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Rog

Long run benchmarks: standalone vs. Ironman pace

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There are quite a few interesting posts stemming from the thread about the perfect Ironman training week and I'm interested in pulling this one out to see what others think.

 

In particular, I was interested in this post from slice, in which he states his long runs were all done at 5-6 min/km pace, yet he managed to run a very impressive (and probably within the top 1% of the field) 3h10min run last year at Port.

 

 

Not really sure what numbers you want. So like I said somewhere 5 to 6 min pace on Tuesday long run. Approx 4 min pace arvo run same day. Not sure if you want to get on to intervals yet ??

 

Port 2012 ran 3.10. = 4.30min/km pace this is PB for me

 

 

In my last Ironman, where my long runs have all been done at 4:40-4:45min/km pace for up to 2.5hrs, I ended up averaging 5:12min/km for the IM mara.

 

This is inline with what I heard about expected pace drop off of about 20-25s/km when you add the swim & bike fatigue to your legs.

 

So this time I am training to get my long run down to a "comfortable" 4:30min/km pace and all things going well expecting to be able to run my next Ironman at around 4:45-4:50 min/km.

 

Obviously how you pace the bike will have a huge impact in the difference but I'm more interested in those that got off the bike in a position to deliver your best possible run.

 

What's your experience when comparing long training runs vs. race day pace?

Edited by Rog

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the bike will have a huge impact in the difference
............this

 

it will take you a few years to sort that before you see the correlation you are talking about in your next statement........

 

expecting to be able to run my next Ironman at around 4:45-4:50 min/km.

 

........based on probabilities- but there are exceptions

 

 

get my long run down to a "comfortable" 4:30min/km pace
.............

 

lots of denial with folks on this one too- if it aint a true extensive aerobic/ default pace then you aren't really going to see that magical +15secs correlation

 

most take 3-5 years of continous work to get it there- some exceptions

Edited by Jimmy C

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...if it aint a true extensive aerobic/ default pace...

 

 

What does this mean Jimmy?

 

And also, what's your personal experience?

Edited by Rog

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you can be "comfortable" at a whole range of paces especially going into LR fresh

 

you dont want to be pushing into the top of your aerobic zone and tapping glycogen to find that 4.30/k pace

 

lots of guys log book themselves and tick themselves off as ready to run 3.20, 3.30 whatever

 

this is why i feel a more honest assessment is doing best aerobic pace LR day after the long bike

 

if you really are executing a "true" aerobic 4.30/k you should be able to do it on semi shelled legs and still feel comfortable not comfortable on glycogen filled fresh legs.

 

you often find people with talent end up blowing it for a few years as they are natural racehorses and dont feel much discomfort running at their top aerobic paces- im not going to turn this into a jargon conversation about zones. it just has to be done using a relevant energy system.

 

i would have been capable of running any 2hr run at 4.30/k or less even from the first year i trained but it took years to get the IM run down into the 3.20's (later start and fair bit older than you)

 

does this make sense?

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G'day Rog,

 

All my 3:30 or better runners, have an Aet pace of 4:30min/k or better.

 

Like Jimmy says it takes a few years to develop that pace, without any changes, in HR, RPE, form etc.

 

Fleck over on Slowtwitch made a good tip...He says take all your runs for the week or even a month, work out what that paces ends up being and that will in line closely to projected IM pace

 

Gordo believes you should be able to do IM run at Aetpace, however, that takes superior swim and bike fitness to run that well. Most of my guys it starts at +30sec per km.

 

Finally, Aetpace is also a moving target, it generally starts just below the bottom of zone 2 but can move up as high a mid zone 2 (Friels zones). Once again, no shortcutting that beyond years of consistent running, that will chip away at your running efficienncy.

 

Newman on here is the only guy I know that has been able to run an IM run at Aetpace....He should share his thoughts on this

 

fluro

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An interesting topic. My training runs (Long) were all going into the mid 4min pace for 2hrs and 2:30 up to IM Port. When I started the run (off a 5:21 bike...I'm 59ks) for the first 2 laps was cruising at mid 4min pace. :smile1: Happy days. Then it went pair shaped and went to over 5's and finishing with 3:36. It is interesting to see how people think they are running off the bike as I felt slow and yet looking at the watch was going a good clip. Tried to slow a bit knowing it would catch up with me later in the run but it is hard to slow down to even high 4mins and hope that that will be fine and the same pace later in the race.

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Hi Rog. I did a longish run midweek on pretty fresh legs at avg 4:30-4:40 pace. My long runs were on tired legs each Sunday and all but the last one were at 4:50-4:55 pace. My coach said perfect bike pacing on day should see me run same pace as my fatigued long runs. Happy to report he was right. Ran a 3:26 at Port (4:53/km) - so directly in line with long runs.

 

As for pacing on the day - went out solid and first 10k in 45m. Then settled to 4:50-5:10 pace over next 32k. Hardest I found was the 18-25k mark mentally.

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Is there a reason why you wouldn't do your long run off the back of your long bike and have a sunday off? Has anybody done this? The way I see it it also means you are running in a hotter part of the day, closer to what you're doing race day.

 

Im thinking about having a go at one of these next year so I'm really enjoying reading these threads at the moment thanks guys :)

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Is there a reason why you wouldn't do your long run off the back of your long bike and have a sunday off? Has anybody done this? The way I see it it also means you are running in a hotter part of the day, closer to what you're doing race day.

 

Im thinking about having a go at one of these next year so I'm really enjoying reading these threads at the moment thanks guys :)

 

 

yes.. its a great idea.. I used to when I was younger... but now my family wouldn't be happy if I left in the dark and returned, at the end of the day, in the dark

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Still do a fairly long run off long bike (final build started it as 12k and got to 18k). But this run was at a higher intensity. I think doing a 30k plus run off a long bike would go too far and require too much recovery to be effective.

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Still do a fairly long run off long bike (final build started it as 12k and got to 18k). But this run was at a higher intensity. I think doing a 30k plus run off a long bike would go too far and require too much recovery to be effective.

 

Is it something you could fit in say once a month, off the back of a ITT just to get your pacing and feel right?

 

I know a lot of people in running will do a 3 week hard 1 week recover rotation, could that set be at the end of the 3rd week followed by rest day sunday and then an easier week off the back?

Edited by RunBrettRun

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