Jump to content
Toolish

Ironman - 10 hours

Recommended Posts

Ap can you explain how training by hr is going to help someone still working on their top end speed? Ei those still working on getting their base times down for individual legs. I am interested in it but sceptical for people wanting to improve their current capability. I can understand for the guys at the pointy end who have the base speed but need to learn how to maintain it but what about for the rest of us?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well when you say hard - I rarely ever let my HR go over 153 - if I was out running and came to a hill where my HR went higher than 153 - I walked till it came back to 150 then ran again - on the bike I geared down and spun the gears over the hills - I did a lot of climbing at 150-153 - when you say train hard - as you get fitter you have to work to stay at 150-153

 

My resting was around 38-40 and my max was 185 - I may have run track sessions once a week for about 18 weeks of the year in blocks of 6 weeks - all 400m efforts but never flat out - just 2-5 seconds faster than my 5km TT pace

 

I ran up to 3hrs on only a dessert spoon of olive oil and water - I would carry money or gels in case I needed fuel but would rarely use them

 

But when I raced I would just go as hard as I could without going over 153HR - but I was fit and couldn't go near that on the run - I just ran as fast as my legs would carry me - always focussed on technique :smile1: I never race with a watch

 

The guys who are plotting everything with power meters and GPS are totally on the wrong track - look at PJ's performance either last year in Hawaii or yesterday at Mooloolaba (no need for GPS or power here) :shy:

Al - surely its horses for courses though, one mans bane might be a power meter, but it might be another mans saviour.

 

Good story though re heart rates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It seems odd then that he is sponsored by Quarq, races with a Garmin on his stem and put his Kona 2012 power file up for analysis at TrainingPeaks.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/ironman-world-championship-kona/2012.aspx

It's not binary. Using a power meter doesn't necessarily mean being a slave to the numbers. It's not a crutch. It's a tool that can provide valuable information at times.

And does alot of his interval sessions on a computrainer.

 

There tools to aid your training not define you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for the input, has given me a lot to chew on. I did not give many specifics about my situation because I wanted it to be a more general thread than a specific about me thread.

 

The reason I was asking about training metrics is because I was thinking about spending a block of time focussed on each discipline to get it to where it needs to be before moving to the next i.e. spend some time working on swimming until I can do 30 x 100 coming in on 1:40 with 10 sec rest, once I can do that move to a bike focus and just try to maintain swimming. Once I get ftp to 3.5 watt/kg focus more on running and work that way until it gets time to build for the race.

 

I might revise that to a rotating block type set up. I have just found that by trying to improve all 3 disciplines at once I am getting no where.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did 4:50 about 6 months before I did around 10:15. Within another 12 months I did sub 4:25 about 6 weeks before going sub 10:00. Id be looking for 4:15 next time im ready.No idea if these times are typical.

Yeah, but were you sub 90kgs? If you weren't, then the course must have been short

 

:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looking back at Oompa's post that started all this, I'm kind of leaning to agree with him. While he makes no statement on "training properly", he does quantify 3 x 3 sessions per week. For a lot of the disenters on here, that would be a big improvement.

The big factor in the post was "if you have any sort of athleticism". This is the clincher. Without any athleticism, you either won't do it, or you'll have to put in much more effort than others to get there. I had "athleticism" when I came into the sport. Not a lot, but I was "good" at a couple of the disciplines; certainly not great. I put in the requisite apprenticeship of 5 years before tackling my first IM. I bombed. I put in 12 months of effort to do a good IM & managed 9:25.

 

There was no special talent. There was no secret formula. To quote AP "I trained hard, and I raced harder".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow... I've been away for a few days and it seems like the thread has turned into a discussion about the maximum weight you can be and still break 10 hours for an Ironman.

While most of you are probably thinking that Oompa is a bit of a Wally, I happen to think he's a genius... I only weighed 59kg the last time I broke 10 hours in an Ironman, so apparently I can afford to put on 40kg or so before it prevents me from achieving that magical milestone.

Edited by Go Easy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That ain't no "magic milestone" till you're 50.

Will be there in a few months.

 

Breaking 10 hours as a 50 Year Old is probably a decent long term goal (dream or hope).

 

Thanks for the idea Ex.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason I was asking about training metrics is because I was thinking about spending a block of time focussed on each discipline to get it to where it needs to be before moving to the next i.e. spend some time working on swimming until I can do 30 x 100 coming in on 1:40 with 10 sec rest, once I can do that move to a bike focus and just try to maintain swimming. Once I get ftp to 3.5 watt/kg focus more on running and work that way until it gets time to build for the race.

Sounds like a fair plan but don't neglect your long bike and long run while you focus on your swimming. If you can only do one run a week then make it your long run. Don't overdo it but gradually build to a distance that at least leaves you comfortably tired. You need to get very used to running when you are tired - but beware of injuries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AP, how close does one need to be to comment?

10:30 not close at all

10:10 getting closer

10:05 there was a head wind, >40c......, I had a broken leg....and I'm not using that as excuse, but is that close enough :-)

 

in the spirit of full disclosure, 10:40s is as close as I've been ,.... and I knew It'd be unlikely that I could get much closer. so no advice from me.... :-)

 

I'm amazed that anyone at 90kg ever did sub 10, with 2 sub 10s at forster and too many sub 10:10's (4 I think) I raced at 65-68 kgs at 5'8".

 

For me the day usually looked like 58 swim 5'15 ride and 3'30 ish run, wondering if I can retrospectively takes some time off the bike for all the aero/ training benefits that I missed out on?, a proper tri fit, aero helmets, power meters, aero frames and better wheels than by Gipemmes (Shamal knock offs)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Will be there in a few months.

 

Breaking 10 hours as a 50 Year Old is probably a decent long term goal (dream or hope).

 

Thanks for the idea Ex.

So will I. It's my goal as well. I've been knocked down with injury for the past year, & I was well on track to do it, but I think if I can get moving again by the end of the year I may just have a shot at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So will I. It's my goal as well. I've been knocked down with injury for the past year, & I was well on track to do it...

 

Yep, I know that feeling!

 

Good luck with it - the injury & the 10 hours.

 

It's great to have a goal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Fatrunner

I did a 9:4x at 92 kilos. Fuelling is the fine line for heavy dudes. Probably got it right once racing and maybe half a dozen in training when going long. Sheer size in the wind also takes away from the power advantage of heavier cyclists. I still claim that anyone (male) with enough time to train and avoid or manage injuries under say 40 can go sub 10. I did triathlon for 18 years before getting a decent training run together. Three years before sub 10 I did a 6:2x half and a 3:0x Olympic. Your experience may vary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Factor' on this Forum has gone sub 9 at 193cm and 90+kgs.

 

I'm no far off 90 kegs either - he's giving me hope.

 

Agreed we are more the exception than the rule but having big ass, big quads, hammy's and calves can be helpful on the bike (especially on flat courses) but they do hold you back to some extent on the run. It's the allure of tris - something gives you an advantage in one leg and takes away in another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'Factor' on this Forum has gone sub 9 at 193cm and 90+kgs.

 

I'm no far off 90 kegs either - he's giving me hope.

 

Agreed we are more the exception than the rule but having big ass, big quads, hammy's and calves can be helpful on the bike (especially on flat courses) but they do hold you back to some extent on the run. It's the allure of tris - something gives you an advantage in one leg and takes away in another.

Yes, the more I researched it, it was clear 92.5 was a more realistic number.... Have to differentiate between pros n age groupers as well and as said earlier, exceptions to every rule but 92.5 seems about the mark.

 

Age certainly comes into it too, you won't see a 60 year old plus 90 breaking 10.

 

I think you sum I up well re the hope line. You have to believe, quitting before you start is never going to end well. Bit surprised to the negativity of what people are capable off but that's life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, the more I researched it, it was clear 92.5 was a more realistic number.... Have to differentiate between pros n age groupers as well and as said earlier, exceptions to every rule but 92.5 seems about the mark.

 

Age certainly comes into it too, you won't see a 60 year old plus 90 breaking 10.

 

I think you sum I up well re the hope line. You have to believe, quitting before you start is never going to end well. Bit surprised to the negativity of what people are capable off but that's life.

didn't we have a thread where the conclusion was that men under 40 should be smashing sub 10 in fact I think that one concluded that was too easy and they should be aiming for sub 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the real "athletic barrier" is not 10hrs but ~9h30m.

 

Sub 10hr is not that special, it just needs a bit of time, dedication and consistency.

 

Breaking 9h30m (on an honest course) is a different story though and will take a lot more trying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the real "athletic barrier" is not 10hrs but ~9h30m.

 

Sub 10hr is not that special, it just needs a bit of time, dedication and consistency.

 

Breaking 9h30m (on an honest course) is a different story though and will take a lot more trying.

 

Says the man who has done it? Everything is relative right? Do you think people who crack 9:30 then say oh well people do sub 9 that's the real barrier?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your point but what I'm saying is as a sub 10 you might be "above average" but you're not a really good age grouper. Get down to 9h30min and then we're talking.

 

it's all subjective I guess, even the times as I mentioned before - a sub 10 in Japan this year would probably be < 9h20 in a course like Melbourne (on a good day).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

The guys who are plotting everything with power meters and GPS are totally on the wrong track - look at PJ's performance either last year in Hawaii or yesterday at Mooloolaba (no need for GPS or power here) :shy:

 

I'm suggesting that using target power figures in the actual race is not the way to go - have the gadgets measuring what you have done so you can analyse it later - but the guys targeting certain power figures or run paces during the race are not on the right track - they're creating muscular tension by focussing on the outcome instead of just getting the process right

 

 

 

what about if you wore a watch ??

 

you might have 5 more sub 10 IMs !!

 

It wouldn't have made any difference - I went as hard as I could - each time I finished I had trouble standing up :shy: about three times I have finished Hawaii in sixth place - just off the stage - but in none of those cases could I have gone one bit harder - it's satisfying to cross the line knowing you could not have gone one bit harder anywhere :smile1:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm suggesting that using target power figures in the actual race is not the way to go - have the gadgets measuring what you have done so you can analyse it later - but the guys targeting certain power figures or run paces during the race are not on the right track - they're creating muscular tension by focussing on the outcome instead of just getting the process right

 

 

It wouldn't have made any difference - I went as hard as I could - each time I finished I had trouble standing up :shy: about three times I have finished Hawaii in sixth place - just off the stage - but in none of those cases could I have gone one bit harder - it's satisfying to cross the line knowing you could not have gone one bit harder anywhere :smile1:

Agreed.

 

I've seen many people ruin races using gadgets including a serious contender at the TT world championships. I nearly always train with gadgets but never race with them and when I do I tape over the screens so I can't see them and just review the data afterwards.

 

You can only go as hard as you can go and a number on a screen won't change that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your point but what I'm saying is as a sub 10 you might be "above average" but you're not a really good age grouper. Get down to 9h30min and then we're talking.

 

it's all subjective I guess, even the times as I mentioned before - a sub 10 in Japan this year would probably be < 9h20 in a course like Melbourne (on a good day).

Agreed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well when you say hard - I rarely ever let my HR go over 153 - if I was out running and came to a hill where my HR went higher than 153 - I walked till it came back to 150 then ran again - on the bike I geared down and spun the gears over the hills - I did a lot of climbing at 150-153 - when you say train hard - as you get fitter you have to work to stay at 150-153

 

My resting was around 38-40 and my max was 185 - I may have run track sessions once a week for about 18 weeks of the year in blocks of 6 weeks - all 400m efforts but never flat out - just 2-5 seconds faster than my 5km TT pace

 

I ran up to 3hrs on only a dessert spoon of olive oil and water - I would carry money or gels in case I needed fuel but would rarely use them

 

But when I raced I would just go as hard as I could without going over 153HR - but I was fit and couldn't go near that on the run - I just ran as fast as my legs would carry me - always focussed on technique :smile1: I never race with a watch

 

The guys who are plotting everything with power meters and GPS are totally on the wrong track - look at PJ's performance either last year in Hawaii or yesterday at Mooloolaba (no need for GPS or power here) :shy:

 

 

AP, im interested why you never let your heart rate go over 153? Is it purely from an injury prevention point of view? If your heart rate is or was 185 at maximum, that means that you never went over 82-83% maximum heart rate? What about during intervals on the bike and run? Surely during a sprint or olympic run, your heart rate should be close to maximum towards the end if you want to realise your full potential during those races? Not having a go, just interested..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm interested too. I'll assume it's a combination of injury prevention, training his aerobic system, but when he races depending on race length he pushes how he wants. Maxing during a Sprint, aerobic during IM. Maybe using races as his interval sessions.

 

Let's see how wrong I got it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can anyone estimate the time differences between the Australia IM courses? Assume conditions are ideal and set Port as the 10 hour benchmark.

 

Port Mac = 10.00

Melbourne = ?

Cairns = ?

Busso = ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have a go

 

PortMac: 10h00m

Melbourne: 9h35min

Cairns: 9h50m

Busso: 9h40m

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm suggesting that using target power figures in the actual race is not the way to go - have the gadgets measuring what you have done so you can analyse it later - but the guys targeting certain power figures or run paces during the race are not on the right track - they're creating muscular tension by focussing on the outcome instead of just getting the process right

 

Intrigued by this comment. I rode my only ironman with a power meter and had a target power. I think it helped pacing the bike for me a lot. No power meter I would have ridden the first 45 km way too hard for sure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have a go

 

PortMac: 10h00m

Melbourne: 9h35min

Cairns: 9h50m

Busso: 9h40m

How about Hawaii Rog (and others)? Assuming conditions are ideal again...

 

10:10? More?

 

Just interested

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

AP, im interested why you never let your heart rate go over 153? Is it purely from an injury prevention point of view? If your heart rate is or was 185 at maximum, that means that you never went over 82-83% maximum heart rate? What about during intervals on the bike and run? Surely during a sprint or olympic run, your heart rate should be close to maximum towards the end if you want to realise your full potential during those races? Not having a go, just interested..

 

A sub ten hour IM is a purely aerobic event - it's all about endurance - the strength you need is mainly to hold good posture through the whole event while you perform aerobically

 

If you regularly climb at 80%HR you have the opportunity to do long aerobic intervals - as you become aerobically developed these become pretty tough - the same with running - I only ever did 400m track runs a couple of seconds faster than my 5km TT time (I did max my HR out in time trials a few times a year) but for a 400m a couple of sec faster it hardly reaches 80% -- any sprint or OD races along the way were just done as hard as possible

 

Keep in mind my major goal was to reach my potential in IM - it's purely an endurance event where the greatest aerobic capacity, an efficient feeding plan and best technique are your requirements :smile1:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

How about Hawaii Rog (and others)? Assuming conditions are ideal again...

 

I personally felt the Hawaii course is around 20min slower than Forster - 10-15min slower than Port - my best Hawaii was 10.20 at 51yrs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I personally felt the Hawaii course is around 20min slower than Forster - 10-15min slower than Port - my best Hawaii was 10.20 at 51yrs

AP what about Port and Forster in terms of comparative times? faster/slower?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not qualified to comment as I haven't done Hawaii before but I agree with AP - 15 to 20mins seems about right.

 

Also I think despite the fact that Port's run has been flattened quite a bit compared to the first few years, the overall race seems to be slower now as the road conditions are not only affecting the bike times but also people's ability to run well after it.

 

So to @Coaches' question I think both courses (Port & Forster) are pretty comparable.

Edited by Rog

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have a go

 

PortMac: 10h00m

Melbourne: 9h35min

Cairns: 9h50m

Busso: 9h40m

From my experience :port mac in its first year :9:49

busso :9:32

melb 2012 :9:25

Hawaii :10:03

Taupo :9:49

 

all theses races are within a 5 year period with Port Mac being first ironman in 20 odd years having done Forster as a pup.

Never really had a crap race so effort was about the same .

 

Cheers Daz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd say Port is maybe 10min slower than Forster was - the bike is 15min slower and the run a bit easier - but you still get a towel and a medal - you still have to go the same distance

 

Personally I felt the Port road was tiring - dodging patches and rough bits - and the sections with coarse surface - but I have entered for next year already :scared:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

most age groupers are at least 30-60mins slower in Kona their first attempt

plenty blow out even more than that

 

as far as comparing courses go its pointless- different people are suited to different tracks and so much comes down to who rocks up/situational

-eg Port one year whole field crept swim/massive bike packs/not much wind= very quick times. The last year at Forster was a bathtub swim current+ no wind/draftest- plenty of quick times for people who didnt mind hotter running conditions. Busso is some peoples idea of Hell- particularly smaller guys who cant put power down to stay with bunch on flats. Cairns will kill someone who doesnt like the heat. Choose the course that suits you.

 

From what I've seen people finish Cairns and Port in similar times and Busso and Melbourne. The size of the field/course layout in Melbourne doesnt really make it a fair comparison with anything else

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

most age groupers are at least 30-60mins slower in Kona their first attempt

plenty blow out even more than that

 

 

What common mistakes do they make first time round Jimmy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

most age groupers are at least 30-60mins slower in Kona their first attempt

plenty blow out even more than that

 

 

 

What common mistakes do they make first time round Jimmy?

I went to Kona once, & the difference fits nicely into Jimmy's range. I did 9:25 at Forster & 10:02 at Kona. I think there were 3 reasons that I had that time difference.

 

The first was the timing. I raced Forster at the end of a good season here where I trained well & raced nearly every week. I enjoyed what I was doing, training & racing with mates. Hawaii was after our Winter. Most of my training was solo, I didn't enjoy it as much, and I travelled a bit with work which interupted training.

 

Secondly, the conditions were so different. The swim was harder (no wetsuit), there was a lot of wind on the bike, and it was 40 degrees out on the lava.

 

Thirdly, I got caught up in the atmosphere. When the lead girls came past I decided I'd try to not get chicked. That was just plain stoopid. I stayed within 50m of Erin Baker till close to the end of the bike, and that killed any chance I had of a good race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see your point but what I'm saying is as a sub 10 you might be "above average" but you're not a really good age grouper. Get down to 9h30min and then we're talking.

 

it's all subjective I guess, even the times as I mentioned before - a sub 10 in Japan this year would probably be < 9h20 in a course like Melbourne (on a good day).

 

Rog

 

Please don't encourage me, I know you didn't mean too but on a good course with top conditions, you are 100% correct.

 

OL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Number20- As the Ex-H says Kona is just plain hard

 

1. Youve already spent your bullets and mental energy qualifying

2. You have to train through winter

3. The course every part of it is hard- the swim takes more out of people as its a lot rougher and no wetsuit, bike has insane winds and run has heat like youve never experienced

4 The level of comp there is insane and it prompts you to go too hard

5 Its hard

6 Its hot beyond belief. Nutrition/hydration mistakes are WAY more costly

7 The course is extremely hard - did I say that before?

8 The wind completely undoes a lot of people - they just give up or get scared

9 Its hard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll have a go

 

PortMac: 10h00m

Melbourne: 9h35min

Cairns: 9h50m

Busso: 9h40m

Port 10hr

Melb 9.20

Busso 9.35

Cairns 9.50

Taupo 10hr

Kona 10 20

Forster 9.45

 

Cheers

Ip

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great input Jimmy, AP and ex-has. Breath of fresh air, and stuff from real world athletes that ordinary people like me can learn from and digest

 

This is upside down world - most of the faux authoritative posts are from people who have not got anywhere near the time of 10 hours - let alone understand the training and race execution required.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great input Jimmy, AP and ex-has. Breath of fresh air, and stuff from real world athletes that ordinary people like me can learn from and digest

 

This is upside down world - most of the faux authoritative posts are from people who have not got anywhere near the time of 10 hours - let alone understand the training and race execution required.

I know you don't give much away on here, but are you prepared to put it out there what you think your capable of at Port at your ripe old age (not actually do, but capable off as a lot can go wrong for anyone). By memory you went ok once upon a time and may well have gone sub 10.

 

Also, and I figure a lot can learn from this on here, how do you overcome the run having been there, done that so to speak.

 

Also, you race in the zone, even club races, how do you hold yourself back from empting the tank at IM - legally draft / sit in rather than go?

 

Think a few could learn from your thoughts on these.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know you don't give much away on here, but are you prepared to put it out there what you think your capable of at Port at your ripe old age (not actually do, but capable off as a lot can go wrong for anyone). By memory you went ok once upon a time and may well have gone sub 10.

 

Also, and I figure a lot can learn from this on here, how do you overcome the run having been there, done that so to speak.

 

Also, you race in the zone, even club races, how do you hold yourself back from empting the tank at IM - legally draft / sit in rather than go?

 

Think a few could learn from your thoughts on these.....

i give plenty away. no secrets here

 

dunno what time i'm capablle of. will sort that out with about 6 weeks to go once some specific training is done. yes i've raced an ironman before at the pointy end. means nothing 20 years later.

 

legs are fine at the moment. in fact i'm racking up very consistent running weeks and moving along the ground as well as any time in the past 6 years. the reason i stopped ironman is because i got run over by a car the year after my first ironman and fractured c6 and c7, clavicle, wrist, and skull. neck pain has persisted ever since. i was a codeine addict for 18 months after until an intervention by my family. it was then i started swimming more which i found relieved the pain, and got me off the painkillers. so, will see how the neck holds up on long rides over 5 hours

 

jimmyc has given me plenty to think about in terms of preparation and it will be about getting fit to do the last 10 weeks of prep. minimalist running and optimum swim/bike fitness. I'll hit up up Matt Koorey regularly and probably pick AP's brains along the way. There is plenty to learn.

 

Biggest problem in terms of going well is changing my energy system. i do glycogen very well. haven't run longer than 10 k in many years. i did a 4 hour ride with mick fox, jabba, and crowie a couple of years ago and felt strong all the way but don't ride more than 50 minutes normally. so the fat burning thing will be the challenge and reintroducing the body to enduring. swim training won't change one iota

 

not sure about a race plan. have no ****ing idea really. i am instinctual as a racer so will see what happens.

Edited by Coach@triathlon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×