier, what's really stopping civilised debate is misrepresentation of the motives and beliefs of political opponents.  The same thing happens here and it's the main thing that turns people off politics.  Democrats and Republicans need to sit down, agree on what the actual starting point is, remove emotion, introduce the facts and get on with it

Edited by IronJimbo

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15 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

  Democrats and Republicans need to sit down, agree on what the actual starting point is, remove emotion, introduce the facts and get on with it

And that's never going to happen, so in a nutshell they will continue to die in large and needless numbers. 

I'm over losing sleep over it but feel for my friends who live there. [End] 

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55 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Of course.  It's obvious that if you confiscate all the guns you remove all the risk

The problem with that is that there are three hundred million of them.  And the authorities who would be charged with collecting them haven't really been showering themselves in glory lately

But if you stop selling them, there will still be 300 million guns out there.

But there won;t be 400 million in 10 years time.  There might only be 250 million.

They have to start somewhere.

I got banned from twitter for 24 hours after I told someone from the NRA that I'm glad they have guns and kill each other whilst the rest of the world laugh at them.

My takeaway from that was that the NRA are involved/have power over Twitter.

 

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How many NRA members are involved in mass shootings (other than stopping them)?

Mass shootings happen because crazy people get guns.  What do you think would be more likely to help - trying to round up one sixth of the guns, or making sure crazy people have their guns confiscated and receive treatment?

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58 minutes ago, roxii said:

True, but doing nothing is not helping and while they wait and mull over the issue, gun nuts are stockpiling in case their "rights" to buy new weapons are ever repealed. 

 

Stockpiling of weapons is not the biggest threat.  You have militia and other groups already paranoid that the government is doing their best to take away their 'freedoms', jobs, way of life and to control the masses - deweaponising these groups is going to trigger bigger issues - even though it is required to end the threat.  These groups are made up of ex military people who became disillusioned with the whole process - their skills in warcraft including bomb making is scary

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43 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

How many NRA members are involved in mass shootings (other than stopping them)?

Mass shootings happen because crazy people get guns.  What do you think would be more likely to help - trying to round up one sixth of the guns, or making sure crazy people have their guns confiscated and receive treatment?

This is the same line the gun-mad Yanks are pushing.  It's not about the guns per se, but the type of guns.

I'd rather face a gunman with a repeating bolt action rifle than one with an AR15.  As one ex-military Yank said, AR15s are a slightly dumbed down military M4, and are designed to be incredibly easy to use and maintain in order to kill as many people as quickly as possible (accurate, minimal recoil, easy to use, powerful.....basically a people killing tool...so why let any tool have one?) No one except a soldier needs one.

If the kid in Florida had a repeating 22-250 instead of an AR15, there'd probably be 10 more kids alive.

I do agree though, the Genie is out of the bottle.  Way too many military guns already in circulation in the US.  They are rooted.

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19 minutes ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

If the kid in Florida had a repeating 22-250 instead of an AR15, there'd probably be 10 more kids alive.

If the FBI had done their job the kids would all still be alive

As was the case in the Texas church shooting when incidentally the 'good guy with a gun' theory was demonstrated pretty well

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

If the FBI had done their job the kids would all still be alive

As was the case in the Texas church shooting when incidentally the 'good guy with a gun' theory was demonstrated pretty well

The FBI like our police can't be everywhere. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Peter said:

The FBI like our police can't be everywhere. 

True

But when they receive over thirty warnings about somebody and do nothing I think it's fair to ask a few questions

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2 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

If the FBI had done their job the kids would all still be alive

As was the case in the Texas church shooting when incidentally the 'good guy with a gun' theory was demonstrated pretty well

I agree with you, in this case the authorities f*cked up badly.  This guy was on their radar and they let him buy an AR15.  But in general, I think Peter has it right.  They can't know about everyone who loses the plot & has a military weapon.

I think the Texas shooting might be the only case ever where the 'good guy' scarred off the gun nutter? And even then he did a pretty amateur job. By the time he got there, 26 killed, 20 wounded.  Again, if he's had a repeating rifle instead of an AR15, maybe 10 dead, 10 wounded?  Even less if someone jumped him while he was working the bolt.  You can't jump an AR15 until he is changing mags.

The best solution is the Johnny Howard solution.  But I fear it is no longer possible in the US, so expect to keep seeing American kids and other innocents getting AR15 sized holes blasted through them.

The terrorists may as well retire, Americans do such an amazing job of killing each other.

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