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7 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

Strange that you'd get your facts from a lefty socialist organisation like the ABC.

 

 

 

Well I didn't want you whinging about Evil Rupert

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1 hour ago, IronJimbo said:

So I guess South Australia having among the highest electricity prices in the developed world has nothing to do with their Labor government getting rid of coal?

And Victoria having large increases in the cost of electricity has nothing to do with their Labor government getting rid of coal?

I think it had less to do with the technology and more to do with uncertainty and lack of decision making  - halting investment in either coal or renewables.  Big biz doesn't spend big bucks without a concrete and stable political and commercial enviro.

I don't think the Victorian Labour Govt actively got rid of anything.  Bracksie had Hazelwood green lighted until 2030 but Engle closed in it on the basis it was no longer eco. viable.  It was over 50 freak'n years old FFS - it was tech/OHS nightmare.

Shame, it was a good triathlon...

 

Edited by Pete

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Why don't we just invest in nukes?

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22 minutes ago, Pete said:

I think it had less to do with the technology and more to do with uncertainty and lack of decision making  - halting investment in either coal or renewables.  Big biz doesn't spend big bucks without a concrete and stable political and commercial enviro.

Of course

Nobody is going to build a coal fired plant if Shorten is promising to ban the stuff

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13 minutes ago, goughy said:

Why don't we just invest in nukes?

I'd seriously recommend going with the wisdom of Goughy*

 

 

 

*Assuming he is not being facetious

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I'm not!  As long as it's handled with absolutely no shortcuts!!!  

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1 hour ago, goughy said:

Why don't we just invest in nukes?

If you can’t see the absolute nonsense in the “nuclear energy is green and safe” argument, you need help. 

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2 minutes ago, Tyno said:

If you can’t see the absolute nonsense in the “nuclear energy is green and safe” argument, you need help. 

Telling people they need help is not a very good way of convincing them Tyno

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23 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Awesome.  I agree 100%

Do you feel dirty?

No, I'm a lefty, but even my long shaggy hair doesn't mean I'm a hippie Greenie lefty.  And if live is to go other options tyno, but will we actually do it properly?  

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There are renewable options that are cost-competitive with current coal technology, and some that are getting there.  But by and large, current coal technology is easier and cheaper as I read it (i.e. already in place, provides base load etc).

But this is changing fast with renewables becoming cheaper, storage, distributed energy solutions and the biggie - the need to upgrade coal technology to the latest technology as the old stuff wears out.  When that happens, coal will be more expensive than many renewables.  The other problem with a few big coal-fired power stations is the large efficiency losses in sending the electricity vast distances.

Small, decentralised energy options are the way to solve that efficiency problem, but the grid can't really cope with that yet due to limited capacity.

At present, catering for the unprecedented volume of renewable network connection enquiries (30GW) is not possible without network augmentation.  However, coal-fired retirements over the next 50 years are projected to reach 28GW of lost generation, freeing up considerable network capacity.

Edit to say, I don't have an idealistic opposition to nuclear, if it can be guaranteed to be done safely.  It has enormous potential.

Edited by ComfortablyNumb

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39 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Telling people they need help is not a very good way of convincing them Tyno

I’m not here to convince anyone. Just pointing out the bleeding obvious :D

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On 24/10/2018 at 12:31 PM, goughy said:

Why don't we just invest in nukes?

Good luck finding an electorate that would welcome that.

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5 hours ago, Paul Every said:

Good luck finding an electorate that would welcome that.

As with most issues, the first step is overcoming ideological opposition to even having a discussion about it

 

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2 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

As with most issues, the first step is overcoming ideological opposition to even having a discussion about it

 

same  issue we have with renewables

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1 hour ago, BarryBevan said:

same  issue we have with renewables

Yeah, pretty much

The idealogues usually don't like it when reliability is mentioned 

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2 hours ago, IronJimbo said:

Yeah, pretty much

The idealogues usually don't like it when reliability is mentioned 

From both sides yes, yes.

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I'd like to preserve human life rather than preserve a dated idea of quality of life for people in their last 15 years on the planet.

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ScoMo's 80's playlist on spotify only has one aussie song on it, Stimulation by Wa Wa Nee.  This should bring his decision process into question!!

https://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/scott-morrisons-unaustralian-spotify-playlist-backfires/news-story/49ef6d5123a268f83e0151efa308eb62

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On 24/10/2018 at 1:39 PM, Tyno said:

If you can’t see the absolute nonsense in the “nuclear energy is green and safe” argument, you need help. 

You do realise pretty much all of Europe, America and Canada are  nuclear powered? The whole fear mongering of nuclear power is massively overplayed...

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Not true about Canada. Nuclear makes up only 14% of there electricity generation (2011 numbers, but no new nuclear power plants in that  time).

  https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/www/pdf/publications/emmc/renewable_energy_e.pdf

 

Not true for US either. Nuclear: 20%. Renewable: 17%.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

 

And looks like not true for Europe either: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Electricity_production,_consumption_and_market_overview#Electricity_generation

In fact, from 2006 - 2016, Europe went from 29.4 % to 25.7 % from Nuclear, so it's actually reducing.

Edited by asmithaxe

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22 minutes ago, asmithaxe said:

Not true about Canada. Nuclear makes up only 14% of there electricity generation (2011 numbers, but no new nuclear power plants in that  time).

  https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/www/pdf/publications/emmc/renewable_energy_e.pdf

 

Not true for US either. Nuclear: 20%. Renewable: 17%.

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

 

And looks like not true for Europe either: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Electricity_production,_consumption_and_market_overview#Electricity_generation

In fact, from 2006 - 2016, Europe went from 29.4 % to 25.7 % from Nuclear, so it's actually reducing.

Thats nice. So if Australia built a plant would that mean we wouldn't be nuclear powered?

All those countries have nuclear plants and the world hasn't come to an end.

 

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22 minutes ago, more said:

Thats nice. So if Australia built a plant would that mean we wouldn't be nuclear powered?

All those countries have nuclear plants and the world hasn't come to an end.

 

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that those countries were majority nuclear power.

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3 hours ago, asmithaxe said:

I misunderstood. I thought you were saying that those countries were majority nuclear power.

All good. I just think people are unnecessarily scared of nuke power. If there is anywhere in the world that should use it it's Australia-no risk of earth quakes, tons of uranium and plenty of desert to bury the waste

 

But that's just my dumbarse opinion-which is great until one melts down I guess...

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3 minutes ago, more said:

All good. I just think people are unnecessarily scared of nuke power. If there is anywhere in the world that should use it it's Australia-no risk of earth quakes, tons of uranium and plenty of desert to bury the waste

 

But that's just my dumbarse opinion-which is great until one melts down I guess...

SA would be perfect.

Stable geologically, the largest known Uranium deposit in the world, and plenty of desert to bury any waste in. You could even put the reactor out in the desert.

It'd solve any renewables reliability issue?

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Just now, Ex-Hasbeen said:

SA would be perfect.

Stable geologically, the largest known Uranium deposit in the world, and plenty of desert to bury any waste in. You could even put the reactor out in the desert.

It'd solve any renewables reliability issue?

Of course

But as long as people like the Greens are out there pandering to NIMBYism by saying shit like every reactor could be another Chernobyl, the debate will never get off the ground

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8 minutes ago, IronJimbo said:

Of course

But as long as people like the Greens are out there pandering to NIMBYism by saying shit like every reactor could be another Chernobyl, the debate will never get off the ground

You have to look on the bright side of things. Apparently 600,000 people have been involved in the containment, clean-up and rehab of various areas after Chernobyl. Imagine what that would do to unemployment in SA.

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There have been a number of nuclear accidents since Chernobyl. There was Japan, which not only polluted the local area, but involved a airborne material drifting toward Tokyo, and they have identified low level nuclear material in the water as far away as north america. Also a tunnel collapse at a reprocessing plant in the US which exposed a number of workers and discharged radioactive dust into the atmosphere. A French power plant discharged contaminated water into the local environment. And apparently ANSTO is a bit slack with the only nuclear facility we have here in Australia.

Not exactly risk free.

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In the case of Fukoshima, wasn't the initial problem caused by the fact they underspeced the sea wall, probably to save money?  That's the one thing you can't do with nukes, try and cut costs.

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Nuclear power capacity worldwide is increasing steadily, with about 50 reactors under construction.

  • Most reactors on order or planned are in the Asian region, though there are major plans for new units in Russia.
  • Significant further capacity is being created by plant upgrading.
  • Plant lifetime extension programmes are maintaining capacity, particularly in the USA.

Today there are about 450 nuclear power reactors operating in 30 countries plus Taiwan, with a combined capacity of about 400 GWe. In 2017 these provided 2506 billion kWh, about 11% of the world's electricity.

About 50 power reactors are currently being constructed in 15 countries (see Table below), notably China, India, UAE and Russia.

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Start †   Reactor Model Gross MWe
2018 China, China Huaneng Shidaowan HTR-PM 210
2018 Korea, KHNP Shin Hanul 1 APR1400 1400
         
2019 Belarus, BNPP Ostrovets 1 VVER-1200 1194
2019 China, CGN Fangchenggang 3 Hualong One 1180
2019 China, CGN Hongyanhe 5 ACPR-1000 1119
2019 China, CGN Yangjiang 6 ACPR-1000 1086
2019 China, CNNC Fuqing 5 Hualong One 1150
2019 China, CGN Taishan 2 EPR 1750
2019 Finland, TVO Olkiluoto 3 EPR 1720
2019 France, EDF Flamanville 3 EPR 1650
2019 India, Bhavini Kalpakkam PFBR FBR 500
2019 Korea, KHNP Shin Kori 4 APR1400 1400
2019 Korea, KHNP Shin Hanul 2 APR1400 1400
2019 Russia, Rosenergoatom Pevek FNPP KLT40S x 2 70
2019 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 3 VVER-440 471
         
2020 Belarus, BNPP Ostrovets 2 VVER-1200 1194
2020 China, CGN Hongyanhe 6 ACPR-1000 1119
2020 China, CGN Fangchenggang 4 Hualong One 1180
2020 China, CNNC Tianwan 5 ACPR-1000 1118
2020 China, CNNC Fuqing 6 Hualong One 1150
2020 China, CGN Bohai shipyard ACPR50S 60
2020 Japan, Chugoku Shimane 3 ABWR 1373
2020 Russia, Rosenergoatom Novovoronezh II-2 VVER-1200 1195
2020 Slovakia, SE Mochovce 4 VVER-440 471
2020 UAE, ENEC Barakah 1 APR1400 1400
2020 UAE, ENEC Barakah 2 APR1400 1400
         
2021 Argentina, CNEA Carem25 Carem 29
2021 China, CNNC Tianwan 6 ACPR-1000 1118
2021 Pakistan Karachi/KANUPP 2 ACP1000 1100
2021 USA, Southern Vogtle 3 AP1000 1250
2021 UAE, ENEC Barakah 3 APR1400 1400
2021 UAE, ENEC Barakah 4 APR1400 1400
         
2022 India, NPCIL Kakrapar 3 PHWR-700 700
2022 India, NPCIL Kakrapar 4 PHWR-700 700
2022 India, NPCIL Rajasthan 7 PHWR-700 700
2022 India, NPCIL Rajasthan 8 PHWR-700 700
2022 Korea, KHNP Shin Kori 5 APR1400 1400
2022 Pakistan Karachi/KANUPP 3 ACP1000 1100
2022 Russia, Rosenergoatom Kursk II-1 VVER-TOI 1255
2022 Russia, Rosenergoatom Leningrad II-2 VVER-1200 1199
2022 USA, Southern Vogtle 4 AP1000 1250
         
2023 Bangladesh Rooppur 1 VVER-1200 1200
2023 China, CNNC Xiapu 1 CFR600 600
2023 Korea, KHNP Shin Kori 6 APR1400 1400
2023 Turkey Akkuyu 1 VVER-1200 1200
         
2024 Bangladesh Rooppur 2 VVER-1200 1200
         
2025 India, NPCIL Kudankulam 3 VVER-1000 1050
         
2026 India, NPCIL Kudankulam 4 VVER-1000 1050
2026 Japan, EPDC Ohma 1 ABWR 1383

Latest announced/estimated year of proposed commercial operation
Note: units where construction is currently suspended are omitted from the above Table.

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3 hours ago, more said:

plenty of desert to bury the waste

This is my biggest issue with it.

The "safe" storage is anything but.

Just making it someone else's problem.

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23 minutes ago, Tyno said:

This is my biggest issue with it.

The "safe" storage is anything but.

Just making it someone else's problem.

Yeah, but it's B@W's problem. Not ours Tyno. :)

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3 hours ago, asmithaxe said:

There have been a number of nuclear accidents since Chernobyl. There was Japan, which not only polluted the local area, but involved a airborne material drifting toward Tokyo, and they have identified low level nuclear material in the water as far away as north america. Also a tunnel collapse at a reprocessing plant in the US which exposed a number of workers and discharged radioactive dust into the atmosphere. A French power plant discharged contaminated water into the local environment. And apparently ANSTO is a bit slack with the only nuclear facility we have here in Australia.

Not exactly risk free.

How many people have died from radiation induced illnesses from those accidents since chernobyl?

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Yep, speaks volumes that he's their new NSW leader.  He stood her up this morning and left her to go on air alone on studio 10 (not that anyone would have been watching) and they intentionally left his chair vacant beside her and in frame, even with his glass of water!  Said he was double booked and doing an interview at the ABC.  Was spotted 30 minutes prior to the interview in a coffee shop near the 10 studios, and was caught by the ch10 cameras leaving a radio network studio (not ABC) next to ch10 thirty minutes after his interview time.

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57 minutes ago, goughy said:

Said he was double booked and doing an interview at the ABC.  

I thought Pauline said One Nation doesn’t do ABC 🤔

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Has anything to do with one nation ever not been pear shaped?

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Rumour has it he’s already been sacked from Katter’s party to save time. 

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I look forward to watching him shake hands with his opponent after losing the next election.

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55 minutes ago, A2K said:

I look forward to watching him shake hands with his opponent after losing the next election.

I think that handshake with Howard at the radio station was the defining point in Latham’s career 

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Omg that's what I've been thinking of since hearing this!

Like, I could see a right side conservative, or some independents going to one nation.  But a former Labor pollie, nah.  And former Labor leader, no matter how crap he was......

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On 06/11/2018 at 5:40 PM, asmithaxe said:

 And apparently ANSTO is a bit slack with the only nuclear facility we have here in Australia.

Not exactly risk free.

I would REALLY love to see the facts behind that opinion please

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33 minutes ago, Parkside said:

I would REALLY love to see the facts behind that opinion please

Sort of ironic isn't it how we stress about the risk of a nuclear accident, yet ride our bikes on the road, where we know there are rational people who suddenly become psychos when they see a cyclist in their way.  Even one of my most benign work colleagues says that when he sees cyclists riding 3-abreast, they become fair game!

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1 hour ago, ComfortablyNumb said:

Sort of ironic isn't it how we stress about the risk of a nuclear accident, yet ride our bikes on the road, where we know there are rational people who suddenly become psychos when they see a cyclist in their way.  Even one of my most benign work colleagues says that when he sees cyclists riding 3-abreast, they become fair game!

When likelihood and consequence are wildly overblown, you're naturally going to end up with a garbage risk assessment

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10 hours ago, asmithaxe said:

It was on a bunch of news outlets about 2 weeks ago:

https://news.google.com/search?q=lucas heights&hl=en-AU&gl=AU&ceid=AU%3Aen

 

The Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation (ANSTO) confirmed five workers reported receiving a dose of radiation, but it was not above allowable limits.

In a statement, the organisation said the equivalent dose of radiation was less than a chest X-ray.

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On 06/11/2018 at 4:49 PM, Ex-Hasbeen said:

SA would be perfect.

Stable geologically, the largest known Uranium deposit in the world, and plenty of desert to bury any waste in. You could even put the reactor out in the desert.

It'd solve any renewables reliability issue?

 

Nuclear power plants have an enormous water requirement for effective cooling. It would have to be built near the coast, limiting potential locations.

Then we have the political problem of where to build it.

Which state? Which electorates?

You could put a line through any of the more populous states to accept the idea, NSW, Vic, most of Qld, eastern SA, eastern Tas, probably WA from north of Geraldton to Albany.

Also cross off areas which are environmentally or culturally significant, eg GBReef would preclude all the way to Cape York, Tasmania's southwest, Great Australian Bight, Ningaloo coast of WA, much of NT coast.

I can't imagine it receiving much political or public support in SA, with the state's commitment to renewable technology only likely to gain greater investment in the future. 

A lot of WA already feels it props up the rest of Aust in the natural resources area, and like SA, has enormous areas suitable for solar and wind technologies, leaving nuclear to run a distant last to other energy generation methods in gaining political and public support.

So for those advocating nuclear, seriously where would we build it?

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14 minutes ago, Paul Every said:
 

Nuclear power plants have an enormous water requirement for effective cooling. It would have to be built near the coast, limiting potential locations.

Then we have the political problem of where to build it.

Which state? Which electorates?

You could put a line through any of the more populous states to accept the idea, NSW, Vic, most of Qld, eastern SA, eastern Tas, probably WA from north of Geraldton to Albany.

Also cross off areas which are environmentally or culturally significant, eg GBReef would preclude all the way to Cape York, Tasmania's southwest, Great Australian Bight, Ningaloo coast of WA, much of NT coast.

I can't imagine it receiving much political or public support in SA, with the state's commitment to renewable technology only likely to gain greater investment in the future. 

A lot of WA already feels it props up the rest of Aust in the natural resources area, and like SA, has enormous areas suitable for solar and wind technologies, leaving nuclear to run a distant last to other energy generation methods in gaining political and public support.

So for those advocating nuclear, seriously where would we build it?

Plenty of water in the Artisan Basin...

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