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10 minutes ago, trinube said:

Excellent points.

On point 1, and as Katz alluded to earlier, I think a lot of people end up in Uni because they have no idea what they want to do.

So they end up with a PhD in gender fluidity and expect the rest of us to pick up the tab

If the name of a degree ends in 'studies' chances are it will be completely useless and should therefore not be funded by the taxpayer

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I have degrees in, Software stuff, Project Management and a BA in History, Sociology and English. The BA has been the most useful degree of the three. I have worked in the SW and Project stuff all my working life and the BA is the most valuable.

BA was HECS, my employers funded the other two as it built business capability

Edited by BarryBevan

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6 hours ago, Peter said:

I've gotta say, I didnt think our country was this close in voting.

image.png.aa1982b275710d0eab0ee7ed39a25f58.png

Do you have the greens to add to that.

Then Palmer?

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2 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I paid mine up front as I went. I studied part time, and there was still a 30% discount for paying up front. Considering I was already way over the threshold, and would have paid most of each semester off before the end of it, it was a no-brainer.

I did the same

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Quote

I have degrees in, Software stuff, Project Management

 

Jeez you can a a full degree in Proj Mgt?  Thats a lot of gannt chart viewing over 3 years 😂😂😂

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If you think of our PM's from BOTH sides over the last 40 years that BOTH sides like... it Hawke.    Sco Mo channelled Hawke and got a few back to scrape what i assume will be a working majority with a speaker included.   He went from looking like a bloke that had never held a beer to a professional beer holder in 4 weeks.

Albo is the only one that can win Govt for the ALP. 

He is the only one that get in the gutter like Abbott.  He is the only one that seems human.

If sco mo survives three years it will be election of sco mo as a good bloke v ?????   .  That question mark can only be Albo.  I'm not saying whether he can do the job or not but he is the only one that can win it for them, the only one that can out do "good bloke" sco mo...... and they wouldn't dare pick on his mum....lol

 

 

Edited by Oompa Loompa

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3 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Naturally 

The prospect of a Labor government is like kryptonite to financial markets 

I am still in disbelief that people thought Labor would win.... I mean every financial expert said it would be bad for the economy and post election (today) they are all saying we have dodged a bullet.

Now keep in mind.... Shorten also kept talking about an experienced cabinet..... ie: Plibersek, Albanese, Shorten, Bowen and Wong etc....... I mean seriously....... these were the idiots (except Albo) who reined during the Rudd/Gillard years.

And the arrogance of Shorten. Sent an acceptance tweet to media outlets Saturday afternoon for there Sunday papers........ and last week emailed Morrison to set up meetings to ensure a smooth transition of government..........no wonder the bloke seemed so shell shocked.

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5 hours ago, trinube said:

Albo is popular but only slightly younger than me - by the next election he will be thinking more about retirement than moving into the Lodge. Maybe he's a sucker for punishment and wants to give it a go but 3 years is a long time in opposition - especially after spending the past 6 years there.

Albo is 56. He won't even be 60 by the next election. You talk as if he's as old as Trump or Sanders.

Surprisingly, Australia has only had three PMs initially take office after turning 60, and they've all been from the coalition. McEwen for only a few weeks in a caretaker capacity following Holt's death, McMahon and Turnbull.

 

Edited by Paul Every

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4 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

Albo is 56. He won't even be 60 by the next election. You talk as if he's as old as Trump or Sanders.

Not all all, my point is that he's been in Parliament for 23 years already and it will be 27 years by the time the next election comes around. He may be a political masochist but I'd be surprised if he wants to continue on given the time he's already been in office. He's already had a relationship recently fail and I'm not sure he will want to continue sacrificing when his immediate future is 3 years in opposition.

I may be completely wrong, it's just a gut feeling.

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9 hours ago, dazaau said:

I don't get people whinging about university fees etc. You don't pay up front. You don't have to go to university. 60 per cent of your fees are paid for by other peoples taxes. WHAT MORE DO PEOPLE WANT.

I "hate" paying my HECS back, but I'm earning a lot more than I would have without my degree so I'm happy to pay, after all, I benefit more from my education than anyone else - and I'm only paying for 40% of it! What could be fairer (apart from me paying for more of it perhaps)? 

If you want to work as a Physio you HAVE TO study at Uni.

Work hard through school, score 98 or 99 in your HSC (ie top 1% of the state) and you can get straight in as an undergrad. This costs you around $40,000 and the commonwealth supports you (CSP). Not a bad deal

Say you get 95. You didn;t work hard enough, but the job market needs more Physios. the Unis will let you do an Undergrad course, say Exercise Science. That costs you $18,000 and the commonwealth once again supports you. you could stop there and do important work helping promote health and disease through exercise interventions. If you are hell bent on being a Physio the Unis happily offer you a 2 year Masters in Physiotherapy, the government doesn't support these Masters degrees as they are for high flying corprorate types so that costs you $42,000 a year. (and you spend more than half the time doing "clinical placements" where you essentially work for free in the public health system while paying hecs for the privilege)

So our lazy Physio has now a neat $100,000 Uni debt and has been studying 5 years at University to earn the right to be registered to do their job. They earn 62-69,000 in the public health service in NSW as a 1st year grad, and the communists who run public health pay you the same as a music therapist or play therapist.

I am not a vice chancellor so don;t have the stats on Undergrad vs Masters qualified places, and the cynic would assume it's a massive Uni cash-grab, like the Singapore Physio cohorts they enrol as a separate course in the same facility, but I haven't seen an undergrad qualified Physio apply for work with me in the last 10 years at least. every kid I start has $80-100,000 around their neck before they work a day. Their tradie mates have bought a van down the coast, ski boat or first flat by then if they're smart.

Edited by Parkside
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1 hour ago, IronmanFoz said:

 

And the arrogance of Shorten. Sent an acceptance tweet to media outlets Saturday afternoon for there Sunday papers........ and last week emailed Morrison to set up meetings to ensure a smooth transition of government..........no wonder the bloke seemed so shell shocked.

But, but the liberals...

(Oh, we're not going with that argument still?)

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10 minutes ago, Parkside said:

If you want to work as a Physio you HAVE TO study at Uni.

Work hard through school, score 98 or 99 in your HSC (ie top 1% of the state) and you can get straight in as an undergrad. This costs you around $40,000 and the commonwealth supports you (CSP). Not a bad deal

Say you get 95. You didn;t work hard enough, but the job market needs more Physios. the Unis will let you do an Undergrad course, say Exercise Science. That costs you $18,000 and the commonwealth once again supports you. you could stop there and do important work helping promote health and disease through exercise interventions. If you are hell bent on being a Physio the Unis happily offer you a 2 year Masters in Physiotherapy, the government doesn't support these Masters degrees as they are for high flying corprorate types so that costs you $42,000 a year. (and you spend more than half the time doing "clinical placements" where you essentially work for free in the public health system while paying hecs for the privilege)

So our lazy Physio has now a neat $100,000 Uni debt and has been studying 5 years at University to earn the right to be registered to do their job. They earn 62-69,000 in the public health service in NSW as a 1st year grad, and the communists who run public health pay you the same as a music therapist or play therapist.

I am not a vice chancellor so don;t have the stats on Undergrad vs Masters qualified places, and the cynic would assume it's a massive Uni cash-grab, like the Singapore Physio cohorts they enrol as a separate course in the same facility, but I haven't seen an undergrad qualified Physio apply for work with me in the last 10 years at least. every kid I start has $80-100,000 around their neck before they work a day. Their tradie mates have bought a van down the coast, ski boat or first flat by then if they're smart.

That's one pathway, another would be to give up on going to the University of Sydney or Melbourne and start out at a lower uni and/or lower course. Then you change unis/degrees when you prove yourself to be good. May take longer.

But I see what you are saying, but this is mostly an allocation problem.

I do despise the way atar is used to allocate limited course numbers. Just because atar is high doesn't mean the course is hard, just popular and limited. 

 

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54 minutes ago, Paul Every said:

Albo is 56. He won't even be 60 by the next election. You talk as if he's as old as Trump or Sanders.

Surprisingly, Australia has only had three PMs initially take office after turning 60, and they've all been from the coalition. McEwen for only a few weeks in a caretaker capacity following Holt's death, McMahon and Turnbull.

 

Holt didn't die, picked up in a Chinese sub.  Came back to Australia October long weekend, 2016.

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22 minutes ago, Parkside said:

If you want to work as a Physio you HAVE TO study at Uni.

Work hard through school, score 98 or 99 in your HSC (ie top 1% of the state) and you can get straight in as an undergrad. This costs you around $40,000 and the commonwealth supports you (CSP). Not a bad deal

Say you get 95. You didn;t work hard enough, but the job market needs more Physios. the Unis will let you do an Undergrad course, say Exercise Science. That costs you $18,000 and the commonwealth once again supports you. you could stop there and do important work helping promote health and disease through exercise interventions. If you are hell bent on being a Physio the Unis happily offer you a 2 year Masters in Physiotherapy, the government doesn't support these Masters degrees as they are for high flying corprorate types so that costs you $42,000 a year. (and you spend more than half the time doing "clinical placements" where you essentially work for free in the public health system while paying hecs for the privilege)

So our lazy Physio has now a neat $100,000 Uni debt and has been studying 5 years at University to earn the right to be registered to do their job. They earn 62-69,000 in the public health service in NSW as a 1st year grad, and the communists who run public health pay you the same as a music therapist or play therapist.

I am not a vice chancellor so don;t have the stats on Undergrad vs Masters qualified places, and the cynic would assume it's a massive Uni cash-grab, like the Singapore Physio cohorts they enrol as a separate course in the same facility, but I haven't seen an undergrad qualified Physio apply for work with me in the last 10 years at least. every kid I start has $80-100,000 around their neck before they work a day. Their tradie mates have bought a van down the coast, ski boat or first flat by then if they're smart.

That's an interesting read.

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27 minutes ago, Parkside said:

If you want to work as a Physio you HAVE TO study at Uni.

Work hard through school, score 98 or 99 in your HSC (ie top 1% of the state) and you can get straight in as an undergrad. This costs you around $40,000 and the commonwealth supports you (CSP). Not a bad deal

Say you get 95. You didn;t work hard enough, but the job market needs more Physios. the Unis will let you do an Undergrad course, say Exercise Science. That costs you $18,000 and the commonwealth once again supports you. you could stop there and do important work helping promote health and disease through exercise interventions. If you are hell bent on being a Physio the Unis happily offer you a 2 year Masters in Physiotherapy, the government doesn't support these Masters degrees as they are for high flying corprorate types so that costs you $42,000 a year. (and you spend more than half the time doing "clinical placements" where you essentially work for free in the public health system while paying hecs for the privilege)

So our lazy Physio has now a neat $100,000 Uni debt and has been studying 5 years at University to earn the right to be registered to do their job. They earn 62-69,000 in the public health service in NSW as a 1st year grad, and the communists who run public health pay you the same as a music therapist or play therapist.

I am not a vice chancellor so don;t have the stats on Undergrad vs Masters qualified places, and the cynic would assume it's a massive Uni cash-grab, like the Singapore Physio cohorts they enrol as a separate course in the same facility, but I haven't seen an undergrad qualified Physio apply for work with me in the last 10 years at least. every kid I start has $80-100,000 around their neck before they work a day. Their tradie mates have bought a van down the coast, ski boat or first flat by then if they're smart.

no offence, but Australia voted against this type of society on the weekend.  Probably should up the charges to full user pays and maybe get some more handouts for the baby boomer generation like franking thing.... maybe if you own a house, over 65, you get $20k handout.

have no idea how the rest of the world works, but i hate to be a kid these days... seems if your over 65, youre laughin,  even get welfare if you own shares and pay no tax like above, but if your 18 - 25 your stuffed, and thats just with the price of somewhere to live before you get into choices around the rest of your life

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7 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

no offence, but Australia voted against this type of society on the weekend.  Probably should up the charges to full user pays and maybe get some more handouts for the baby boomer generation like franking thing.... maybe if you own a house, over 65, you get $20k handout.

have no idea how the rest of the world works, but i hate to be a kid these days... seems if your over 65, youre laughin,  even get welfare if you own shares and pay no tax like above, but if your 18 - 25 your stuffed, and thats just with the price of somewhere to live before you get into choices around the rest of your life

Everything outside your house is paid for by tax rates etc. Why should my tax subsidise some person with a huge incomes capital gain. Or tax refund when they paid no tax.

Shorty's message was okay he was a lame campaigner who could not cut through. Andrew Leigh is pretty good and should put hat in plus he ra a 118 half marathon last year and gassed me at a 10 k

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8 hours ago, Oompa Loompa said:

seems if your over 65, youre laughin,  even get welfare if you own shares and pay no tax like above

:lol: Yeah so under Labor if you're in the small minority of self managed super funds you pay the tax already paid by the company giving you the dividend but if you're in an Industry fund you don't. 

 

Real smart.

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3 minutes ago, nealo said:

:lol: Yeah so under Labor if you're in the small minority of self managed super funds you pay the tax already paid by the company giving you the dividend but if you're in an Industry fund you don't. 

 

Real smart.

They're self managed. Change the make-up so it doesn't happen.

PD sprouted that this policy would cost pensioners up to $20,000 a year. Does anybody realise that for it to cost $20K a year, you'd have to have about $1.3M in shares, and be earning $70,000 a year in franked dividends. Do these people really get a pension?

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen

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9 hours ago, Parkside said:

If you want to work as a Physio you HAVE TO study at Uni.

Work hard through school, score 98 or 99 in your HSC (ie top 1% of the state) and you can get straight in as an undergrad. This costs you around $40,000 and the commonwealth supports you (CSP). Not a bad deal

Say you get 95. You didn;t work hard enough, but the job market needs more Physios. the Unis will let you do an Undergrad course, say Exercise Science. That costs you $18,000 and the commonwealth once again supports you. you could stop there and do important work helping promote health and disease through exercise interventions. If you are hell bent on being a Physio the Unis happily offer you a 2 year Masters in Physiotherapy, the government doesn't support these Masters degrees as they are for high flying corprorate types so that costs you $42,000 a year. (and you spend more than half the time doing "clinical placements" where you essentially work for free in the public health system while paying hecs for the privilege)

So our lazy Physio has now a neat $100,000 Uni debt and has been studying 5 years at University to earn the right to be registered to do their job. They earn 62-69,000 in the public health service in NSW as a 1st year grad, and the communists who run public health pay you the same as a music therapist or play therapist.

I am not a vice chancellor so don;t have the stats on Undergrad vs Masters qualified places, and the cynic would assume it's a massive Uni cash-grab, like the Singapore Physio cohorts they enrol as a separate course in the same facility, but I haven't seen an undergrad qualified Physio apply for work with me in the last 10 years at least. every kid I start has $80-100,000 around their neck before they work a day. Their tradie mates have bought a van down the coast, ski boat or first flat by then if they're smart.

This was me, except for the 'lazy' part. I enrolled in the Master of Physio after doing a handful of other degrees in a different field. I was hoping for a move into what I thought would be a more fulfilling career. I chose the Masters, I could have done UG as I'd applied for both and was offered both, but chose it because it was a shorter course, and the time of graduation (April rather than the end of the year with the UGs) meant there would be less competition for jobs. I almost finished it, but decided it wasn't a good fit for me. Sadly costing me a bomb in the process.

I agree it's a massive cash grab. There was barely anything different between the Masters students and UGs. We were in the same classes almost all of the time, with the exception of the intensive program we started with in January before the UGs came back into second year. The main difference was the compressed program. While they were on holidays mid-semester and end of year, we were on placement. The demographics were international students, many SIngaporean, little rich kids who discovered their Exercise Science degree wasn't going to let them be a physo for [insert sporting team], and me, pretty much.

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33 minutes ago, nealo said:

:lol: Yeah so under Labor if you're in the small minority of self managed super funds you pay the tax already paid by the company giving you the dividend but if you're in an Industry fund you don't. 

 

Real smart.

It's almost as if they wanted to make industry funds more popular

I wonder why...

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45 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

They're self managed. Change the make-up so it doesn't happen.

PD sprouted that this policy would cost pensioners up to $20,000 a year. Does anybody realise that for it to cost $20K a year, you'd have to have about $1.3M in shares, and be earning $70,000 a year in franked dividends. Do these people really get a pension?

Nothing to do with the pension. $1.3m isn't a lot of Super to live off. The Greens guy at my booth was going to lose 8k a year from his income of 60k. 

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8 minutes ago, dazaau said:

Nothing to do with the pension. $1.3m isn't a lot of Super to live off. The Greens guy at my booth was going to lose 8k a year from his income of 60k. 

But can you really get a pension if you have $1.3M and are getting $70K income? I might be in for an easier life than I thought in retirement.

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Just now, Ex-Hasbeen said:

But can you really get a pension if you have $1.3M and are getting $70K income? I might be in for an easier life than I thought in retirement.

I think I remember hearing all but the super rich get a "part pension" .

For the most part I think they are after the travel concessions and stuff rather than the token payment. 

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33 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

It's almost as if they wanted to make industry funds more popular

I wonder why...

Any conflict interest for you

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19 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

But can you really get a pension if you have $1.3M and are getting $70K income? I might be in for an easier life than I thought in retirement.

No. My wife and I are self funded and have roughly that amount in super between us and we are not entitled to a pension. We have shares in a couple of companies but  nothing worth much. We own our home, car etc. but we don’t have any investment properties to negative gear or other income.

We  had to sell our house in Hornsby and move to a regional area to afford retirement.

Edited by fiftyplus

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26 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

But can you really get a pension if you have $1.3M and are getting $70K income? I might be in for an easier life than I thought in retirement.

The franking credit policy had nothing to do with pensions specifically. You could happen to be a pensioner (E.g. a part pension or A full pension with small holdings) and lose some money from the change, but not 20k obviously! 

It affected retirees. Particuarly self managed super fund retirees.

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38 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

I voted lnp

but as facts are not popular here

https://www.alp.org.au/other/dividend-imputation-credits/

Interesting reading.

Whether I agree or disagree with this particular policy one thing I'd like to see is phased changes of policy.

What I mean, in this particular example, it was to be introduced in 6 weeks time. This could have major economic impacts to some people. People need to have time to readjust their investments etc. Both side implement dramatic change often after elections and it shits me.

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23 minutes ago, nealo said:

Whether I agree or disagree with this particular policy one thing I'd like to see is phased changes of policy.

What I mean, in this particular example, it was to be introduced in 6 weeks time. This could have major economic impacts to some people. People need to have time to readjust their investments etc. Both side implement dramatic change often after elections and it shits me.

Good points Nealo. I suspect the major issue with the imputation credits policy was the hint of retrospectivity about it. People have planned their retirement for years - possibly making the decision whether to retire or not based on the existing policy - were suddenly faced with moving goalposts.

The amounts don't matter - this was a principle issue and I believe most Australians believe their superannuation and its related earnings are theirs - and sacrosanct. People don't want to work and save for 50 years only to have their 'golden years' income tampered with.

Edited by trinube
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I wonder now the LNP have won, and people are now aware of the franking credit that may not have been before if this will end up costing a lot more? 

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3 hours ago, roxii said:

I wonder now the LNP have won, and people are now aware of the franking credit that may not have been before if this will end up costing a lot more? 

Maybe. I'm not sure if people who are secure with their industry or retail funds are going to suddenly change to self managed.

A tangentical point, the average superannuation of people my age (60) is $240,000. If that's what you intend on living on for the rest of your life I can see why they're so protective of every dollar. I'd be terrified - or working till I'm 80.

Edited by trinube

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14 minutes ago, trinube said:

Maybe. I'm not sure if people are secure with their industry or retail funds they're going to suddenly change to self managed.

A tangentical point, the average superannuation of people my age (60) is $240,000. If that's what you intend on living on for the rest of your life I can see why they're so protective of every dollar. I'd be terrified - or working till I'm 80.

I am going until 90, hopefully bunnings will still be around...

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3 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Any conflict interest for you

Oh please 

Dyson Heydon not going to a Liberal function was a massive conflict of interest 

But the brother of Labor's shadow industrial relations minister being the head of the CFMEU?  'Nothing to see here...'

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13 hours ago, dazaau said:

That's one pathway, another would be to give up on going to the University of Sydney or Melbourne and start out at a lower uni and/or lower course. Then you change unis/degrees when you prove yourself to be good. May take longer.

But I see what you are saying, but this is mostly an allocation problem.

I do despise the way atar is used to allocate limited course numbers. Just because atar is high doesn't mean the course is hard, just popular and limited. 

 

Ok, so we have just been through this process with my daughter in Year 12. For the course she's interested in (Vet Surgery), if she doesn't get 98 she will have to attend a regional Uni for 6 years. The cost of accommodation will be around $10K per year if she lives on campus. 

Using the Physio example: 4 years at 10K Undergrad CSP. $40K, plus $10K per year accomodation, another $40K. Won;t qualify for any govt assistance. So if her parents can't stump the accommodation cost the kid is up for $80,000 doing it the "easy" way at a regional Uni like Orange or Port Macquarie to use the Physio example. Plus social cost of moving away from family or friends, sport etc (may be a plus I realise)

And ATAR is used to artificially limit Undergrad enrolments and push people into the Masters course to make $$$$ for the Uni, there has been a horrendous shortage in labour in the Physio market over the last decade, this has recently improved but still hasn't caught up and the ATAR hasn't moved, the UG enrolments hasn't skyrocketed

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My point overall is, I would hate to go down the US pathway of tuition fees. We met a 30 year old primary school teacher in the States waiting tables 5 nights a week because he had to pay off his student loan. He had a wife and baby at home. This is working harder according to the obtuse politicians. This is shit in my book.

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1 hour ago, Prince said:

I am going until 90, hopefully bunnings will still be around...

Hit old Tone up for a loan. He's on $300K pension (indexed with pollies pay rises) for life, plus the business class golden ticket). Good going for a northern beaches battler.

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4 minutes ago, Parkside said:

to artificially limit Undergrad enrolments and push people into the Masters course to make $$$$ for the Uni, there has been a horrendous shortage in labour in the Physio market over the last decade, this has recently improved but still hasn't caught up and the ATAR hasn't moved, the UG enrolments hasn't skyrocketed

 

1 minute ago, Parkside said:

My point overall is, I would hate to go down the US pathway of tuition fees.This is working harder according to the obtuse politicians. This is shit in my book.

How are University fees set? Is it just some arbitrary number the University comes up with or are there fees stipulated by the government?

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1 hour ago, trinube said:

 

How are University fees set? Is it just some arbitrary number the University comes up with or are there fees stipulated by the government?

3 tiers set by federal government Top tier for highest paying professional degrees about $12K a year, second tier is 9,400, bottom tier 6,400 ish. 

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7 hours ago, BarryBevan said:

Shorty's message was okay

As long as the ALP believes that, they will be in opposition regardless of who the leader is. When the member for hunter has a 10% swing against him in Labor heartland, you know the message is crap 

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5 minutes ago, Mr Tinman said:

As long as the ALP believes that, they will be in opposition regardless of who the leader is. When the member for hunter has a 10% swing against him in Labor heartland, you know the message is crap 

Messaging was lame 

 

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Anyway I voted lnp

i don’t live pay to pay

wont be working at Bunnings till 90

will pay tuition for kids

the settings worked for me

if you live pay to pay and will work till 90 maybe not

 

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1 minute ago, BarryBevan said:

Messaging was lame 

They had enough people pushing it for them. ACTU, Getup, Teachers' Union, Nurses, Drs, CFMEU etc

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2 hours ago, Parkside said:

My point overall is, I would hate to go down the US pathway of tuition fees. We met a 30 year old primary school teacher in the States waiting tables 5 nights a week because he had to pay off his student loan. He had a wife and baby at home. This is working harder according to the obtuse politicians. This is shit in my book.

I agree the US model is nasty. I recall one disaster in which someone couldn't pay back their student loan on time as they were trying to find a legal job after finishing their law degree. This resulted in a bad debts which barred them from practicing law in the state. #winning

The ATAR stuff irks me. Doctors are a good example. There is seemingly a shortage of doctors as most of the doctors I have seen are from overseas. The required ATAR score is very high to get in, and attracts "smart" people - who may or may not give a stuff about their patients. I think it is sad that if you really want to help people you need to be in the top 2% in your state at sitting an exam. There are also people who are very smart and have a love for education and teaching but don't want to get a teaching degree because it is "wasting" their high ATAR score. 

One option for sneaking around these things is also to work for a while and then enrol as a mature age student. I managed to get a degree from a G8 university without an ATAR score at all, so strange things are possible when you step outside the system. 

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38 minutes ago, BarryBevan said:

Messaging was lame 

 

This is the problem with the modern ALP

They tell people what they want rather then asking them what they would like 

As I said before, ask No Coal Joel  how that worked for him 

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3 minutes ago, dazaau said:

One option for sneaking around these things is also to work for a while and then enrol as a mature age student. I managed to get a degree from a G8 university without an ATAR score at all, so strange things are possible when you step outside the system. 

You're in the majority.

Only 26% of students gain entry to university using their ATAR.

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2 minutes ago, dazaau said:

I agree the US model is nasty. I recall one disaster in which someone couldn't pay back their student loan on time as they were trying to find a legal job after finishing their law degree. This resulted in a bad debts which barred them from practicing law in the state. #winning

The ATAR stuff irks me. Doctors are a good example. There is seemingly a shortage of doctors as most of the doctors I have seen are from overseas. The required ATAR score is very high to get in, and attracts "smart" people - who may or may not give a stuff about their patients. I think it is sad that if you really want to help people you need to be in the top 2% in your state at sitting an exam. There are also people who are very smart and have a love for education and teaching but don't want to get a teaching degree because it is "wasting" their high ATAR score. 

One option for sneaking around these things is also to work for a while and then enrol as a mature age student. I managed to get a degree from a G8 university without an ATAR score at all, so strange things are possible when you step outside the system. 

The interview process weeds many of those ones out.

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