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Lost in transition

Super Bricks - Who does them?

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Agree with Trev on this one. It doesn't have to be a full Tri.

 

We raced the State TTT one year then went straight off the bike for a run (OMG that hurt), and quite a number of times we'd ride from Brisbane to do a fun run or half marathon on the GC. Not only are they great ways to train, but they usually turn into good social events. The race component also adds to the "reality" of it.

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I use to do the Friday night long swim (3 - 4 kms), Saturday morning long ride (130 - 160 kms)/30 minute run then a medium run on Sunday (90 mins or so) a good way to get the body ready for IM. Rather than doing an IM race in say 12 hours, I did a 70% IM in 36 hours. Recovery after was essential.

 

It helped me with the backend of a race with limited training.

 

FM

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I use to do the Friday night long swim (3 - 4 kms), Saturday morning long ride (130 - 160 kms)/30 minute run then a medium run on Sunday (90 mins or so) a good way to get the body ready for IM. Rather than doing an IM race in say 12 hours, I did a 70% IM in 36 hours. Recovery after was essential.

 

It helped me with the backend of a race with limited training.

 

FM

Flanman,

isn't that or something similar almost the standard tri training weekend

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Slightly different brick is 30km bike / 10km run times 3

Again 4-6 weeks out. Key part of this is the last run feels like the 25 to 35km mark of an IM. You are tired and sore. The intensity should be IM, also the 3rd repeat should be same as 1st in terms of time and intensity

Very good way to test nutrition, and mental strenght

My Tri Club also does brick repeats - 60 min Bike / 30 min Run, done up to 4 times.

This session is also great to accommodate lots of different athletes of different speeds and experience. The short course athletes do 2 repeats, 70.3 do 3 repeats and IM do 4 repeats. Because the Ride and Run are based on time, everyone hits transition together and it feels like a group session for everyone.

Only works if you have a place (like Clubrooms) to use as transition. Although I've known people to run this type of session using one of the athletes garage as transition.

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Flanman,

isn't that or something similar almost the standard tri training weekend

 

Apart from the friday night long swim, it usually is. There is also a mental training approach to it as well. Knowing that you have done a number of hours during the week ansd can still knock off a 3/4 IM in 36 hours is great for the body as well as the mind. Approaching it like an extended race has advantages.

 

As for me, well, those distances are just a little shorter now (Classic distance). After all, I am retired.

 

FM

Edited by Flanman

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Hey MackaEvo2 - Are you saying that the last 4 weeks before a long course race you cant gain any benefits from training? I thought go Hammer and Tong until 2 weeks out then let you body recover and build.....and then jump on transitions and fight with someone during your taper because your on edge from not training? :-)

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for who? for example Macca has commented that he does a lot of training leading into a race while Jacobs needs a good taper.

Both of these are elite athletes. Age groupers who might do 15hrs a week of training I don't believe the body is going to gain the physical benefits from these sessions so close to an Ironman. In particular hard run sessions. I know of a group that is planning a 30K run session at race pace this weekend leading up to Melbourne. I think this is too much too close to race day.

Again everyone responds to these sessions differently.

I would be interested to get the likes of AP's thoughts on the average age groupers recovery time from these big sessions and gaining the maximum benefits from them will the appropriate taper to be ready for race day.

I always think what am I going to get out of the session and is this session a) going to benefit me to be at my best on race day and B) does it blend with the rest of the program leading up to race day.

 

 

Everybody is different but I would say most people.

 

By 4 weeks to go you should have done all your really long stand alone sessions (i.e fitness built) and be can look at doing a good combined session to dial in nutrition, pacing etc. I'm not talking about the extreme versions that Ruley has mentioned or the double big day weekends but there is definitely a place for longer bricks once you start easing back from the longer work. I'm pretty sure one of APs classics is a 150km TT and some 2km repeats 4 weeks out and then 100km TT and repeats 3 weeks out then into taper..

 

That's exactly what I did after stealing the idea of him

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This is one of the reasons the brick works or repeats work as they would break the 30km run down into smaller runs that reduce the body stress and aid recovery.

To do the distances 10-12 weeks out would kill most people because they are building distance and endurance. I would struggle to do a meaningful 30km ride / 10km run times 3 12 weeks out. But 4-6 weeks out this is a good session, also it is different from the prior weeks 180km ride, and 30km during the week. It mixes things up a bit, also as Rob said much easier for training buddies who may only join you for 1 repeat, or ride/run/ride. You also get to refuel better as dont have to try and carry so much stuff.

 

 

. Age groupers who might do 15hrs a week of training I don't believe the body is going to gain the physical benefits from these sessions so close to an Ironman. In particular hard run sessions. I know of a group that is planning a 30K run session at race pace this weekend leading up to Melbourne. I think this is too much too close to race day.

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Between 7 and 5 weeks from an event is the "goldilocks" zone(maybe stretch it out to 8-4)... It is in this period where you need to be at your limits, on the brink of destruction.

 

A HIM(as fast as you can go) in the goldilocks period is perfect for an experienced IMer and should be planned as part of the IM build from the start IMO. A super brick would be OK, though personally I wouldn't be able to achieve the same intensity. For a beginner the super brick may be better as the distance/time nutrition training would be more important.

 

I think it is a combination of age and the number of years doing stupidly long bout of exercise that will determine how faster you recover.

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Before my first Ironman (in the dim dark days before the internet, coaches and stuff) the group of 5 of us who entered had no idea what to do. One guy had done some training with a guy who had done IM the year before so he was in charge.

 

Each week we just did bigger and bigger ride/ run bricks on the weekend.

 

Longest was about 200 k ride with about a 35k run off it (stinking hot day too if I remember correctly) , being the weakest runner of the lot I got dropped on the run and was lucky not to get lost as it wasnt in my area.

 

Dont know how good it was physically as it was taking me till about Wed each week to recover, but mentally it was great, we knew from the moment we finished that brick we could finish IM.

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man this is confusing to me.

 

I think the general consensus is that they are good to do but not when to do them - would that be rite.

 

If so, if i'm doing my first IM when would be the safest time to do it. say 8 weeks out and if your knackered it wont matter take 4-5 days off say, and then get back into it, or do it 3-4 weeks out and if your knackered treat the recovery as part of your taper.

 

I was planning on doing something like 2.5/120/18 5 weeks out - now i'm not so sure.

 

what to do what to do

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man this is confusing to me.

 

I think the general consensus is that they are good to do but not when to do them - would that be rite.

 

If so, if i'm doing my first IM when would be the safest time to do it. say 8 weeks out and if your knackered it wont matter take 4-5 days off say, and then get back into it, or do it 3-4 weeks out and if your knackered treat the recovery as part of your taper.

 

I was planning on doing something like 2.5/120/18 5 weeks out - now i'm not so sure.

 

what to do what to do

 

Depends what you want out of the session. Some do big sessions in regards to distance and time (not in terms of effort) to give themselves some confidence going into the event as well as some aerobic benefit.

 

Personally I have never heard of anyone leading up to Ironman and having 4-5 days off because of a big session.

The only reason I can think of you would have time off is because of an injury and forced to do nothing.

 

Like a previous post has said about spreading the distance over a 36hr period... you are better off spreading session out rather then on one hit and taking a few days off.

 

I don't know what training you have done leading up to the session you are talking about however the example previous of 130-160K ride with 30mins off the bike then a 90min run on the sunday is a typical weekend. I think leading upto the event you can do a superbrick session on the saturday then a shorter race effort session on the sunday. I don't like days off as I feel this doesn't allow the same benefits of recovery that easy swims and easy spins on the bike do.

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MackaEVO2 - observation and doing are vastly different beasts. How you execute these things makes a vast difference and they are vastly different depending on the individual. Also i'd take race pace out of it or define it a bit more with some of these sessions. 30km at race pace 4-5 weeks out is not going to be that hard if you are taking 2h-2:45 to complete it and have been running 2h long runs each week for the last 3 months. Very different if thats 4 hours for you.
Also ironman race pace in the scheme of it is bloody slow. Even for the quicker runners its still 4min-4:15 km's. Doing 2 hours of 4 minute km for me is a solid session but 24-36 hours later i'm normal. Its still a lot slower than i'd run for a straight out race over that distance or a half marathon.

Everyone has to assess what they need out of a session as you've suggested and what the pro's and con's are. let these be done on your own indivdual circumstances and with the help of good advice from proven sources with results. Acting upon fear drummed into you by someone off a forum who's race history you dont know or some old guy at your club who "used to do ironman" is not always going to be the best.
you should know inside of you what you are ready for by what you have done, how you handled it, pulled up and how you bounced back. If your brain says its crazy well it probably is for you, and if you havent got all the little build ups to it and reference points well you need to go sort these out, see how they feel, how you respond etc, then after that and you get back to this point you may work out you are ready and you need them, or you may not.
Inserting a crazy long brick because of an idea when you haven't built towards it is not smart. However if you are a long way out from a race and feel you'd like to try them, build your way upwards...
for those that complete a low or mid 4h half ironman well then a half iron distance training day might be a good starting point done in 5-5h30. This would be completely absurd for someone who has to belt themselves to finish a half in 6-7h and they might be better doing their long brick as an olympic distance practice run and taking 30-40 minutes longer than they would on race day.

 

As you've said doing a session that knocks you out for 3-4 days afterwards is too much and I agree. I'm actually anti racing a half in the build up for me as although i can knock out some big bricks, if I have my foot on the gas for 4and a bit hours i know i'm leveled from anything descent for 7-14 days and that wrecks my build more than it helps. For me i'm better racing and OD or a few sprints in the lead up and losing half a day to 2 days tops.

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OK, after our base buidling we have a 13 week plan leading into IM Oz this year, 3 week build 1 week recovery, 3 week build 1 week recovery 3 week build then 2 week taper. We do our long run mid week, longish swim Saturday and recovery then a largish brick Sunday. Our bricks alternate between bike intervals and steady pace run one week to steady pace ride and interval runs the following. The distance of each session build as we progress to week 9 or 10 (recovery weeks are slightly shorter with less intensity ie no intervals for bike or run). Longest session is 6:30 bike and 18 x 1k run repeats) Example, this sunday is 5hr ride followed by 12 x 1k race pace intervals, taking in nutrition and rest depend on your chosen pace...if you've tried to go for a quick time you'll find out by the 6th or 7th interval and we need to adjust the ego. The race pace with nutrition is based on same distance as most aid stations at races. 4 or 5 weeks out from the race we also do a race pace simulation event with 3k swim, 100ish bike and 20k run. Everything during the simulation is calculated, we weigh in before and after the swim, during the ride a number of times (the bike is a looped course) and every 4k on the run (again a 4 k loop), everything we consume be it water, sports drinks gels etc are recorded and at the end of the day we look at weight loss verse what we've taken in including total calaries and carbohydrates. Would surprise you what we see with some of our newer (and some returning) athletes regarding actual weight loss. If anyone is interested in doing the simulation day we do it at the Woongoolba pool between Yatala and Jacobs Well. This is our 3rd or 4th year of following this plan, most people have found improvements year on year though there have been some failures also. What we find is that the new guys doing IM for the first time struggle physically a bit early on though come good by week 7 or 8 then start getting the mental demons playing in their heads for a few weeks, when they get through the tough sessions it helps with the mental demons and motivation.

 

And why don't we race more? Pretty much cost. If there is a short race ie this weekend a few will do it and then train afterwards to get the weekend distance up. Its not really that simple if you don't have a CA licence though I am planning a few crits between now and Port Mac "just for fun" lol.

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Depends what you want out of the session. Some do big sessions in regards to distance and time (not in terms of effort) to give themselves some confidence going into the event as well as some aerobic benefit.

 

Personally I have never heard of anyone leading up to Ironman and having 4-5 days off because of a big session.

The only reason I can think of you would have time off is because of an injury and forced to do nothing.

 

Like a previous post has said about spreading the distance over a 36hr period... you are better off spreading session out rather then on one hit and taking a few days off.

 

I don't know what training you have done leading up to the session you are talking about however the example previous of 130-160K ride with 30mins off the bike then a 90min run on the sunday is a typical weekend. I think leading upto the event you can do a superbrick session on the saturday then a shorter race effort session on the sunday. I don't like days off as I feel this doesn't allow the same benefits of recovery that easy swims and easy spins on the bike do.

You have some fairly strong opinions on this stuff. For context, what's your IM background?
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There's a lot of posts with all sorts of distances and combinations - the best focus to add to whatever brick session you're going to choose is a strong focus on recovery procedures -" feeding - nutrition - massage - acupuncture - sleep patterns " - this is where the gains are made :smile1:

 

Long bricks without a strong focus on recovery will be like adding bricks to your back pack :scared:

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These sessions are a fantastic way to condition your musculature for the demands of the Ironman event. They need to be specific to the individual and placed appropriately within your training plan.

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Give me a 5hr solid ride Sat / 2hr solid run Sun any day. Specific, tough, simple, effective.

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I plan on doing 4-5 30min easy run/3.25hour bike/ 2 hour runs leading up to Port within the last 10-12 weeks. I would swim instead of the easy run but pools don't open to 9am here (Bowral). The bike and run are at IM effort so get a heap of confidence from them. Have the Sunday off and back into normal training on Monday. I don't find it takes too much out of me. 1st one tomorrow should be a nice tester to see where the fitness is.

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You have some fairly strong opinions on this stuff. For context, what's your IM background?

 

2 Ironmans and probably 20-30 half's.

4:18 for a 70.3

 

People who know me say i'm strongly opinionated about almost anything

 

However I like to think most of my posts on this thread were to help the few who had questions or concerns about doing such sessions

Edited by MackaEvo2

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2 Ironmans and probably 20-30 half's.

4:18 for a 70.3

 

People who know me say i'm strongly opinionated about almost anything

 

However I like to think most of my posts on this thread were to help the few who had questions or concerns about doing such sessions

Cheers.

Not saying you weren't helpful, just wasn't familiar with what you had been up to. I guess over the years when I've been taking advice from posters, I've usually got some idea of their background.

There are a lot of armchair advisors around here.

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Cheers.

Not saying you weren't helpful, just wasn't familiar with what you had been up to. I guess over the years when I've been taking advice from posters, I've usually got some idea of their background.

There are a lot of armchair advisors around here.

 

No worries. I know there are plenty of guys on here with more knowledge then me and better athletes then myself. At the same time in my opinion the best athletes don't necessarily give the best advice when it comes to first time age groupers getting ready for a triathlon.

The best advice again in my opinion (can often be) someone who has been in your shoes. eg an age grouper who may have done there first ironman in the last few years, who has has a similar work load to juggle, perhaps similar age, kids etc. This person has an understanding of where your coming from and trying to get to. Again being a young guy with doesn't work much and no kids I can't fully understand those life responsibilities. I can only give the knowledge and experience I have had.

Best of luck out there

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Tomorrow (Sunday 23rd) the bulk of our squad training for Port in 10 weeks will do a 4hr aerobic ride followed by a 17km run loop - the whole workout will be done at 80-90% of a perfect day's pace at Port - the group will stay together on the bike until a predetermined point where the young studs will be set free to ride home and start the run

 

The run tends to split into groups of 2-4 people as they settle into their own pace

 

It's an endurance building exercise - and a rehearsal of feeding and hydrating plans - the same run was done off a tough 5hr bike two weeks ago on a very hot day - this run is intended to be a confidence builder :smile1:

 

Monday is treated as a rest day with an optional swim squad on Mon night

 

Tuesday will be a swim squad which is usually 3,500-4,000m and the intensity is adjusted to suit what has been done on the weekend - next Tuesday will be 90% aerobic/strength work - the guys will do an aerobic 40min run after the swim - and Tuesday evening is an early night (no training for most)

 

Wednesday is usually 2-3hrs of aerobic cycling with a couple of hill efforts close to the end - Wed night a 1hr optional swim squad (all aerobic work)

 

Thursday is swim speed and WT intervals followed by a run --- by Thursday everybody is over the impact of the Sunday brick - this is when swim time trials or high intensity efforts are likely to be included :smile1:

 

By having Sunday and Thursday peaks in volume or intensity with aerobic endurance work in between the athletes are able to bring their best to the session - they focus on recovery feeding after each session as though they were professional athletes - this is where the results come from :smartarse:

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Tomorrow (Sunday 23rd) the bulk of our squad training for Port in 10 weeks will do a 4hr aerobic ride followed by a 17km run loop - the whole workout will be done at 80-90% of a perfect day's pace at Port - the group will stay together on the bike until a predetermined point where the young studs will be set free to ride home and start the run

 

The run tends to split into groups of 2-4 people as they settle into their own pace

 

It's an endurance building exercise - and a rehearsal of feeding and hydrating plans - the same run was done off a tough 5hr bike two weeks ago on a very hot day - this run is intended to be a confidence builder :smile1:

 

Monday is treated as a rest day with an optional swim squad on Mon night

 

Tuesday will be a swim squad which is usually 3,500-4,000m and the intensity is adjusted to suit what has been done on the weekend - next Tuesday will be 90% aerobic/strength work - the guys will do an aerobic 40min run after the swim - and Tuesday evening is an early night (no training for most)

 

Wednesday is usually 2-3hrs of aerobic cycling with a couple of hill efforts close to the end - Wed night a 1hr optional swim squad (all aerobic work)

 

Thursday is swim speed and WT intervals followed by a run --- by Thursday everybody is over the impact of the Sunday brick - this is when swim time trials or high intensity efforts are likely to be included :smile1:

 

By having Sunday and Thursday peaks in volume or intensity with aerobic endurance work in between the athletes are able to bring their best to the session - they focus on recovery feeding after each session as though they were professional athletes - this is where the results come from :smartarse:

Take note this is very good, one of Pitman's gold posts.

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Give me a 5hr solid ride Sat / 2hr solid run Sun any day. Specific, tough, simple, effective.

Rog do you do any bricks. To me running off bike 24hrs after riding doesn't seem specific. I think at least some long bricks in a program improve a mara off the bike

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