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Are cheating and cycling ingrained?


Niseko

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As triathletes we often get the mickey taken out or us from cyclists for a variety of reasons. The reliant on numbers, compression socks, jumping on every new bandwagon and on it goes.

 

I've always thought fight fire with fire, and hit cycling back, and to be fair there is a good argument to suggest cycling and cheating are lifelong bedfellows. The nature of the sport of cycling lends itself to it. the person who saves the most watts wins and takes the glory at the last moment. Where as triathlon came out of a test to see who was the fittest. Sure we miss out on some of the bravery, tactics and all out efforts in cycling, but I've always ranked elite triathletes as having much higher moral ground than cyclists. Sure we all want to win, and there is drafting and doing in tris but it's not accepted and cyclists give the impression they would do ANYTHING to win, and that cheating is just part of the game.

 

Here's an interesting blogpost on how cheating and cycling are so intertwined:

 

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-05-if-cheating-is-normal-in.html

 

All power to triathletes I say!

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A serious answer. I don't think it's something ingrained into the sport. I think it's in heaps of sports! I mean, I see it at my daughters netball games. You see it in soccer, league etc etc. It's pushing the boundaries to get away with as much as you possible can without getting caught. Maybe the boundary in cycling is just set a long long way away?

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This topic causes me as much grief as all the rest out together on this forum.

My opinion is

I think it is fair for people to conclude that certainly in days gone by that cyclist at the pointy end of the field were doping, as they were amongst or beating those that definitely were.

I think cycling has made its own bed in that regards and need to do its best to fix that.

Unfortunately guys like Lance have also taken away the argument that never testing positive = never doped.

I think like almost all topics on here people are entitled to an opinion, be it on cadel, rogers, froome or whoever they wish regardless of nationality, as I have stated above cycling has made it's bed and they need to work hard to convince us otherwise.

Personally I believe in most cases that the benefit of the doubt should be with the athlete. I have no proof of doping or reason to believe that cadel, froome ,wiggins or Wellington are dopers, ( unless performance is the only indicator) but I can see why others may not believe that a sport can be on its way to cleaning itself up and there will still be winners and even exceptional winners when the sport is clean.

 

But Niseko the reason doping topics cause me and the moderators so much drama is the way you can't seem to make a decent argument for your doping allegations without being personal, derogatory or abusive.

 

Take that as a warning if you like.

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You've hit a very sensitive spot there niseko to the extent roxii has threatened you in an effort to shut down free speech.

 

Of course cheating occurs in other sports but this is a triathlon forum with a fair bit of cycling discussion. So cheating in cycling is of interest, not so much in lawn bowls or darts etc.

 

Based on the evidence history cheating in cycling will still be occurring, it's just that testing hasn't caught up with the latest ways.

 

Roxii based on previous cycling history the doping allegations will be determined to be factual and to threaten other posters for saying so is pathetic. Why don't you, Rog etc stop so being so sensitive and look at the hard evidence re cycling cheating. Stop being so defensive regarding cycling and cheating and accept the facts, cycling was and is dirty.

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All sports have cheats. I watched the Champions League final last Sunday and every time a goal is scored they get their shirt off- yellow card. It's against the rules. Tanking in AFL, against the spirit of the sport, Chelsea v Liverpool a month back where Chelsea had an 8 man back line, against the spirit of the sport, basketball and deliberate fouls at the death, league.... And then let's not forget IM Melbourne of NSW Club Champs or Huski.

 

Is it right, no, does it happen, yes. The sports choose not to outlaw it for whatever reason and when that occurs you will always get cheats, there are only so many Ted Macks or US Presidential models where you are punted after 8 years. Our table drank free coffee this morning at a local cafe, perhaps we should have paid like the patrons.

 

Human self interest is what it is, it is not limited to cycling but all walks of life.

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Roxii is shutting down free speech..... Lol.

 

Not the first laugh I've had today but a robust laugh none the less.

 

Can we get T shirts made, maybe a ghostbusters style logo with free speech in the middle. The red ring can have printed in it, Roxii says no to free speech.

 

I'm on the blower to Bono right now, we are going for No 1 in the Uk at Christmas.

 

Lol.

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You've hit a very sensitive spot there niseko to the extent roxii has threatened you in an effort to shut down free speech.

 

.

I think roxi is just having a quite word just to try and keep things civil , so he doesn't get sued and loose his house

Cheers

Ip

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Is that how you read books too Dave, skip to the last sentence, find out who dunnit then make up the rest? Did you even read my post?

ALL, I will say it again ALL my grief on doping threads even threats of legal action have come about from me defending NISEKO and his right to an opinion.

Those who don't complain about his opinion do complain about the way he goes about expressing it. That I can't and won't defend.

I could have saved myself a lot of drama ( even putting friendships in jeopardy) by banning Niseko as soon as I became moderator.

You also have the freedom to express your opinion no matter how stupid or misguided.

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Just do so in a polite, and conscience manner. Generally is not the content which gets people banned/threads cleaned. It's the manner in which people conduct themselves.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

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Remember, in the early days doping was not banned, therefore the competitors who were doping were actually within the rules. From memory, doping only got banned in the 60's.

 

IMHO doping and other forms of cheating certainly still go on in cycling as it does in other sports including triathlon. Cycling's main issue is one of image. There have been so many of the sports heroes have been shown to have been guilty, while loudly protesting their innocence, that it is hard not to think that the current cries of innocence may be the same as those in the past.

 

The way to rebuild that confidence is for samples to be retained and then re-tested when technology can detect what is now impossible to detect and the results come back clean. Cycling can come back with a clean image, but it will have to be seen and proven to be clean over a sustained period of time.

 

If no-one in triathlon cheated, why would we have so many threads about drafting?

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A serious answer. I don't think it's something ingrained into the sport. I think it's in heaps of sports! I mean, I see it at my daughters netball games. You see it in soccer, league etc etc. It's pushing the boundaries to get away with as much as you possible can without getting caught. Maybe the boundary in cycling is just set a long long way away?

 

 

Wow, your daughter must be in an interesting comp!!

 

The most controversial thing at my daughter's games is who gets called for Stepping all the time!

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You've hit a very sensitive spot there niseko to the extent roxii has threatened you in an effort to shut down free speech.

 

Of course cheating occurs in other sports but this is a triathlon forum with a fair bit of cycling discussion. So cheating in cycling is of interest, not so much in lawn bowls or darts etc.

 

Based on the evidence history cheating in cycling will still be occurring, it's just that testing hasn't caught up with the latest ways.

 

Roxii based on previous cycling history the doping allegations will be determined to be factual and to threaten other posters for saying so is pathetic. Why don't you, Rog etc stop so being so sensitive and look at the hard evidence re cycling cheating. Stop being so defensive regarding cycling and cheating and accept the facts, cycling was and is dirty.

some people were not so sensitive when the same unfounded allegations were made against froome and wiggins

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Wow, your daughter must be in an interesting comp!!

 

The most controversial thing at my daughter's games is who gets called for Stepping all the time!

Yeah, that's about the worst that gets called. She's had players reef on her bib to pull her back, elbowed many times (sometimes they get called on it) standing on feet, and once had to come off when a player punched her while running past her. This is under 12's.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

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Wow, your daughter must be in an interesting comp!!

 

The most controversial thing at my daughter's games is who gets called for Stepping all the time!

. My daughters games are insane, might be the grade but holding, deliberate obstruction, some teams, to borrow a basketball term deliberately foul the shooters when they are shooting. I don't understand that though as the shooters generally don't miss, so giving them a second shot is gifting points away. Very dirty game in the higher grades in terms of rule "bending"
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With the number of people on the gear at the gym. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a high number of AG on the gear.

Definitely would agree. It's so common it would be naive to think that a fair few AG's aren't on the juice

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But Niseko the reason doping topics cause me and the moderators so much drama is the way you can't seem to make a decent argument for your doping allegations without being personal, derogatory or abusive.

 

It's pretty crazy that you would warn me about that. As I never start anything personal, derogatory or abusive. In case you haven't been paying attention, the way it goes I drop a truth bomb that upsets some guys because they take it as a personal insult against their hero/favourite deity/favourite food, and they try and whack me back as hard as they can with the spikiest stick they can reach. Then I retaliate in like.

 

I probably should have thicker skin - I get that if you love your breakfast cereal, go to church every Sunday and your biggest hero is a Tour De France winner, I'm probably not going to be your favourite poster, but no need to make personal insults like Trek and Kamahl (Why are people so unkind?) did as soon as they could. You should be warning those farktards not me.

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Did that sound angry? Did not really mean it to, as I'm not.

 

I only started this thread because I saw the blogpost the other day that had been saying the same theory about cycling and cheating being so ingrained that I've posted here a few times and that it was a good discussion to have and to keep it off the threads about the Giro.

 

Is cheating of all types more ingrained in cycling than other sports due to the extreme demands, positive effects of drafting and doping, culture of race fixing etc etc? I reckon it is, but maybe it's the same for all sports? Same in tri?

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Niseko states his mind on cyclists and this annoys people. What is more interesting is that when Niseko goes on the annual cyclist bash (often near the tour), a bunch of people hammer him for making claims without evidence and then post a few days later exactly the same sort of accusations about riders such as Froome and Wiggins.

 

Seems to be okay depending on who your accusing or defending. Don't see his post as a troll as he was linking to an article that discussed a culture of cheating in the sport.

 

Anyhow its all academic as the best and most entertaining years were the Lance, Pantani, Ullrich Virenque, super doped and super entertaining.

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Niseko states his mind on cyclists and this annoys people. What is more interesting is that when Niseko goes on the annual cyclist bash (often near the tour), a bunch of people hammer him for making claims without evidence and then post a few days later exactly the same sort of accusations about riders such as Froome and Wiggins.

 

Seems to be okay depending on who your accusing or defending. Don't see his post as a troll as he was linking to an article that discussed a culture of cheating in the sport.

 

Anyhow its all academic as the best and most entertaining years were the Lance, Pantani, Ullrich Virenque, super doped and super entertaining.

 

Lol. You tell me Froome dopes, I think he probably does. You tell me wiggo dopes, I think he probably doesn't, why because I like wiggo.

 

In reality anyone that has won anything in cycling over the last ten years and a bit has probably doped or been on a team, known about it and failed to report it. That's what the sport has been, that's life. Cadel for instance, might be as clean as, more pure than jesus's mum who was a virgin when she gave birth to our lord and saviour Jesus Christ from her womb, yet how many team mates of his have gone. I can believe Jesus's mum was a virgin, I can believe Cadel never saw any of his team mates dope. I like to see good in people even if if fanciful, I loved Lance right to the end before he betrayed a million cancer sufferers who had put their faith in him, and then suddenly gave up the fight upon hearing Lance was a myth and had lied to them that anything is possible.

 

I love niseko's posts and this is a great topic. Just not a fan of saying x doped unless they are convicted filthy dirty rotten scoundrel spaniard doping cheating scum like contador.

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Roxii - out of curiosity - why do you allow post/threads on cheating/doping based on people's personal opinion without any backup from any creditable source. Isnt that the exact definition of slandering ?

 

Are we waiting for someone to get real pissed and initiate proper lawsuit against the site before people start behaving ?

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In a perfect world I wouldn't but as I stated above it is a cloud that hangs over cycling that the sport has put there itself.

In one of the U.K. Cycling forums that have a whole doping forum. I'd like it not to get to that. If I shut down or delete all mentions of doping I will be accused of denying free speech, if I don't I'm condoning doping.

 

Maybe we need a poll, once and for all , no questions no caveats do we allow doping accusations or not.

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Lots of Kona qualifying AG's on here.. Have any of you been tested? (Not saying anything about you guys just curious how prolific the testing is)

Been twice and raced lots - never been tested for anything. Know lots of people that have been and also don't know any of those that have been tested. I'd add that I don't know anyone that dopes either - maybe I just live in a very quiet part of the world :). Tbh I think unless $$'s are involved or a podium at a WC then testing is pointless in tri's - if people want to cheat to finish MOP then just let them.
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I think if you start restricting what can and can't be discussed you'll start to lose the whole point of a forum. A point of discussion.

 

If you don't like what someone is saying block them or stop reading the thread.

 

Topics like this if discussed on the topic of is cycling engrained with a drug culture could be quite interesting. It's not just drugs specific to cycling it's all sports to a certain degree.

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In a perfect world I wouldn't but as I stated above it is a cloud that hangs over cycling that the sport has put there itself.

In one of the U.K. Cycling forums that have a whole doping forum. I'd like it not to get to that. If I shut down or delete all mentions of doping I will be accused of denying free speech, if I don't I'm condoning doping.

 

Maybe we need a poll, once and for all , no questions no caveats do we allow doping accusations or not.

Free speech and all sounds very good until your receive a legal notice which I'm sure has happened in the past.

 

I think you should introduce a condition of posting here that the views expressed by the poster are entirely their own and the website and their owners takes no responsibilities blah blah (like the news website say when they post contentious topics). Why put your neck on line for unverified conjectures.

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On a sort of related note check out the documentary 'Bigger, Faster, Stronger' it is about steroid and PED use in sport, but looks at it from the perspective of why would someone dope? Without trying to rationalise it looks at the fuzzy line between legal techniques and doping, and why someone would choose to dope.

 

I am staunchly anti-doping, but watching this I could start to see why people would make that leap. In the context of cycling: say you have two cyclists, one on a major team (with a large budget), one on a minor team (with a small budget). The major team spends six months at altitude, increasing their hemocrit and accordingly performance. The other takes EPO and increases their hemocrit and accordingly performance. The physiological outcome is the same, the mechanism is different. One team chooses a legal method the other chooses a banned substance, yet both achieve the same outcome. Should the team with the smaller budget be banned?

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On a sort of related note check out the documentary 'Bigger, Faster, Stronger' it is about steroid and PED use in sport, but looks at it from the perspective of why would someone dope? Without trying to rationalise it looks at the fuzzy line between legal techniques and doping, and why someone would choose to dope.

 

I am staunchly anti-doping, but watching this I could start to see why people would make that leap. In the context of cycling: say you have two cyclists, one on a major team (with a large budget), one on a minor team (with a small budget). The major team spends six months at altitude, increasing their hemocrit and accordingly performance. The other takes EPO and increases their hemocrit and accordingly performance. The physiological outcome is the same, the mechanism is different. One team chooses a legal method the other chooses a banned substance, yet both achieve the same outcome. Should the team with the smaller budget be banned?

Training at altitude is available to all and not 'manufactured' to increase performance.

 

pinkboy

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In the forum guidelines that everyone states they have read upon signing up, the following is stated:

 

 

If you can’t back yourself with proven fact, then don’t post it.

If you are not prepared to identify yourself, refrain from posting

libellous comments.

 

Perhaps the days of gentle persuasion are over and something more formal needs to be put in place.

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You are obviously lacking in same way and you deliberately troll to get a reaction. You then justify your response as you have above. You do it time after time. As I said, you are a boring twat!

and we go back to playing the man not the ball

 

Niseko, please don't rise to this, I enjoying you posts

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