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Toolish

Ironman - 10 hours

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Racing often, weather it be sprint/Olympic or 70.3, get out there, rip in and then work out from your results where you need improvement and repeat...... That was the way I worked for my first three seasons

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Torbjorn Sindballe rode 4:21:57 hours riding 300 watts fro the first half and 273 for the second riding at 75-77 IF FTP around 4.5 and an under biker. Could the ten hour person get away with a bit less than 4?

 

Generalization, but a good ball park target for someone without a strong background in swim or run. You won't find many sub 10 athletes (except for the ones who draft their arses off) far from the 4w/kg FTP and ~2.8w/kg race power.

 

FTP around 4w/kg, race around 70% IF, therefore race at about 2.8w/kg. Racing an IM at 4w/kg would be what the strong male Pros ride (I.e. FTP around 5w/kg).

 

Be a super swimmer and you can get away with a bit less. Be a super runner and 1h swimmer and you could get away with a fair bit less. Be super aerodynamic and you can ge away with a bit less again.

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One more question, someone mentioned aiming for an FTP of 4W/kg for sub-10, what % of FTP do you race at?

FTP just under 4w/kg. An average aero position.

 

If I have put in the kms in training, it's cold on race day, then about 73% was my best.

 

It the training hadn't quite been there, then a couple of % less.

 

If it was hotter (I didn't do well in heat) then a few percent less again.

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As a back of a packer this is a massive goal for me, and I know it is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question, but here goes.

 

If an athlete wanted to go sub 10 @ Ironman Melbourne what sort of targets should you be aiming for in training.

 

Looking at results from 2012 most people around that time swam around 55-60 min, rode between 5:00 and 5:15and ran 3:30 to 4:00.

 

So in training what sort of metrics would one be aiming for. More so where should you be at the start of a 16 week build.

 

Generally get weight down to 'racing weight' whatever that may be.

 

Swimming : Is it as simple as being able to swim 4km in the pool in 55 mins, I have heard people talk of 100 repeats on 1:30 or similar before.

 

Riding : Get an FTP or 3.5 w/kg or something like that, then work on being able to hold IM pace?

 

Running : No idea how to measure this one. 20 x 1km repeats @ 4:15 or something maybe?

 

I am looking at racing it in 2015 so it is 18 odd months away, so looking at the long term plan and ideas. Any input more than welcome.

 

Hi Toolish,

 

We have had 20+ athletes break 10 hours, and each athlete did this in a different fashion, depending upon their strengths/weaknesses etc.

 

Based on your times in the post above;

 

The swim is a pace of 1:30/100m with a wetsuit, no tumble turns, and in the open water.

The bike is a pace of 35kph

The run is a pace of 5:00/km.

 

You would likely need to be around 3.5 watts/kg to ride that time in the Ironman, depending on the course.

 

If your speed is adequate, then as AP described, the most important aspect of your training will be ensuring that you have the necessary strength and aerobic fitness to hold the above paces for 10 hours. Base your training sets around these goals.

 

Pete

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weight has nothing to do with it. in terms of sub 90kgs. power to weight is key. plenty of examples of huge units going fast over long distances.

 

I think pete has nailed it in terms of weekly consistency, and spending as much time as you can training the speed and distance that is required to go sub 10. it might take, like speedy said, a few gos to get the pacing and nutrition right - but a sub 10 is the kind of goal the very motivated triathlete can realistically achieve without the kind of background and skill set the shorter distances require

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Hi Toolish,

 

We have had 20+ athletes break 10 hours, and each athlete did this in a different fashion, depending upon their strengths/weaknesses etc.

 

Based on your times in the post above;

 

The swim is a pace of 1:30/100m with a wetsuit, no tumble turns, and in the open water.

The bike is a pace of 35kph

The run is a pace of 5:00/km.

 

You would likely need to be around 3.5 watts/kg to ride that time in the Ironman, depending on the course.

If your speed is adequate, then as AP described, the most important aspect of your training will be ensuring that you have the necessary strength and aerobic fitness to hold the above paces for 10 hours. Base your training sets around these goals.

 

Pete

Gee's that a lot of people of the street going sub 10.... How many were under 90kgs?

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weight has nothing to do with it. in terms of sub 90kgs. power to weight is key. plenty of examples of huge units going fast over long distances.

 

 

Think you're feeding the chooks now.

 

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/events/asiapac/ironman/western-australia/results.aspx#axzz2evDpcwOc

 

There you go, WA results last year as Melb's swim was short, tell me how many of the sub10's were under 90kgs....

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Not sure, but it would be just as many who were under 100kg

Maybe, there will be under 100kg guys that will crack 10hrs in the right conditions on the right course, ie melbourne, Busso, the old Forster. I'm saying if you are under 90kgs, train consistently and properly, there are no excuses not to break 10 assuming your race goes right.

 

Look at Mauros results, too many people not for it to be very possible.

Edited by Oompa Loompa

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So if you're over 90kgs what's the no excuses cut off?

 

There's not many people going sub 10hr at 90kg because for most people (not all) who are relatively fit 90kgs == fat.

 

Basically what you are saying is that there's not many fat people going sub 10, which seems to make sense.

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BTW COPPOCK, Xavier is well over 90kgs and just did a lazy 4h12m at Mooloolaba.

 

He's about your height and his weight doesn't seem to slow him down much, even on the run.

Edited by Rog

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BTW COPPOCK, Xavier is well over 90kgs and just did a lazy 4h12m at Mooloolaba.

 

He's about your height and his weight doesn't seem to slow him down much, even on the run.

Great athlete. Love the bloke.

 

Look, guess its a bit like treks sub 13 thing, I just think if you're under 90kgs, train properly, and I don't mean doing the hours, but train properly, there should be no excuses.

 

I just can't see for the life of me why if someone is under that weight an the stars align its not going to break it. Sure if they are fat 89kgs, they might not, but if their a fat 89kgs they haven't trained properly.

 

1 - 5 - 4...... If your weak in one discipline, add an subtract between them.

 

Tyler Hamilton spoke about weight in his book, saying its more important than epo in cycling, that will magnify out with th run as well.

 

I'm arragant, I admit that but I see so many people doing it in these parts, even hack age groupers in their 50's that have toiled year in year out and got there.

 

Anyone remember plazbot.

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So if you're over 90kgs what's the no excuses cut off?

 

There's not many people going sub 10hr at 90kg because for most people (not all) who are relatively fit 90kgs == fat.

 

Basically what you are saying is that there's not many fat people going sub 10, which seems to make sense.

the last line says it - have a look at pics of over 90kgs people in an ironman....there is generous girth...

 

btw...triathlon at a sub 10 level isn't for people who aren't disciplined enought to be lean. darts might be more their thing

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I raced Port at 92kg. At least I know now why I didn't go sub 10.

Thanks for clearing that up Oompa, I thought it had something to do with my training.

 

89kg will be my aim for next year - that should sort out the extra 56 minutes :)

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Very interesting Izbones, couple of questions:

 

Were you coached and had set sessions?

Hour many hours a week were you doing at peak load?

Why did you blow on the run? Too hard on the bike?

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the last line says it - have a look at pics of over 90kgs people in an ironman....there is generous girth...

 

btw...triathlon at a sub 10 level isn't for people who aren't disciplined enought to be lean. darts might be more their thing

Hang on, you know a bloke that went sub 10 at port this year with a double chin..... Think he went sub 9.30.

 

He is also looking fit as now, though I dunno about the latte sippin thing during the ride.

 

I think we agree on this, you do the work, the stars align, you get the result.

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Hang on, you know a bloke that went sub 10 at port this year with a double chin..... Think he went sub 9.30.

 

He is also looking fit as now, though I dunno about the latte sippin thing during the ride.

 

I think we agree on this, you do the work, the stars align, you get the result.

yes, that bloke was an itu star and is one of the most talented blokes this area has produced. in fact never got to the level that was possible for him.

 

yes, i do agree with the work, incident free build up, couple of years of devotion etc etc

 

What i don't agree with is your premise about 90 kgs + being the inhibitor - cause it irks you that you can't get faster because of your lifestyle choices. with respect mate :)

Edited by Coach@triathlon

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So if you're over 90kgs what's the no excuses cut off?

 

There's not many people going sub 10hr at 90kg because for most people (not all) who are relatively fit 90kgs == fat.

 

Basically what you are saying is that there's not many fat people going sub 10, which seems to make sense.

Wanted to answer this before but had to go to the pub.

 

Look 90kgs is the rough cut off. You make good point re my size, thats how I get the 90k.... I know if I hit that weight, well 89.9, I will go sub 10 on the right course with the right weather. I figure there are few people bigger than me doing the sport (frame wise) and that's how I get that number. If you smaller than my frame, and you train properly, you will weigh heaps less than sub 90. I youre a fat 87kgs, unless your "special", you arn't going to get it. But if you are a little bloke , say 5'10 or something, when you get fit, you are going to be heaps less than 90 if you're fair dinkum.

 

Yes, people don't go sub 10 at less than 90kg because they are fat, I agree with that. That's what I'm saying

 

Yes, fat or heavy people are going to struggle. I'm saying if you're 6'4" an get under 90kgs, you are going to go sub 10 - therefore anyone smaller than that should also do that.

 

Ill discipline is a factor for most.

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the last line says it - have a look at pics of over 90kgs people in an ironman....there is generous girth...

 

btw...triathlon at a sub 10 level isn't for people who aren't disciplined enought to be lean. darts might be more their thing

Last time I played darts Coach@, I ended up with a dart sticking out the top of my foot.

 

 

n.b. I had consumed quite a lot of Bundy.

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yes, that bloke was an itu star and is one of the most talented blokes this area has produced. in fact never got to the level that was possible for him.

 

yes, i do agree with the work, incident free build up, couple of years of devotion etc etc

 

What i don't agree with is your premise about 90 kgs + being the inhibitor - cause it irks you that you can't get faster because of your lifestyle choices. with respect mate :)

It doesn't irk me at all. I admit the lifestyle choices, I've been to the pub all arvo, i choose to work in a 24/ 6 operation. I simply don't want it bad enough. If I make the lifestyle choices and get sub that number, I crack 10. I see it as that simple. If I can do that, anyone should be able too. You know im arrogant, but I see it as that simple for me, therefore it is that simple for everyone. That's my point, sub 10 is there for anyone (well most, like I said above there are exceptions for very rule). You train properly, you do the work, the results follow. Maybe not year 1 but if you're rote about it, I will come

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Wanted to answer this before but had to go to the pub.

 

Look 90kgs is the rough cut off. You make good point re my size, thats how I get the 90k.... I know if I hit that weight, well 89.9, I will go sub 10 on the right course with the right weather. I figure there are few people bigger than me doing the sport (frame wise) and that's how I get that number. If you smaller than my frame, and you train properly, you will weigh heaps less than sub 90. I youre a fat 87kgs, unless your "special", you arn't going to get it. But if you are a little bloke , say 5'10 or something, when you get fit, you are going to be heaps less than 90 if you're fair dinkum.

 

Yes, people don't go sub 10 at less than 90kg because they are fat, I agree with that. That's what I'm saying

 

Yes, fat or heavy people are going to struggle. I'm saying if you're 6'4" an get under 90kgs, you are going to go sub 10 - therefore anyone smaller than that should also do that.

 

Ill discipline is a factor for most.

So have you gone sub ten before or not?

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It doesn't irk me at all. I admit the lifestyle choices, I've been to the pub all arvo, i choose to work in a 24/ 6 operation. I simply don't want it bad enough. If I make the lifestyle choices and get sub that number, I crack 10. I see it as that simple. If I can do that, anyone should be able too. You know im arrogant, but I see it as that simple for me, therefore it is that simple for everyone. That's my point, sub 10 is there for anyone (well most, like I said above there are exceptions for very rule). You train properly, you do the work, the results follow. Maybe not year 1 but if you're rote about it, I will come

understand all that.

 

but you're not coming from a place of experience. your comments are observational, hypothetical and speculative - from your point of view.

 

the people that have gone sub 10 could probably shed more light on what it takes and whether your theory has weight

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So have you gone sub ten before or not?

No, 10'50 something at 98kgs on running once a week. That's why I know that if I crack 90kgs at 6'4" i break 10, therefore anyone can do it.

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understand all that.

 

but you're not coming from a place of experience. your comments are observational, hypothetical and speculative - from your point of view.

 

the people that have gone sub 10 could probably shed more light on what it takes and whether your theory has weight

Massive load of experience, I understand weight and its effects better than most. Ive seen people go sub 10 that many would say never should. Again, look at the results of the people that go sub 10 and what they weigh. No speculation, its fact.

 

Same for breaking 28 minutes for running 10k.

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n = 1 and busso, add an hour ;)

That's what I'm saying re courses and weather. I've done Busso in the same year slower than port too. Depends on the day.

 

You also shouldn't do two or three ironmans in a year.

 

And Melbourne looks softer than Busso if the weathers right .

 

And before someone jumps, no ironman is soft.

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That's what I'm saying re courses and weather. I've done Busso in the same year slower than port too. Depends on the day.

 

You also shouldn't do two or three ironmans in a year.

 

And Melbourne looks softer than Busso if the weathers right .

 

And before someone jumps, no ironman is soft.

50 minutes is a long time and 10.50 is your pb on a flat course in busso in good conditions.

 

gonna find a forum on climbing mt everest and tell them it can be done in 5 hours without oxygen. soft cocks

Edited by Coach@triathlon

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gonna find a forum on climbing mt everest and tell them it can be done in 5 hours without oxygen. soft cocks

No. I've been to 5600mtrs.

 

Nothing soft about anything over 2500mtrs, 5hrs up without oxygen ain't possible.

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I've never been 100kg. I admit its a lifestyle choice. But if I did I know that if was 100 kg and worked a 42/16 operation I could easily do 10:30. Id only run once a fortnight too. Pure speculation of course, but I'm saying if I could be 100kg then 10:30 would be easy and any one could do it.. How come, since you weren't even that heavy, you could only manage 10:50?Wonder what has happened to previous kona qualifiers and participants, who have turned up to busso in the passed weighed in under 90kgs and failed to crack 10?

A. They were not "fit".

B. They had a bad day.

 

Mate if you were 100kgs, and me 105kgs, I'd smash you to bits on any ironman course in the world, pure speculation of course but you know I'm right.

 

I'm friggin amazed that you folk are finding excuses for non performance. If you want it, train properly. There endeth the lesson.

 

Edited to add.... It would prove nothing

Edited by Oompa Loompa

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No. I've been to 5600mtrs.

 

Nothing soft about anything over 2500mtrs, 5hrs up without oxygen ain't possible.

again with the speculation!

 

maybe you need to go out and do something significant and speak from a position of experience :)

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Not sure if I'm agreeing with Oompa or not,but on the weight thing.

 

If you're are training properly for a sub 10 then;

 

1. You won't be >90kg's

or

2. If you're >90kg's you haven't trained properly for a sub 10.

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Not sure if I'm agreeing with Oompa or not,but on the weight thing.

 

If you're are training properly for a sub 10 then;

 

1. You won't be >90kg's

or

2. If you're >90kg's you haven't trained properly for a sub 10.

lol.

 

we have a fat guy, who doesn't have the fortitude to do the work, telling people they are soft if they don't go sub 10 hours- as long as they train hard enough?

 

what am i missing here?

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lol.

 

we have a fat guy, who doesn't have the fortitude to do the work, telling people they are soft if they don't go sub 10 hours- as long as they train hard enough?

 

what am i missing here?

*edit - I think I misread what Coach@ was saying.

Edited by nealo

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No, 10'50 something at 98kgs on running once a week. That's why I know that if I crack 90kgs at 6'4" i break 10, therefore anyone can do it.

It's a BMI of 26.3 (98kg) vs 23.9 (89kg). Obviously a limiter of BMI is that it doesn't differentiate between fat/muscle but you can see the point there...

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Not sure if I'm agreeing with Oompa or not,but on the weight thing.If you're are training properly for a sub 10 then;1. You won't be >90kg'sor2. If you're >90kg's you haven't trained properly for a sub 10.

Yes

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No, 10'50 something at 98kgs on running once a week. That's why I know that if I crack 90kgs at 6'4" i break 10, therefore anyone can do it.

Tell that to the people under 90kg who failed to go sub. 10 despite following a qualified coaches program.

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Your "under 90kg" is so subjective it's ridiculous.

 

You at 90kg (6ft 4) and me at 90kg (5ft 10) are worlds apart. I'm around 86kg now and I know for sure that unless I force fed myself even more chocolate than I eat now, there is no way I can do the training needed to go sub 10 and stay at the weight I currently am, let alone put another 5kg on.

 

And I do speak from experience.

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No what I know is you'd have another excuse.

Plenty of people like you around, always keep hold of a crutch so there's always an excuse not to perform at 'what they could do ' and claim their actual underperformance was still miraculous despite all the things they didn't do.

Good on ya for doing a 10:50. Fair effort I say but at the end if the day that's all you've proven to do.

I've already said its not important enough for me. I don't measure my self worth through triathlon.

 

Think it's a great sport for people as they get older, can go in straight lines and it doesn't matter if you do 7'56" and come second or 16'59 last across the line, you still are a loser. Lol

 

No excuses buddy, you're the one trotting out excuses for non performance, for not being your best. I have no idea why the concept of someone training properly, being under 90k and getting a good weather day on a good course is not a recipe for sub 9 isn't just an accepted part of the sport. Ok, if they're 6'6" and 89kgs, they may not make it but I reckon they'd give it a good shot.

Edited by Oompa Loompa

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so oompa...how about giving a sub 10 and sub 90 a red hot crack?...seriously mate.. plenty of people happy to help you through the journey

. I was 2kgs in front of where I wanted to be in February when I broke my wrist, I would have hit 92k easily and I would have given it a red hot crack. I'll know by January, its just how much work gets in the way but hence entering a few races to overcome that in the best way possible.

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