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19 minutes ago, FatPom said:

How is that related to working harder?

I think tin man is meaning each job has significant pressures, stress and demands. it is impossible to compare job responsibilities and who works harder and who deserves more, but equally in my opinion you can't necessarily blame the government if you don't have enough money or can't afford to get into the housing market.

 I guess you have to have some responsibility. we all hear of stories how our parents did it so tough, mine did, so my dad created his own opportunities to earn more, he didn't wait for his wage to go up or tax cuts or first home buyers assistance. So maybe potato's comment has some merit. 

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12 hours ago, symo said:

Jeez have you ever listened to Alan Jones?

Have you?

Of the snippets of Jones that I've seen on Sky over the past few weeks, what he has actually been saying is that Australians don't like their intelligence being insulted by someone who can't (or more likely doesn't want to) tell them how much his radical socialist agenda is going to cost

The leftist media was rather amusing to read yesterday, full of "wow, nobody saw this coming" pieces.  Which shows they have absolutely no idea what the conservative commentators they despise so much are actually saying

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21 hours ago, goughy said:

And if you want to think that I have an attitude problem about wealthier people, well out of all my friends here, there wouldn't be one whose family income is less than triple what ours is!  Most would be much higher than that.  Not one of those people think less of me because of it, and I don't covert what they have.  I love my family and I would, and do do everything I can for them.  That is all I need in life.

 

11 hours ago, FatPom said:

I’ve yet to see anyone on here look down on low income earners, not sure where that’s coming from?

I don't think that's what he was saying about here??

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11 hours ago, trinube said:

A funny thing I read about a week ago. A Labor supporter was berating the Liberals because house prices have dropped 10% in the past 12 months. I'm still not entirely sure what their position is.

And that is the problem with both sides hose prices go up, the party in power says we are increasing your wealth, the opposition says its becoming unaffordable. 

House prices go down: Govt says we are working to make it affordable, opposition says you are sending mortgage strapped battlers to the wall. 

They both try and take points out of something that in little old Aust. is greatly out of their control. 

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9 hours ago, Cottoneyes said:

And this is why Newscorp can't be trusted.  Fake news if ever seen.  I'm not afraid to call them out for this and the false reporting:

 

Jane Caro and Meshel Laurie are not celebrities.  Come on Donald, where's the tweet calling this one out?

Don't worry, she has woken up to find people have been mean back and scored an article in the age claiming she is a victim of mean people. :bangin:

https://www.theage.com.au/federal-election-2019/an-election-tweet-a-barrage-of-abuse-in-response-a-plea-for-civility-20190519-p51p13.html

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Quote

Have you?

Unfortunately, occasionally yes - are you telling me he doesn't insult the intelligence of anyone he doesn't like, you may need to listen to a bit more of his radio show.  Your snippets may not be giving you enough of a picture.

Edited by symo

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I know what Goughy is getting at in his post. After being made redundant at the age of 55yo and getting very little payout, and not being able to get a job in my trade, I managed to get a job in a hospital as a wards man and porter. I have seen the best and worst in human behaviour from patients and staff. I have also witnessed contempt, abuse, racism and sexism towards the lower paid staff. Cleaners, kitchen staff, wards man etc. would be earning around the $20-23 an hour and a lot of them are, like me at the time, under employed, uni students or just normal hard working people trying to pay the bills. To be told to work harder or get a better job by smug politicians, like Joe Hockey is an insult.

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50 minutes ago, fiftyplus said:

 smug politicians, like Joe Hockey

One of my per hates is hearing about Uni Fees from politicians who went through Uni for free. One of the best things we could do to promote people into better jobs is to offer them free higher education.

Edited by trinube
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12 hours ago, FatPom said:

Come a walk a mile in my corporate ‘easy street’ shoes ( or Ex’) then you’ll have a shiny new definition of the word ‘stress’. Swinging a hammer and lifting shit is exhausting but here’s a newsflash, so is constantly dealing with demand, performance and SLT gymnastics.

 

2 hours ago, Mr Tinman said:

and in the same vein, try being self employed and having pricks delaying paying you, the mortgage payment is due, the credit card is maxed and the cupboard is empty.🙂

You're both right.

All jobs have greater and lesser stresses - they just come in different forms. I work in a deadline industry and a couple of times a week the stress is incredible. It's not Multi-million dollar win/lose type stress, but it's stress none-the-less. I can appreciate you both have considerable stresses in your jobs, even through they might be polls apart in function.

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19 minutes ago, trinube said:

One of my per hates is hearing about Uni Fees from politicians who went through Uni for free.

+1 including TAFE fees and Tax evasion.

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1 hour ago, roxii said:

And that is the problem with both sides house prices go up, the party in power says we are increasing your wealth, the opposition says its becoming unaffordable. House prices go down: Govt says we are working to make it affordable, opposition says you are sending mortgage strapped battlers to the wall.

Exactly, and they'll both offer hand outs to first home buyers which automatically translates into the same amount being added to the price of a home. They'd be far better off negotiating with the States to lower stamp duty - one of the most mind numbingly stupid and extraordinarily profitable taxes known to man. While they're at it, maybe discuss the rate of the GST.

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2 hours ago, roxii said:

 

They both try and take points out of something that in little old Aust. is greatly out of their control. 

Agree, House prices you would think are out of their control.

I am happy with a government if  they create opportunities for someone to get ahead, assist those who are really struggling (so many don't even have a roof to sleep under), let alone buying their first house, and make sure those who do 'work harder' are rewarded and not penalised. i guess the rest is up to us, . The rest is up to the individual. 

I myself wish they would let people tap into their super for their first home, I do get jealous though that everything is for 'the first home buyer'. I think if you don't own a house, you should also be allowed to access our super to live in a house. I can't get a house and don't qualify for first home buyers as i had one when i was married but the divorce and subsequent house sale put me in debt  I don't know what that could do to the market though. 

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20 minutes ago, Prince said:

Agree, House prices you would think are out of their control.

I am happy with a government if  they create opportunities for someone to get ahead, assist those who are really struggling (so many don't even have a roof to sleep under), let alone buying their first house, and make sure those who do 'work harder' are rewarded and not penalised. i guess the rest is up to us, . The rest is up to the individual. 

I myself wish they would let people tap into their super for their first home, I do get jealous though that everything is for 'the first home buyer'. I think if you don't own a house, you should also be allowed to access our super to live in a house. I can't get a house and don't qualify for first home buyers as i had one when i was married but the divorce and subsequent house sale put me in debt  I don't know what that could do to the market though. 

I think the greater issue is not a supply of money issue, but a supply of housing. If you allow access to super you just push up prices from the increased money supply. There are only two real ways to fix housing affordability - lower demand or increase supply. Everything else just distorts the market. 

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1 hour ago, trinube said:

Exactly, and they'll both offer hand outs to first home buyers which automatically translates into the same amount being added to the price of a home. They'd be far better off negotiating with the States to lower stamp duty - one of the most mind numbingly stupid and extraordinarily profitable taxes known to man. While they're at it, maybe discuss the rate of the GST.

stamp duty is evil. 

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4 hours ago, FatPom said:

How is that related to working harder?

As Prince says, their is almost always more to every job than one can see with a quick look at what others do.

just because I’m on the tools doesn’t mean I don’t have other pressure to deal with being self employed 

At least your pay is in your account every payday without you having to chase it up

I can’t always say the same thing 

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12 hours ago, Tyno said:

It’s not a bad idea, it just isn’t the answer to addressing systemic issues and disadvantages that many people face. 

It's not the answer to everything, but it certainly helps. Genuinely disadvantaged people rely on governments to have sensible policies which promote equality and provide sustainable and adequate safety nets.

More importantly, there needs to be processes in place to eliminate the reason they were disadvantaged in the first place. No point treating the symptoms without treating the cause.

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I think what we can clearly establish is that whether you are rich, well off, comfortable, struggling or poor nobody likes to be told that the way they are living their life is something that they should be ashamed of.  Most of us are simply trying to do the best we can for ourselves and our families and nobody wants to be told they should feel guilty for that.  The unpredicted results that we have seen in the U.S. and now Australian elections is a sign of this, the private thoughts are no longer spoken because of the simplistic labels used to belittle them.  

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I've gotta say, I didnt think our country was this close in voting.

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3 hours ago, trinube said:

One of my per hates is hearing about Uni Fees from politicians who went through Uni for free. One of the best things we could do to promote people into better jobs is to offer them free higher education.

It would be nice, but how do we pay for that?  Especially when there are way more degrees than ever before for jobs that didn't have degrees previously.

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21 minutes ago, Turtle said:

It would be nice, but how do we pay for that?  Especially when there are way more degrees than ever before for jobs that didn't have degrees previously.

Perhaps cost could be weighed toward the demand for the role. For example an arts degree in ancient Himalayan theology would cost $500k, where as a highly in demand role would be subsidized

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2 minutes ago, more said:

Perhaps cost could be weighed toward the demand for the role. For example an arts degree in ancient Himalayan theology would cost $500k, where as a highly in demand role would be subsidized

This is my way of thinking to a large extent. Professional degrees (those with almost certainty of employment) are free/heavily subsidised. Other degrees which might be nice to do, but may or may not readily lead to employment, much pricier.

And for heavens sake, stop forcing kids who haven't got a clue what they want to do to go to uni, just because........get a job, do national service, whatever (except laze around mooching off your parents), but don't go and take up space and money at uni.

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26 minutes ago, Turtle said:

It would be nice, but how do we pay for that?  Especially when there are way more degrees than ever before for jobs that didn't have degrees previously.

I don't pretend to be an economist but sometime we have to find a way.

Our 10% GST currently raises about $55 billion a year. Take it to 11% and there's $5.5 billion we could put into further education. That's a lot of courses.

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7 minutes ago, more said:

Perhaps cost could be weighed toward the demand for the role. For example an arts degree in ancient Himalayan theology would cost $500k, where as a highly in demand role would be subsidized

And then you look at the current way of paying for it. That person billed $500K will never pay for it anyway, cause they'll never earn enough in Australia to start paying HECS, or whatever it's called now.

 

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1 minute ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

And then you look at the current way of paying for it. That person billed $500K will never pay for it anyway, cause they'll never earn enough in Australia to start paying HECS, or whatever it's called now.

 

Or change that. You can get HECS if you're likely to get a job. You can't if it's an 'interest' degree.

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20 minutes ago, Turtle said:

It would be nice, but how do we pay for that?  Especially when there are way more degrees than ever before for jobs that didn't have degrees previously.

I don't get people whinging about university fees etc. You don't pay up front. You don't have to go to university. 60 per cent of your fees are paid for by other peoples taxes. WHAT MORE DO PEOPLE WANT.

I "hate" paying my HECS back, but I'm earning a lot more than I would have without my degree so I'm happy to pay, after all, I benefit more from my education than anyone else - and I'm only paying for 40% of it! What could be fairer (apart from me paying for more of it perhaps)? 

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3 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

And then you look at the current way of paying for it. That person billed $500K will never pay for it anyway, cause they'll never earn enough in Australia to start paying HECS, or whatever it's called now.

 

and normal hecs is a lot to be in deb for and they are usually young and still need to get into the real estate market. It is going to be pretty tough for kids in the future

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8 minutes ago, Prince said:

and normal hecs is a lot to be in deb for and they are usually young and still need to get into the real estate market. It is going to be pretty tough for kids in the future

They should just work harder..

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59 minutes ago, dazaau said:

I "hate" paying my HECS back, but I'm earning a lot more than I would have without my degree so I'm happy to pay

I paid a HECS debt for a degree I never used, but I didn’t complain about it, I was grateful for the opportunity the taxpayers afforded me in going to uni

Both kids are now racking up HECS/ HELP debts and I’m just happy they’re getting a tertiary education 

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1 hour ago, Katz said:

This is my way of thinking to a large extent. Professional degrees (those with almost certainty of employment) are free/heavily subsidised. Other degrees which might be nice to do, but may or may not readily lead to employment, much pricier.

 

In our household

my wife has a BA in English Literature, and now earns in the top 10% contributing more tax a year than I earn in total.

I have a BE (chemical engineering) which is professional qualification, plus 2 other professional either Industry or Uni qual. And earn allot less.

Neither of us work in what we qualified in 30 years ago. But the piece off paper was handy over the years.

Additionally we now are in a situation where we pay all this tax, can't vote and our kids can't access hecs. So they are have gone/going to NZ to have zero fee's for first year Uni

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6 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

In our household

my wife has a BA in English Literature, and now earns in the top 10% contributing more tax a year than I earn in total.

I have a BE (chemical engineering) which is professional qualification, plus 2 other professional either Industry or Uni qual. And earn allot less.

Neither of us work in what we qualified in 30 years ago. But the piece off paper was handy over the years.

Additionally we now are in a situation where we pay all this tax, can't vote and our kids can't access hecs. So they are have gone/going to NZ to have zero fee's for first year Uni

Seems a high price to pay for not becoming dual citizens! Your Kiwi friends will forgive you eventually...

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Just now, dazaau said:

Seems a high price to pay for not becoming dual citizens! Your Kiwi friends will forgive you eventually...

The Duel citizen is not a path open to Kiwi's like us who move back and forth.

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1 hour ago, Katz said:

This is my way of thinking to a large extent. Professional degrees (those with almost certainty of employment) are free/heavily subsidised. Other degrees which might be nice to do, but may or may not readily lead to employment, much pricier.

And for heavens sake, stop forcing kids who haven't got a clue what they want to do to go to uni, just because........get a job, do national service, whatever (except laze around mooching off your parents), but don't go and take up space and money at uni.

I agree. I know a few people who are 'professional students' - they have an alphabet of letters after their name but have never actually worked other than serving coffees in the Uni cafe. Perhaps there needs to be a restriction that once you've done a degree you need to work at least 2 years in that field before you can enrol for a new,  unrelated degree. You can still do it, but you pay up front.

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13 minutes ago, rory-dognz said:

In our household

my wife has a BA in English Literature, and now earns in the top 10% contributing more tax a year than I earn in total.

I have a BE (chemical engineering) which is professional qualification, plus 2 other professional either Industry or Uni qual. And earn allot less.

Neither of us work in what we qualified in 30 years ago. But the piece off paper was handy over the years.

Additionally we now are in a situation where we pay all this tax, can't vote and our kids can't access hecs. So they are have gone/going to NZ to have zero fee's for first year Uni

I agree it's an imperfect solution and there will always be exceptions. 

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2 hours ago, dazaau said:

I don't get people whinging about university fees etc. You don't pay up front. You don't have to go to university. 60 per cent of your fees are paid for by other peoples taxes. WHAT MORE DO PEOPLE WANT.

I "hate" paying my HECS back, but I'm earning a lot more than I would have without my degree so I'm happy to pay, after all, I benefit more from my education than anyone else - and I'm only paying for 40% of it! What could be fairer (apart from me paying for more of it perhaps)? 

We paid Mrs FP's degree up front,  semester by semester (IIRC).  There was a discount but we could only afford it because we both worked full time and she did her degree part time.  It sucked at the time but the thought of no lingering debt was a relief.

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2 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Looks like Tanya is not throwing her hat in the ring, even though she says she has the numbers.

said no truthful politician ever :lol:

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33 minutes ago, FatPom said:

We paid Mrs FP's degree up front,  semester by semester (IIRC).  There was a discount but we could only afford it because we both worked full time and she did her degree part time.  It sucked at the time but the thought of no lingering debt was a relief.

as long as you have a mortgage it makes sense to pay off your HECS last, given that the interest paid is lower than a mortgage and should you lose your job they won't ask for their money - unlike the mortgage payments. But it is nice to not have it dragging on your take home pay - I can't wait till mine is paid (but wait I shall have to....)

Edited by dazaau
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Chinese Sam wanted Wong. He may be out of touch. He must still be in the Jungle.

Edited by Prince

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I paid off my monstrous HECS debt a few years back, then promptly started a non-commonwealth supported post-graduate degree in another field, which I didn't end up finishing and obviously don't work in the area of. Sadly in a very short period of time I totalled up about the same amount in debt as I had previously paid off and will now likely be paying for an incomplete qualification for the remainder of my days. That I regret. The original debt which allows me the income I enjoy did not.

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I paid mine up front as I went. I studied part time, and there was still a 30% discount for paying up front. Considering I was already way over the threshold, and would have paid most of each semester off before the end of it, it was a no-brainer.

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30 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Looks like Tanya is not throwing her hat in the ring, even though she says she has the numbers.

Free tips for the Labor party.

Leave the past behind and have a proper clean out.

Chris Bowen is tarred with the same brush as Bill Shorten - his arrogance makes him unelectable.

Tanya Plebisek is much the same - she would clearly appeal to female voters but is unlikely to get broader support and there's the whole husband/heroin-trafficker thing.

Albo is popular but only slightly younger than me - by the next election he will be thinking more about retirement than moving into the Lodge. Maybe he's a sucker for punishment and wants to give it a go but 3 years is a long time in opposition - especially after spending the past 6 years there.

Joel Fitzgibbon is considering - he might be worth a go - he's not a star but he's also not offensive.

Tony Bourke can be a tosser but also a decent bloke. I've had a bit to do with him. Plays a bit of guitar and likes the same music as me - can't be all bad.

Penny Wong has already said she won't move to the lower house - that's good, I don't like her either.

It's time they faced the realisation the tactics and personnel of the past 6 years aren't the right people to win government. Rip off the band-aid and get some new blood in there. Falling back on Bowen or Plebisek would be disastrous. As much as I voted Libs this time around it would be nice to have a genuine, moderate alternative for next time.

The quality of a government will always be related to the quality of the opposition.

Edited by trinube

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3 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

I paid mine up front as I went. I studied part time, and there was still a 30% discount for paying up front. Considering I was already way over the threshold, and would have paid most of each semester off before the end of it, it was a no-brainer.

30% discount. Totally worth it. Gone are those days! 

Like Katz I also studied in a non CSP place post my money earning degree. That one stings.  

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35 minutes ago, trinube said:

Free tips for the Labor party.

Leave the past behind and have a proper clean out.

Chris Bowen is tarred with the same brush as Bill Shorten - his arrogance makes him unelectable.

Tanya Plebisek is much the same - she would clearly appeal to female voters but is unlikely to get broader support and there's the whole husband/heroin-trafficker thing.

Albo is popular but only slightly younger than me - by the next election he will be thinking more about retirement than moving into the Lodge. Maybe he's a sucker for punishment and wants to give it a go but 3 years is a long time in opposition - especially after spending the past 6 years there.

Joel Fitzgibbon is considering - he might be worth a go - he's not a star but he's also not offensive.

Tony Bourke can be a tosser but also a decent bloke. I've had a bit to do with him. Plays a bit of guitar and likes the same music as me - can't be all bad.

Penny Wong has already said she won't move to the lower house - that's good, I don't like her either.

It's time they faced the realisation the tactics and personnel of the past 6 years aren't the right people to win government. Rip off the band-aid and get some new blood in there. Falling back on Bowen or Plebisek would be disastrous. As much as I voted Libs this time around it would be nice to have a genuine, moderate alternative for next time.

The quality of a government will always be related to the quality of the opposition.

Pretty close to my opinion as well, although you forgot with Tony Bourke that basketball lovers will get easily confused and think they are voting for Andrew Gaze.

Jason Clare or Andre Leigh would be other options.  Labor actually has more alternative leaders than the Libs do at this stage so all is not loss.  Figure out who they are, scrap the deals with the extremists and anything is possible in 3 years time

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14 minutes ago, trinube said:

Stock market seems happy - up over 100pts - 1.6%

Naturally 

The prospect of a Labor government is like kryptonite to financial markets 

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2 minutes ago, Cottoneyes said:

Jason Clare or Andre Leigh would be other options.  Labor actually has more alternative leaders than the Libs do at this stage so all is not loss.  Figure out who they are, scrap the deals with the extremists and anything is possible in 3 years time

Yeah, I forgot about Jason Clare - surprising given he's my local member and I've played golf with him a few times :)

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2 hours ago, trinube said:

I agree. I know a few people who are 'professional students' - they have an alphabet of letters after their name but have never actually worked other than serving coffees in the Uni cafe. Perhaps there needs to be a restriction that once you've done a degree you need to work at least 2 years in that field before you can enrol for a new,  unrelated degree. You can still do it, but you pay up front.

2 things for this:

1. No one should go to uni without some real life experience first.  Mature age students tend to do much better without the flip flopping between courses which in the long run saves alot of tax payers money (and lost opportunities for others).  You want to be an accountant - go work in a business and understand how they work so your studies mean more.  You want to be a doctor - go be an orderly in the hospital so you see what the coalface is like (and lose your god complex if you have one).  You want to be an engineer - go figure out what you are expecting the mechanics to put up with from your decisions before going onto study.

2. Why are degrees so expensive?  Why do unis need to exist in the real world with expensive real estate and buildings.  Granted some sciences need the land, but what business, arts or humanities degree couldn't be done online or out of the physical classroom? 

Then I could also go on about the lack of quality in lecturers who have never been in the real world, but hey, bring in point 1 above and this problem will drop off in a generation

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25 minutes ago, Cottoneyes said:

2 things for this:

1. No one should go to uni without some real life experience first.

2. Why are degrees so expensive?

Excellent points.

On point 1, and as Katz alluded to earlier, I think a lot of people end up in Uni because they have no idea what they want to do.

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6 minutes ago, trinube said:

Excellent points.

On point 1, and as Katz alluded to earlier, I think a lot of people end up in Uni because they have no idea what they want to do.

That was me, hence I got nearly three years though & decided it wasn't for me.

Throw in a few years working for a living, and I decided an Engineering degree in the field I was working in was:

1/ going to keep me interested in the study

2/ likely to land me a better job in a field I knew I could do OK in.

It did both.

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