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Ironman - 10 hours

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As a back of a packer this is a massive goal for me, and I know it is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question, but here goes.

 

If an athlete wanted to go sub 10 @ Ironman Melbourne what sort of targets should you be aiming for in training.

 

Looking at results from 2012 most people around that time swam around 55-60 min, rode between 5:00 and 5:15and ran 3:30 to 4:00.

 

So in training what sort of metrics would one be aiming for. More so where should you be at the start of a 16 week build.

 

Generally get weight down to 'racing weight' whatever that may be.

 

Swimming : Is it as simple as being able to swim 4km in the pool in 55 mins, I have heard people talk of 100 repeats on 1:30 or similar before.

 

Riding : Get an FTP or 3.5 w/kg or something like that, then work on being able to hold IM pace?

 

Running : No idea how to measure this one. 20 x 1km repeats @ 4:15 or something maybe?

 

I am looking at racing it in 2015 so it is 18 odd months away, so looking at the long term plan and ideas. Any input more than welcome.

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From the Race Reports thread...

 

 

Some stats for those concerned about a lack of K’s prior to IM...

 

From 1st January 2012 there was 12 weeks of training before IM Melbourne.

Weekly Average over the 12 weeks – Swim 12.38km; Bike 276.08km; Run 50.71km.

 

IM Melbourne Results - Swim 1:07:01; Bike 4:54:28; Run 3:47:11; Total 10:01:07.

 

 

Then there was 10 weeks of training before IM Cairns

Weekly Average over the 10 weeks – Swim 11.4km; Bike 187.3km; Run 48.8km.

 

IM Cairns Results – Swim 1:08:30; Bike 5:00:15; Run 3:31:03; Total 9:51:16.

 

 

Then there was 19 weeks before the IM World Champs (Kona)

Weekly average over the 19 weeks - Swim 8.13km; Bike 113.32km; Run 39.50km.

Weekly average over last 12 weeks - Swim 12.21km; Bike 165.75kmkm; Run 46.96km.

Weekly average over last 8 weeks - Swim 11.88km; Bike 191.88km; Run 44.19km.

 

Kona Results – Swim 1:13:21; Bike 5:29:09: ; Run 3:26:34; Total 10:23:09.

 

* Would have done more if I could have, but maybe you don't need to.

http://forums.transitions.org.au/index.php?showtopic=57767

 

Prior to this I was only training for Sprint & Olympic events.

 

Swimming: I've never swam any quicker than 1:30 / 100m.

 

Riding: I don't have a Power Meter or Speedo but basically just enjoy some 'Solid' rides.

 

Running: I don't do my 20km runs as 1km repeats (but I do think it is a good idea).

 

 

Edit to say - At this stage I'd be trying to work out your desired race pace in each of the 3 disciplines and then try doing some interval training at that pace just to see how you go. Don't overdo it, as you've got plenty of time.

 

Let us know how you go, then we might have something to work with. Good luck!

Edited by Go Easy
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As a back of a packer this is a massive goal for me, and I know it is a bit of a how long is a piece of string question, but here goes.

 

If an athlete wanted to go sub 10 @ Ironman Melbourne what sort of targets should you be aiming for in training.

 

Looking at results from 2012 most people around that time swam around 55-60 min, rode between 5:00 and 5:15and ran 3:30 to 4:00.

 

So in training what sort of metrics would one be aiming for. More so where should you be at the start of a 16 week build.

 

Generally get weight down to 'racing weight' whatever that may be.

 

Swimming : Is it as simple as being able to swim 4km in the pool in 55 mins, I have heard people talk of 100 repeats on 1:30 or similar before.

 

Riding : Get an FTP or 3.5 w/kg or something like that, then work on being able to hold IM pace?

 

Running : No idea how to measure this one. 20 x 1km repeats @ 4:15 or something maybe?

 

I am looking at racing it in 2015 so it is 18 odd months away, so looking at the long term plan and ideas. Any input more than welcome.

FTP at 4w/kg, unless your an elite runner.

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I would suggest that anyone going under 10 hours with a 4 hour run has gone too hard on the bike and capable of a faster time with a better paced race.

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I would suggest that anyone going under 10 hours with a 4 hour run has gone too hard on the bike and capable of a faster time with a better paced race.

Too true, 5:15/3:45 or 5:20/3:40 would be a more even split

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I think going under 10 hours would take an awful lot of dedication and training, more than I will ever be able to find. Good luck T

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Guest Fatrunner

FTP 4 watts or better. Off the bike in 6 hours. Go from there. Sub 10 is doable for anyone with the time and health especially at IMML.

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At this stage I'd be trying to work out your desired race pace in each of the 3 disciplines and then try doing some interval training at that pace just to see how you go. Don't overdo it, as you've got plenty of time.

 

Sorry, I had a bad case of Postus Interuptus last night...

 

What I was going to say was to do some shorter stuff that you perceive as 'Race Pace' for each leg.

 

Then as a basic training principle, you do some longer training at slightly slower than race pace.

And some shorter interval training at slightly faster than race pace.

 

It's very basic, but that's how I'd approach it.

 

 

Once you've done a bit of this, then we can see where your strengths and weaknesses are and can work on these. It beats me how anyone can calculate how fast you should be going in each leg without knowing what your capabilities are. Some people come out of the water in under 50minutes and finish in 14 hours... others struggle to get out of the water in 80 minutes and finish well under 10 hours. There are lots of variables... and there will be lots of theories on here!

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FTP 4 watts or better. Off the bike in 6 hours. Go from there. Sub 10 is doable for anyone with the time and health especially at IMML.

I just love these sweeping generalizations.

 

There appear to be a lot of people completely stuffing up their training and their races looking at the finishing times if this is true.

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I just love these sweeping generalizations.

 

There appear to be a lot of people completely stuffing up their training and their races looking at the finishing times if this is true.

I'm a bit confused as well...

 

Why is W/kg a key measure for the IM Melbourne bike course?

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Never swam 1.30 time repeat in the pool more like 1.40.

 

Bike, be able to hold 33-34kph avg (legally) .

 

Run. I'd say no quicker than 4.30s.

 

That's what I did. 1.03/5.08/3.29

 

Hope this helps.

 

16 weeks out. Be fit enough to ride 100km and run 20k. Work from there.

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For those of you who have gone sub-10, roughly what proportion of your weekly workouts were at/above race pace?

 

 

40%.

 

Key sessions are: 2 x hard bikes, 1 during the week with a 75min block doing hills and steady reps at above HR. The w/e ride is a key, usually something like 6 x 20min at HIM pace and circa 170km in just over 5 H- 5 H 10. Then when you ride 5 hours on racer day you are holding back. Aim to ride 400km a week I would say

 

Swim, can't really give advice on that as I feel like I am always hammering it and still slow.

 

Run, for me, zero pace work at all as I came from run back ground. So running 3:15 for me is just a run pace and holding together

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I did 10:30 at port, 1:13/5:19/3:51

 

I screwed up my swim and would have lost at least a few mins at the start so in an ideal world I think I could have swam 68-70mins on reflection but below is an indication on where I was at before the race.

 

Swim - 20 x 200s in on 3:30 leaving 3:45 or 40 x 100 in on 1:40-43 off 1:50.

 

Bike - 180km solo ride with decent elevation (1500-2000m) avg over 30kmh

100km time trial in race setup avg 34-35kmh

 

Run - long runs up to 3 hour avg around or under 5min k pace

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For those of you who have gone sub-10, roughly what proportion of your weekly workouts were at/above race pace?

Nearly all the swimming, only a very small % of the bike, and most of the running.

 

Very unscientific training. Swam in a good squad with some top triathletes & swimmers, rode 150-180km at about 33km/h most weekends (included climbs) and did 50km rides before work with a mate a couple times a week (these included some fun efforts & sprints for zebra crossings), and hilly bush runs up to 15km at sub 4min pace.

I just did what I enjoyed doing, so didn't get bored and trained hard right through because I was having fun.

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40%.

 

Key sessions are: 2 x hard bikes, 1 during the week with a 75min block doing hills and steady reps at above HR. The w/e ride is a key, usually something like 6 x 20min at HIM pace and circa 170km in just over 5 H- 5 H 10. Then when you ride 5 hours on racer day you are holding back. Aim to ride 400km a week I would say

 

Swim, can't really give advice on that as I feel like I am always hammering it and still slow.

 

Run, for me, zero pace work at all as I came from run back ground. So running 3:15 for me is just a run pace and holding together

 

 

 

There is no way you need to ride 400 km a week to ride 4.55-5.10 in an Ironman

Edited by Luiz Suarez
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I know some will say the only way to know is to go and do 3.8/180/42.

 

But here is what I work to for every day training tests (training that simply forms part of your day to day training) something you can measure over weeks/months/years.

 

20 x 100 with 10sec rest. I think what you can consistently come in on should be around your IM swim per 100 (given you add wetsuit, salt water, drafting etc). so for 60 min time coming in on 1:35.

 

Running Aet+30 sec/km so a 3:40 IM runner should be able to hold a pace of 4:45 /km in their aerobic zone.

 

With the bike ther are too many variables without height weight, weight etc. But if you have a power meter shouldn't be hard to determine.

 

Edited something strange happen to my orginal post.

Edited by ashley_s

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Interesting, thanks for the insights. Maybe one day I will be capable of a sub-10 ironman. But first I would like to focus on sub-5 70.3 (and sub 2:15 olympic)...That oughta keep me busy.

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Id look to be posting at least two shirtless pics on Facebook a week from at least 10 weeks out.

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Finish times are completely outside of your control - aim for age group percentage and the rest will look after itself. What happens if it is a windy day, longer swim, etc etc? Any time based plan for a race as long as an Ironman is a recipe for disaster IMO (and I've done this a couple of times).

 

You can see this just by looking at some of the answers on this thread - from people saying you have to have an FTP of 4w/kg+ to others saying you have to ride 400km/week etc etc. I've never ridden 400km in a week and would've been lucky to touch 4w/kg for my last sub 10hr race. Maybe if I was racing IM Switzerland an FTP of 4w/kg+ would make a difference but it is completely irrelevant for a course like Melbourne.

 

What I normally do to set goals these days is look at the results from previous races over the same course and draw a line where I want to be. Check the names around that line and start researching these guys results over different races and distances and soon you will get a good idea of what it takes.

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I've done it on roughly a 5.20 bike - 3.40 run and never been able to swim 100s on the 1.30 - wouldn't have had a clue what watts per kg was - just did lots of aerobic (under 80% riding and running) - had good recovery procedures and never trained more than 18hrs in a week (mostly 15hrs)

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Very unscientific training. Swam in a good squad with some top triathletes & swimmers, rode 150-180km at about 33km/h most weekends (included climbs) and did 50km rides before work with a mate a couple times a week (these included some fun efforts & sprints for zebra crossings), and hilly bush runs up to 15km at sub 4min pace.

I just did what I enjoyed doing, so didn't get bored and trained hard right through because I was having fun.

 

Similar for me. Especially the bit in bold.

 

Squad.

 

Hilly long ride every week (although a bit slower than Ex-H), always with a brick run.

 

30+ km long run every week.

 

Hard riding and hard running every week. Lots of racing off a big base, (raced 20 tris one year).

 

Never cracked the hour for the swim. Could never hold 1:30 / 100m for more than a few intervals, but could still knock out 1:40 after the squad had gone home and I was rounding out a 7 km set.

 

Fastest ride was about 5:15 at Forster.

 

Always kept in sub 3 stand-alone marathon shape.

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You don't have to ride 400k a week but it makes the ride easy on race day if you do.

 

There's a lot of ways to go sub 10.

 

 

That is the part the other poster does not get. It also means you can jog a 3:15 and not a 4:15

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I've done 2 ironman distance races both around the 9:30 mark.

 

Melbourne 2012 was the first one and one of the easiest courses out there so it's would have to be your best chance of doing sub 10 - if the weather permits.

 

Amount of training depends on your ability to an extent.

 

Swimming - Ideally 3 sessions per week. Swim squad with a focus on long distance. You need to do open water swimming in your wetsuit, try for once a week.

If you have access to a ocean pool even better you can measure your progress by doing 400m intervals at race pace with 15 -30s break, closer to race to 1km intervals same rest. You want to be able to hold just over 1:30's to do about an hour. If you are limited to a normal pool, you want to be able to do 100m repeats off 1:40.

 

Bike - At least 3 per week. One at high intensity for about 90 minutes, one of intervals using big gears, very important for strength in an ironman bike (this session can be done on a wind trainer if needed - 75 minutes. One long session - building up to 170km-180km do intervals in this ride at 70.3 pace or IM pace.

 

Run - Long run building to 34km about 10-15s per km under IM pace. One tempo run, one intervals.

 

Training camps help a lot, both physically and mentally. less than 3 months out from Melbourne I hadn't trained for a month due to an operation and was well over race weight. I did a training camp at Perisher and that helped kick start my preparation and mentally made all the long rides much easier.

 

If you can do a week or two mid preparation of 5 swims per week, this will get your swim fitness a boost and you can hold that on 3 sessions per week thereafter. I had a crash mid prep and couldn't swim for a couple of weeks, I then did 6 sessions a week the next 2 weeks and I was back to where I was.

 

Prepare mentally and if you really want it get a coach.

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I think I've only seen it mentioned once here on this thread, but you should race every opportunity you get. Not just in the 16 week build up, but start now. A few have said to do open water swims to get used to navigation & your wetsuit, but what better preparation to get used to the washing machine that is a swim start, than actually being in one.

It also gives you continual feedback on how you're going, and keeps you interested and having fun. Even if they are just small club events, get out there & do them. I raced 20 times in the season prior to my best IM, and had a ball right through.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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Absolutely agree with hasbeen and racing lots. Many people racing IM stop racing a lot because they think it will effect the end result. It doesn't have to be that way. The OP has lots of time, find running races, sprint tris, duathlons, you name it. Every time you race you learn something about yourself. It's invaluable.

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13 hrs is the first goal.

 

Any longer and you can't comment on Trannies :shy:

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FTP at 4w/kg, unless your an elite runner.

Torbjorn Sindballe rode 4:21:57 hours riding 300 watts fro the first half and 273 for the second riding at 75-77 IF FTP around 4.5 and an under biker. Could the ten hour person get away with a bit less than 4?

 

 

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Absolutely agree with hasbeen and racing lots. Many people racing IM stop racing a lot because they think it will effect the end result. It doesn't have to be that way. The OP has lots of time, find running races, sprint tris, duathlons, you name it. Every time you race you learn something about yourself. It's invaluable.

You know what I did ... joined a cycle club and raced everyweek - crits, road races, bunch rides. Ride with the best and you get better. I didn't bother with boring indoor trainers, intervals, power numbers. I just rode and loved every minute of it.

Ironman ride was a breeze, almost disappointing when it was over.

My running was neglected, but gee I had fresh legs coming off the bike.

So, not for everyone, but something to consider.

Also, Park Run, whilst only 5km, helps with a quick leg turnover if you make it a consistent part of your program.

 

Other than racing, none of my training was below IM race pace, but when I did race it was well below.

Ocean Swims if you live near the beach, another ripper of a training tool

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Other than racing, none of my training was below IM race pace, but when I did race it was well below.

 

I'm not sure I understand this bit.

You trained fast and raced slow?

Or by 'below IM race pace' do you mean faster than IM pace?

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Just get under 90kgs, if you have any sort of athleticism you'll go sub 10 on three swims, three rides and three runs a week.

..... Just add genetics....and some luck

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Also helps to be patient.

 

Even with the best coach and program it might take a few attempts to find something that works for you or for the body to respond to what you are doing.

 

I guess that's where genetics and talent come in.

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I don't think anyone is going to disagree. Not even the Oompa Loompa

Yes, that's my point, if your half coordinated and train consistently you'll get there. Jabbs use to say, may still do, that you had to be under 80k to be decent pro, of course there will be exceptions to every rule. Look, I'm probably blessed living where I live ss I see all types, some people under 90kgs will never get there no matter how hard they try, say an 80/20 rule... You know the %, the back of the packers, you know, people that stop for a rest at the top of the hill, don't have the mindset to look forward, rather looking at what they've done.

 

If your an age grouper that trains properly, under 90kgs, you should go sub 10 on the right course, ie a Melbourne with good weather. That assumes you have coordination, genetics etc. think back to school, when you went of a run were you up there or at the back. Did you walk into sporting teams without even trialling or were you the last to be picked. If you were up there you are still going to be up there all things being equal. If you were at the back, you are blessed that its a rote sport, a sport that just requires a draft horse mentality, over and over again, no real skill per se to go round three or four people and slam the ball into a back of a net. You can just repeat and repeat, get strong and the majority will get there in the end if the give it long eneough. I know heaps of "little" men that have taken 10 years but have got there because they have been able to train for years over and over, the same rote skill set. That's the beauty of the sport, its all straight lines so injuries are mitigated for old folk, not all, but it enables the hordes to have relatively good time in mid to old age. It's part of why it is such a great sport.

 

Lastly, ask yourself what do you do when you get to the top of hill, congratulate yourself that you ran or road to the top or drop the hammer and get on with it. What's your mind set?

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