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Mike Honcho

The Expat Thread.

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Sexual ly abusing and murdering a 7 year old child. Sounds like a pretty good way of dealing with it.

Except reading more info this case reads that it is more likely male family members committed the crime and blamed the mother.

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Western countries have double standards regarding the death penalty to justify going to war with a country over oil. It's easier to convince people in the USA that going to war against a country that executes 'innocent' women is ok.

 

China carry out the most executions, with estimates of the numbers being in the thousands in recent years. But we love China, right? All that cheap labour lets Aussies manufacture off-shore and increase their profit margin.

 

But human rights issues are always dragged out to justify 'oil wars' on Middle Eastern countries.

After China, Iran, Iraq, Saudi and then the USA have the highest execution rates - I'm sure the USA have women on death row. Japan still has the death penalty too BTW.

We love China? Nope, would never set foot in that cesspit with such disregard for human rights. It was disgusting that the Olympics were held there.

 

Justify it however you want but Niseko is on the money, albeit lacking some tact.

 

Amazing how many people are happy to morally whore themselves for money, sorry Macca.

 

Yes, other countries have the death penalty but not based on such a ridiculously antiquated and corrupt (and that's saying something!) system. Hacked to death in the street and you defend that? Bloody animals.

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We love China? Nope, would never set foot in that cesspit with such disregard for human rights. It was disgusting that the Olympics were held there.

 

Justify it however you want but Niseko is on the money, albeit lacking some tact.

 

Amazing how many people are happy to morally whore themselves for money, sorry Macca.

 

Yes, other countries have the death penalty but not based on such a ridiculously antiquated and corrupt (and that's saying something!) system. Hacked to death in the street and you defend that? Bloody animals.

 

 

I reckon a professional qualification entitles you to practice that profession in the place you choose. eg Health Care is not related to Human Right's abuses.

 

It also noteable here on the thread, the entire body of work, that the one's taking up this cause, are the one's who have not yet set foot in the countries they are complaining about.

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I'm sure you could have a pretty nice life living in some of the more moderate countries of the ME.

 

Leaving aside totally issues with the treatment of women, lack of human rights, overt slavery and other moral issues I have with those states.

 

Personally I find religion to be more grating than most, and I am desperately lacking in tolerance for people that take it seriously and whose mindset is 600 years behind developed countries. I just couldn't get over it and would imagine I would just be walking around angry and frustrated all day; surrounded by people who are by most definitions of the word, truly insane.

 

And Japan may have and do some things I don't agree with but the governemnt would never shoot unarmed peaceful protestors like they do in Bahrain.

Edited by Niseko
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Amazing how many people are happy to morally whore themselves for money, sorry Macca.

 

Yes, other countries have the death penalty but not based on such a ridiculously antiquated and corrupt (and that's saying something!) system. Hacked to death in the street and you defend that? Bloody animals.

Who is defending the death penalty? certainly not I. Just pointing out hypocrisy.

 

It's not a crime to desire a good retirement. Do you critisise weathly sportsmen who choose to live in tax free countries such as Monaco? Australia lost me with its mismanagement of my tax dollars. I put in 30years of tax in Aus. I feel entitles to some tax free income for a few years before retirement. I owe Aus nothing and will ask for nothing if I ever return.

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And Japan may have and do some things I don't agree with but the governemnt would never shoot unarmed peaceful protestors like they do in Bahrain.

Peaceful? Gimme a break.

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So you're defending the actions of the Bahrani government to shoot unarmed protesters? Or just making a point over the definition of peaceful?

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You might want to do some research into how many Bahrain Police officers have been murdered by the 'peaceful, unarmed protesters' that you know so much about having never been to the ME.

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The cheapest food that we knew was foul, crushed beans and flat bread from the clay oven, $1.25 per bowl round out to $1.50 with a cup of tea, incredible delicious

 

.

 

The fuil name of said dish is "foul medames" which always sounds to me like the French word for something you would find in the darker alleys around the Quartier Pigalle in Paris.... :)

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The fuil name of said dish is "foul medames" which always sounds to me like the French word for something you would find in the darker alleys around the Quartier Pigalle in Paris....PETE.

 

 

 

 

 

It is one item that as far as I know you can't get outside the M.E.,unless maybe in Lebanese areas, but the Lebanese do not crush the beans, so it's different. Missed it now and then, 2 bowls after a long ride, heaven, or paradise as the case may be. Foul gulapa, mixed with chili,onion, tomato, topped with

zetoun (olive oil) about 1 SR extra or no charge.

 

Pete, take a look at the sacks they bring the beans in "Australian White Beans or Navy Beans", 75kg, I think it said. And I am not sure how this would be possible, the Afghani guy quoted me the price, way down at 50 cents/kg.....how can that be?

Edited by Kamal2

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There is an Indian dish called 'meat Phal' at restaurants here, it's friggin' hot, is that the same? I tried it once, it was like eating fire!

Edited by FatPom

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There is an Indian dish called 'meat Phal' at restaurants here, it's friggin' hot, is that the same? I tried it once, it was like eating fire!

 

 

 

 

No, foul is not actually hot unless you get the additives. Foul the crushed kind was a Yemeni dish and they intro'd it to Saudi's. Yemeni's faced restrictions here since 1991, so the breadmakers, Afghani's took over the foul making.

 

Foul medames is the Lebanese version and it's not hot.

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FAT POM.

 

There is an Indian dish called 'meat Phal' at restaurants here, it's friggin' hot, is that the same? I tried it once, it was like eating fire!

 

 

No, foul is not actually hot unless you get the additives. Foul the crushed kind was a Yemeni dish and they intro'd it to Saudi's. Yemeni's faced restrictions here since 1991, so the breadmakers,the Afghani's took over the foul making.

 

Foul medames is the Lebanese version and it's not hot.

Edited by Kamal2

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Edit. Unnecessarily sarcastic and probably not constructive.

If I deleted on that criteria I'd be down to single digit posts.

 

Who gives a farm if you've been to the Middle East or not. It's not required to form an opinion in these days of hyper information.

 

The other day I saw a bunch of people coming inside the building shaking water off their umbrella and clothes. Did I need to go outside to fully comprehend that it was raining?

 

Of course not. And I don't have to go to the ME to understand the whole area is a theocratic shithole where most of the population are insane and 600 years behind us.

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So for you folks that have cleaners, gardeners etc, would you have all that hired help if you were back home? Is it a lifestyle you want?

 

Or do you just indulge because labour is cheap enough so its a matter of, "why not"?

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I lived in Vanuatu for 3 & half years as an expat. Had the wife and 2 kids with me. One of the best things we did as a family. It broadened the kids, helped my wife get used to lots of people and helped me run a business with a little help from afar.

 

Regarding gardeners and cleaners. Yes, we had them over there and we don't at home. The difference for me was that I was on 24 hour call and always "Mr Westpac" there. Whether it was during the day, out to dinner, at the casino, driving around the island or 3am in the morning. Yes, I had spare time to do things - I also had to do a lot that I don't do here.

 

I remember being at the nightclub with the missus at 3am and I had someone asking about business. You never really get a chance to be incognito in a small place. You cannot go troppo as you will send the wrong corporate message.

 

The money was OK (not fantastic but better than at home). So there were benefits monetary-wise and business wise. To me the great thing was the friends developed, the culture taken and the family bond and life skills learnt.

 

FM

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I have a cleaner and a gardener and I live in Sydney. By the way I don't pay them the same rate as I pay my dentist or doctor. Does that mean I am exploiting them?

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So for you folks that have cleaners, gardeners etc, would you have all that hired help if you were back home? Is it a lifestyle you want?

 

Or do you just indulge because labour is cheap enough so its a matter of, "why not"?

 

I consider it part and parcel of being a rich expat in a poor country. Its like spreading the wealth. I dont need the maid but I feel that the $400 a month will give the wife a break she deserves after working the last 20 years. And the money the maid earns will help her family in getting education, clothing and maybe a roof on their shack that will stop the monsoon rains.

 

When back at home we have a cleaner. We pay him what he charges. If he wanted to charge more then i guess we would pay it. i wouldnt be able to affford a live in maid at home so ive built a granny flat and moving the in-laws in. Crazy i know.

 

To make a comparison with wages here. My driver also gets paid about $450 a month. He works hard for that money and keeps me and my family safe on the roads. I dont know where his next pay cheque will come from when I leave.

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Interesting thread. After 3 years as an "expat" (but locally hired on local "plus" wages) in Nairobi, Kenya, I can relate to some of the stories here with regard to places like Thailand / Philippines. We also had a house help, who once our daughter was born did the cleaning as well as taking care of the little one. We paid her USD 100 per month, and that was good money. We also let her have left over food etc. Even though our spendable income dropped when we moved to Melbourne, the relative safety we got in return was worth a lot, especially for my wife.

 

Since all 4 of us have Dutch passports, would I still consider me an expat living in Australia? No, can't say I do. It's just too easy to integrate here ;-)

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It's okay to exploit people as long as they are not in australia then it's okay, your moral compass is fine. The new colonialism.

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I have a cleaner and a gardener and I live in Sydney. By the way I don't pay them the same rate as I pay my dentist or doctor. Does that mean I am exploiting them?

yep because that is what was said, pay them the what a doctor gets. Don't pay domestic workers in the ME slave wages even if it makes them better of. Here's a novel thought as you earn your inflated tax free wags pay them what they would get under the award in Australia.

 

The customer as champion of minority rights over the years has quickly embraced the new colonialism.

Edited by BarryBevan

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You're being a bit narrow minded Barry.

I hardly think anyone is being exploited in any of the stories told here.

It's easy to have a romantic notion that you'd pay Aussie wages to the poor struggling foreigner.

In reality, you pay what is customary and probably a bit on the generous side of that.

Your theoretical attempt the Australianise the wage structure with complete disregard for the reality is baffling.

I didn't pay 3 times the nightly rate for a Hotel room in Germany just because that's what it would have cost me on the Gold Coast.

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Barry what would be the rate in which you feel would not be exploitation?

 

Do you feel you exploit someone in Australia earning the minimum wage of understanding $17 an hour?

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Yes lots of great area. Look at what the Qatari fukkers are doing with the workers building the stadiums. That is messed up.

 

Expats paying cleaners and nannies market rates. Not some hung I'm upset about.

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You're being a bit narrow minded Barry.

I hardly think anyone is being exploited in any of the stories told here.

It's easy to have a romantic notion that you'd pay Aussie wages to the poor struggling foreigner.

In reality, you pay what is customary and probably a bit on the generous side of that.

Your theoretical attempt the Australianise the wage structure with complete disregard for the reality is baffling.

I didn't pay 3 times the nightly rate for a Hotel room in Germany just because that's what it would have cost me on the Gold Coast.

I paid my cleaners australian minimum wages in the US for three years

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Barry what would be the rate in which you feel would not be exploitation?

 

Do you feel you exploit someone in Australia earning the minimum wage of understanding $17 an hour?

I think 17 bucks an hour is fine. I did not feel right paying 3 bucks an hour to a struggling worker so I figured I am doing okay, so i topped up the wages. I get what you are saying, we can' enforce a global award, I figure maybe we do the best we can not to be part of the problem noting that we can't save everyone.

 

International boycott of these disgraceful nations who torture their people and have horrendous industrial relations, but then what would we do with china, it's easy to be moral when it costs me nothing other than a few bytes in an internet post.

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For anyone interested in the goings on in Bahrain but doesn't want to see it clogging up a thread about triathlon this is the Global Gender Gap report 2014. It measures gender inequality so despite what some might tell you that it's a great place to live you can see that it ranks 124th out of 142 countries.

 

http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2014/economies/#economy=BHR

 

And this from UNICEF

 

http://www.unicef.org/gender/files/Bahrain-Gender-Eqaulity-Profile-2011.pdf

 

Which includes such gems as:

 

Divorce rights. A Bahraini man can divorce his wife for any reason, while women can request divorce only under certain specific circumstances

 

Inheritance rights. In general however, women will inherit a smaller share than men. For
instance, a daughter has the right to a share of the inheritance that is half of her brother’s.

 

Protection from child marriage. In 2007 the Minister of Justice and Islamic affairs established minimum ages of marriage of 15 for girls and 18 for boys. Prior to 2007 there was no set minimum age of marriage.

 

Protection from gender-based violence. Domestic violence is not specifically addressed in the penal code and spousal rape is not considered a crime. A rapist can, however, avoid punishment by marrying his victim.

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and I have a good Saudi Arabian friend who's ex-wife just got custody of their child despite his many appeals.

 

Prior to 1997 it was a crime to be gay in Tasmania (however, the law was rarely enforced).

 

You can dig up whatever you want to find on the internet but it doesn't necessarily reflect what goes on.

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Andrew.

 

I still have my own house in Sri Lanka. I never lived there permanently, but did go there to oversee my farm over a 20 year period. During very long running Tamil uprising, SL had the worst Human Right's issues in the world.

 

I lived now 10 years in Phils, where under the previous admin, Gloria Arroyo, they rose to 3rd in the world in Human Right's abuse, largely on potically motivated killings.

 

I lived long term in Saudi where Human Rights abuse was rampant, but as a closed country the extent of the problem will never be fully known, but it's definitely still there.

 

Then Bahrain been there a number of times. A place I would not live due to auto safety issues, every weekend young Saudi's go over to race their cars and a few will die over the weekend.

 

How about the Latin American border countries, even Mexico, big retirement venues for Americans.

 

Bottom Line: None of the above, Andrew, the points you mentioned would not preclude me living in a country if ever I decided to work there or even retire there.

 

How about you?

Edited by Kamal2

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These are all things I will take into consideration. I read something really disturbing only the other day about the Phils police using torture that shocked me. And speaking of Central America I also read recently about how young rape victims who become pregnant are treated in El Salvador. I realise nowhere is perfect including Australia but I just don't know if I could live anywhere that I felt sponsored or even just tolerated outright cruelty towards its citizens. Lots to think about.

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Mate, one thing I have hated my whole life, notwithstanding Human Rights, because when I was younger didn't know much about it....that would be racial and ethnic discrimination. Now in every country I have lived, and remember I lived extended periods in 5 different countries and visited a few more, some forms of discrimination have existed.

 

Now I'm not geting myself killed in the name of a cause, but I reckon to have a good attitude in this area, well above the basic Aussie view, those who have not travelled extensively, would not have a clue about the subject or even the meaning of discrimination.

 

Andrw you see my bike club pictures on FB, i think. After living in different cultures entire life since age 17, I look at the pictures and naturally I look at pictures of myself. It is only at that moment I realise that I look different from the other guys. I reckon if ever you reach that point, you are ready to live in another culture without looking back.

 

But if some foreign govt wants to ignore Human Rights violations and encourages less than equal right for women. I'm powerless, but it would not preclude me from living in that country if either through work or personal choice.

 

i did say above that Bahrain is not a place I would live. But I would live in Oman, esp down south, or Qatar, if I was given the opportunity.....conversely I would not live in Bangladesh, Somalia or Burma and a list of others, for variable reasons, maybe obvious enough. Yemen for many years was a British expat paradise, but that has changed, so no, I would not live in a country that has a civil war going on**

 

**I did live in SL, during a Civil War but as a property owner I had to hold fast.

Edited by Kamal2

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I've traveled pretty extensively throughout SE Asia and I assure you race is not an issue for me. The things I'm considering when deciding where to semi retire are many and varied but are largely around weather and cost of living. This report looks at some of the best countries in the world to retire to and like all lists is open to debate but it's a good starting point. Next year I'd like to get to Central America and/or the Caribbean for a holiday but also to check them out as possible retirement locations. And don't worry the Philippines is still on my list :smile1:

 

http://internationalliving.com/2015/01/the-best-places-to-retire-2015/

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As I said in another thread, no matter which country I work in, I keep my political, social and religious beliefs to myself. You have to remember, you are a guest and have to respect that. Otherwise, don't go. Throw rocks from afar. Ultimately, what does that achieve other than trying to make yourself feel good.

 

When I'm asked to go to a project somewhere, I don't Google that countries human rights records or anything else other than where they are. If I did that I would limit where I could work - you've only got to look in our own backyard!

 

In the Gulf things are slowly changing. You can sit in Kingdom Tower in Riyadh on any Thursday night and actually see the change. There are older women with the full kit on, including gloves. Then there are their daughters - without gloves and more of the face showing. Then their daughters with abaya but scarf worn over the shoulders, not covering the head and full face showing. Their daughters are wearing jeans and trendy clothes, the same as you'd see in Sydney.

It's the same for the men - they even wear those stupid trucker hats with their ears tucked in!

However, they have to be driven to the mall.

 

As much as some say the general workers are slaves here, if Gulf countries sent home all their subcontinent workers the place cease to function. The amount of work they do as part of the council as we'd know it, wouldn't be done by the locals and the place would be a dump.

Not to mention the income that is sent back their families would also dry up causing even more hardship in Bangladesh or the Philippines or wherever they're from. Around $USD 100 billion was sent home in 2014 from the Gulf states to all around the world.

 

Anyway, as expats we chose to live and work where we like and have to make the most of where we are. There are benefits and pitfalls but overall, it can be a good life.

If you get the opportunity, you should take it but make sure you have your final interview in country so you can at least see the place 'in the flesh' not from what you read on the world wide web.

As for retirement, I won't be going to South America, I'll be going back home. I'm not doing this stuff for fun and to break even.

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...I don't Google that countries human rights records or anything else other than where they are. If I did that I would limit where I could work...

 

That is probably the first thing I would do, along with checking the corruption perception index. Actually I do it when my 18yo daughter mentions a country she would like to visit. Along with human rights and corruption I also point out gender inequality and sharia law as reasons she should not visit a country.

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That is probably the first thing I would do, along with checking the corruption perception index. Actually I do it when my 18yo daughter mentions a country she would like to visit. Along with human rights and corruption I also point out gender inequality and sharia law as reasons she should not visit a country.

 

Corruption is endemic. As I know every country in the world has had there mega scandals. I can't see how it would effect anyone's travel plans.

 

Gender inequality. I agree that's horrible. It is also possible that the independent free thinking western woman, living in such societies can have a tiny positive impact to local women, if only over time.

 

Human rights. Political killing, indiscriminate jailing, poor treatment of minorities. Well I think even most of us would not know the extent of that. I am not an activist, nor I am I involved. But note through the entire thread, those of us who live or have lived in such countries, Plaz, TC, Pete, Softy, myself, others, have made a conscious decision to live there, largely for personal reasons.

 

While those who have not set foot in the offending countries are the ones voicing complaints.

 

NB. My kids went through the British School of Riyadh and the CIS, Colombo International School from kinder to Year 12 and I got that free. Those kids now in their mid to late 20's parlayed that into very sucessful working careers. If I never set foot in Saudi that never would have happened.

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Now I'm not geting myself killed in the name of a cause, but I reckon to have a good attitude in this area, well above the basic Aussie view, those who have not travelled extensively, would not have a clue about the subject or even the meaning of discrimination.

.

 

That is pretty clear from this thread. And, without wanting to be labelled anti Australian it would be a good thing if people took the time to consider international news sources to see how our country is portrayed overseas. We ARE good, but we are not perfect - something to bear in mind when we start throwing stones.

The old adage, "when in Rome, do as the Romans do" is as relevant today as it ever was.

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The things I'm considering when deciding where to semi retire are many and varied but are largely around weather and cost of living.

 

My biggest consideration would be health care and aged care facilities.

 

It's inevitable that as we get older we will require more access to health care - be it managed, routine or reactive to an emergency. Then if we don't die, chances are we will require more support for our existence - retirement home, nursing home, etc.

 

At that age, I don't want to be suffering just because it was cheaper to buy a cup of coffee (with a free newspaper!) or have to relocate back to Aus.

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So....... the fact that most of the workers are paid pittance in those ME countries "may" be affected simply by the number of foreigners coming in there to find domestic unskilled work (cleaners etc)? If fewer came, then competition would drive prices up?

 

So maybe it's not the ME countries fault?

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Corruption is endemic. As I know every country in the world has had there mega scandals. I can't see how it would effect anyone's travel plans.

 

Gender inequality. I agree that's horrible. It is also possible that the independent free thinking western woman, living in such societies can have a tiny positive impact to local women, if only over time.

 

Human rights. Political killing, indiscriminate jailing, poor treatment of minorities. Well I think even most of us would not know the extent of that. I am not an activist, nor I am I involved. But note through the entire thread, those of us who live or have lived in such countries, Plaz, TC, Pete, Softy, myself, others, have made a conscious decision to live there, largely for personal reasons.

 

While those who have not set foot in the offending countries are the ones voicing complaints.

 

NB. My kids went through the British School of Riyadh and the CIS, Colombo International School from kinder to Year 12 and I got that free. Those kids now in their mid to late 20's parlayed that into very sucessful working careers. If I never set foot in Saudi that never would have happened.

I've kept out of this one, as I'm one of those that hasn't set foot in these countries, but that line can be construed 2 ways.

 

Your way, in that these people have no idea, so should be quiet.

Or maybe it is the fact that they feel strongly about this, so have not gone to those offending countries.

 

I'd think most are probably in the first camp, but there are likely to be a number in the 2nd as well. I was offered work overseas a couple of times on very good money when I was younger. I looked at political stability & safety, and knocked both back.

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My biggest consideration would be health care and aged care facilities.

 

Yes those are also considerations. People might be surprised at the high level of health care available in some countries with a low cost of living. And on the subject of ageing some cultures show more respect towards the elderly than we do in Oz.

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EX.

 

There are several different types of ex pat contract.

 

Married status with benefits accrued over a number of years, spending a good amount of income back to the local economy.

 

Or single status with frequent short vacations, in effect getting out as money as possible in the shortest time. No reference to Softly here, but we came to dislike those people who hated the dam place, yet would extract the money while ripping the place apart.

 

I like to think I contributed something positive back to the country. Money of course is important, but I would still derive enjoyment from living over there,

 

EX.....Probably with Aussie Telecom there in Riyadh, early 90's? But that was a brief period, Aussies got it by underbidding Bell Canada and unfortunately low balled the whole operation, within 3 years the where out and Saudi German Telephone took over, a typical Saudi botch job. The Canadians put in the system and did well with it, the others less so mostly because of financial reasons.

Edited by Kamal2

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So....... the fact that most of the workers are paid pittance in those ME countries "may" be affected simply by the number of foreigners coming in there to find domestic unskilled work (cleaners etc)? If fewer came, then competition would drive prices up?

 

So maybe it's not the ME countries fault?

A pittance in our scale and view. But it can be 5 times or more than what they would earn in their home country. I'm not saying that's fair, but that's the wage and salary market.

 

It's not just the expats who have the hired help. Most 'locals' have maids and often more than one. A driver may take their kids to school but they will drive themselves to the mall in the Cayenne GTS.

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That is probably the first thing I would do, along with checking the corruption perception index. Actually I do it when my 18yo daughter mentions a country she would like to visit. Along with human rights and corruption I also point out gender inequality and sharia law as reasons she should not visit a country.

You may as well stay at home then.

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