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USADA charges Armstrong - Part 2 - "Reasoned Decision"

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There is nothing even remotely suspect in that email trail. No nexus at all between drugs etc. Only training sets data and general banter.

 

 

No mention of drugs, yes, but it is proof that he was still using Ferrari while preparing for Ironman.

 

But people only go to Ferrari for training plans, right? :lol::rolleyes:

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No mention of drugs, yes, but it is proof that he was still using Ferrari while preparing for Ironman.

 

But people only go to Ferrari for training plans, right? :lol::rolleyes:

 

 

Objection. Speculation.

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Reading the Puerto documents...

 

Documents 8 to 29 are calendars or schedules of the 2005 season for each of the members of the LIBERTY team, including the different competitions in which each particular rider would take part, and in the case of some of them there were various handwritten notes:

...

 

- Document 23 refers to ALLAN DAVIS with handwritten notes for the use of EPO, hGH and IGF-1

 

 

Why was Davis cleared again?

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Geez @Vinokourov is telling people what he really thinks on twitter today!

 

swfzph.png

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Geez @Vinokourov is telling people what he really thinks on twitter today!

 

swfzph.png

 

 

Just one grub chatting to another druggy to druggy.

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Objection. Speculation.

 

 

True, it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, but are you really expecting people to believe that he continued working with the same doctor/coach, but gave up the doping products. Honestly? Are we going to play "head in the sand" again?

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Well apparently it is not Vino behind that twitter account.

 

 

Pro Team Astana @AstanaTeam

News - Alexandre Vinokourov is not associated with the@alexandreVino account. Tweets from that account are NOT the opinion of Alexandre

Edited by Rog

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True, it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, but are you really expecting people to believe that he continued working with the same doctor/coach, but gave up the doping products. Honestly? Are we going to play "head in the sand" again?

 

 

It isn't what you think you know mate, but what you can prove.

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Vaughters affadavit:

 

Early on at a Postal Service training camp I had a conversation with Lance in which he told me that the UCI should have detected a high level of HCG in his doping controls when he had cancer but had failed to do so. Thus, in Lance’s eyes, the UCI was somewhat at fault for the extent of his cancer. In any case Lance said, ‘if I ever have a doping problem, I have this card to play.’

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It isn't what you think you know mate, but what you can prove.

 

 

Yep, in a court of law you're right. However, Lance has opted to operate in the court of public opinion, so in this case, it's what I think. Probability would suggest I'm right.

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this is a good day for cycling...

 

im not happy or sad about the downfall of LA or the other big names... it just adds to their enterntainment value for me TBH..

 

i enjoyed their highs and i am also enjoying their lows...

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Vaughters affadavit:

 

 

Say this statement was made 2 years ago. 2010.

 

This conversation was early on in a US Postal camp. 99-2000. Lets keep it rounded 10 years.

 

I reckon to be able to remember a conversation word perfect 10 years later is pretty awesome. I mean it isn't even prefaced with words to the effect.

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if you're happy and you know it clap your hands...

 

Armstrong...down that corridor to Crucifixions

 

Vino-Contador-Millar -a shitload more...straight thru to the salad bar gents !!

 

I am in the Club AP...this will all blow over !! :smile1::smile1::smile1:

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Say this statement was made 2 years ago. 2010.

 

This conversation was early on in a US Postal camp. 99-2000. Lets keep it rounded 10 years.

 

I reckon to be able to remember a conversation word perfect 10 years later is pretty awesome. I mean it isn't even prefaced with words to the effect.

 

 

seriously? if we were talking about what Lance had for morning tea, Ok, but I reckon I'd have a pretty strong recollection about someone telling me stuff like that.

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I reckon to be able to remember a conversation word perfect 10 years later is pretty awesome. I mean it isn't even prefaced with words to the effect.

 

 

I reckon you'd easily remember the fact that Lance acknowledged that his use of growth hormone exacerbated his cancer and that he reckoned the UCI was partly responsible. That's a fairly large bombshell that would stand out in any person's memory.

 

PS: I can remember clearly where I was when Princess Diana died. That was 15 years ago.

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I reckon you'd easily remember the fact that Lance acknowledged that his use of growth hormone exacerbated his cancer and that he reckoned the UCI was partly responsible. That's a fairly large bombshell that would stand out in any person's memory.

 

PS: I can remember clearly where I was when Princess Diana died. That was 15 years ago.

 

 

You can remember where you were yes. Easy as, but what did the radio / TV say, word perfect that is.

 

Also remember these guys lived, trained, ate sleep, not shat with Lance so they would not have been star struck by him.

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No mention of drugs, yes, but it is proof that he was still using Ferrari while preparing for Ironman.

 

But people only go to Ferrari for training plans, right? :lol::rolleyes:

 

 

Um yeah they do. www.53x12.com

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You can remember where you were yes. Easy as, but what did the radio / TV say, word perfect that is.

 

 

He only quoted one sentence: "if I ever have a doping problem, I have this card to play." It's not like he's recalling Paradise Lost or something.

 

Also remember these guys lived, trained, ate sleep, not shat with Lance so they would not have been star struck by him.

 

 

I'm not suggesting they were, but he's fresh out of beating terminal cancer, reckons his doping may have contributed to it and they're discussing doping. I think that would stick in your mind. It would certainly stick in mine.

 

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There is nothing even remotely suspect in that email trail. No nexus at all between drugs etc. Only training sets data and general banter.

 

 

 

Must admit that was my thoughts - where are the references to doping ? Also 25k for a season is not a lot for the best tour rider at the time. There are triathletes paying that amount now.

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You can remember where you were yes. Easy as, but what did the radio / TV say, word perfect that is.

 

Also remember these guys lived, trained, ate sleep, not shat with Lance so they would not have been star struck by him.

 

 

Here's another one for you. May 1990, I've submitted my choices for Uni degree courses, opting to put Computer Science ahead of Chemical Engineering partly because it was 16hrs of lectures a week instead of 40. Exact words of my Mum (with v. disapproving look) "That's no way to pick a career.".

 

There's also the time a few months later when I showed her my HSC results. Her, sitting in bed one morning reading, me, standing by the bed handing her my results, her saying "You're a disgrace" because my results were quite a bit worse than I was capable of.

 

How's that? Perfect recollection of key phrases over 22 years later :)

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Dr Kenny Graham after NSWIS tests in Jan 1990 to me.... "you should never finish in the top half of the field in any triathlon... Haha.

 

You will never amount to anything.... My so called Father every day before he pissed off.

 

But it is hard to remember exact con is over time. In evidence this has to be weighted accordingly.

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Well apparently it is not Vino behind that twitter account.

 

Ah, I got caught out thinking it was Vino as well.

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Michael Rogers is a doper...

 

Leipheimer: "In May of 2005 I attended a second training camp on the island of Tenerife with Dr. Ferraro. THe purpose of my attendance at this camp was to train at altitude and to had Dr. Ferrari monitor my training. Alos present at the camp were Yaroslav Popovych, Andrey Kashechkin, Alexandre Vino and Michael Rogers."

 

"In June of 2005 I attended a third training camp with Dr. Ferrari... St. Moritz, Switzerland. Riders present included Salvoldello, Popo, Rogers and Eddy Mazzoleni."

 

 

So will all those riders be stripped of titles and banned? Rogers... Will Sky sack him now?

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So for all the others like me that wanted Lance to race Kona regardless of his PED use in the past, would you still want him there if he was on PEDs? I wouldn't.

 

Damn, he could be on them still! He has serious issues with his use of PED's/winning at sport, some kind of addiction maybe.

 

Should his recent Triathlon results should be removed also? What a mess, it would make a brilliant tell all book.

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Will LAs sponsors make a statement now? Or continue to ignore it all?

 

and how will that affect you? go to bed plz

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Levi Leipheimers statement. Acceptance of sanctions.

http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/LL+Acceptance+of+Sanction.pdf

 

A sanction of a 6 month period which began on the 1st of September, which makes him eligible to compete again from 1st of March.

A disqualification of all results and forfeiture of medals, points and prizes obtained from the period of June 1st 1999 through to July 30th 2006. Then again for the period of July 7 2007 to July 29 2007.

Also stepped down from the 2012 USA Olympic squad.

 

 

You can expect all the other riders who gave evidence to be given the same penalty depending on their time range of PED usage.

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Will LAs sponsors make a statement now? Or continue to ignore it all?

 

 

I think they will still keep their powder dry. And wait to see which way the public opinion moves.

If it blows over they may stay, say nothing was "proven" and appear loyal, while Im sure being inwardly pissed off. If it starts to go bad they can always say they were duped and lied to by Lance and pull out and heap it all back on him.

Id be surprised if they dont have a few options of press releases already written and being rewritten daily to be prepared for whatever might eventuate.

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Should his recent Triathlon results should be removed also? What a mess, it would make a brilliant tell all book.

 

I believe that would normally be the case, although I haven't seen much refering to his recent Triathlon racing.

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From an email from Stefano Ferrari (Dr Michelle Ferrari's son, whom Armstrong liased through in 09-10)

"Evans, nah... he doesn't have a team and he's dumb. Schleck? ...they both TT like crap"

Evans not so dumb after all.

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I think they will still keep their powder dry. And wait to see which way the public opinion moves.

If it blows over they may stay, say nothing was "proven" and appear loyal, while Im sure being inwardly pissed off. If it starts to go bad they can always say they were duped and lied to by Lance and pull out and heap it all back on him.

Id be surprised if they dont have a few options of press releases already written and being rewritten daily to be prepared for whatever might eventuate.

 

 

I guess Nike stuck by Tiger

hopefully Gruen Transfer will discuss on the next show :smile1:

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He has serious issues with his use of PED's/winning at sport, some kind of addiction maybe.

 

 

I was trying to stay out of this thread but this line has got me thinking. Is now the time for Lance to go the Tiger Woods and plead forgiveness on the basis that all of his actions were due to his mental issues and addiction? Try to foster public sympathy and play the victim? The revelation about the likely relationship between his cancer and PED use will erode his support base from that side as well I would think. Hard to feel sympathy for a self-inflicted wound but if he can turn it around to being a victim of his "addiction" it might be able to be salvaged.

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Nike stands behind Armstrong. They've re-issued their August 23rd statement:

"We are saddened that Lance Armstrong may no longer be able to participate in certain competitions and his titles appear to be impacted," said

 

the statement issued on Aug. 23

and Wednesday. "Lance has stated his innocence and has been unwavering on this position. Nike plans to continue to support Lance and the Lance Armstrong Foundation, a foundation that Lance created to serve cancer survivors."

 

 

http://www.oregonlive.com/playbooks-profits/index.ssf/2012/10/nike_stands_by_lance_armstrong.html

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I was trying to stay out of this thread but this line has got me thinking. Is now the time for Lance to go the Tiger Woods and plead forgiveness on the basis that all of his actions were due to his mental issues and addiction? Try to foster public sympathy and play the victim? The revelation about the likely relationship between his cancer and PED use will erode his support base from that side as well I would think. Hard to feel sympathy for a self-inflicted wound but if he can turn it around to being a victim of his "addiction" it might be able to be salvaged.

 

 

I may have missed this but where is "The revelation about the likely relationship between his cancer and PED use"

 

So far we have had speculation that HGH makes cancer 'grow' quicker - but what scientific evidence is there ?

 

If there is a likely relationaship why arent we seeing more cyclists get cancer ?

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I have nothing to add, other than to say that at least with most people on this board, we know where we stand.

 

Some tri websites are being contortionists in trying to avoid criticizing Armstrong.

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I have nothing to add, other than to say that at least with most people on this board, we know where we stand.

 

Some tri websites are being contortionists in trying to avoid criticizing Armstrong.

 

Slowtwitch? I think Empfield is terrified of being sued.

mention 'adverse analytical finding' or 'failed drug test' without categoric 100% proof and it gets deleted...

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I think it's fairly well documented that HGH accelerates the growth and spread of tumours. In fact, I'm not sure that they don't use growth hormone in the labs to create animal subjects. It doesn't cause the cancer as such but will increase growth and spread. I have read (but not sure where) that there is evidence that an excess of HGH increases the risks of certain cancers (prostate and breast I think) dramatically.

 

Note, it does not cause cancer but it makes it more aggressive. Remember LA's testicular cancer was life threatening because of how it had spread.

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And what did Armstrong choose as a response today?

 

To vindicate all the cynics who have accused him of using Livestrong as a PR shield.

 

Armstrong on Twitter less than an hour ago - "What am I doing tonight? Hanging with my family, unaffected, and thinking about this...http://mediaroom.livestrong.org/press-releases/the-lance-armstrong-foundation-celebrates-15-years-0940424 "

 

Classic Armstrong. Lance Armstrong has been reduced to a sporting pariah. Isolated & cast out.

 

To continue to support Armstrong & attack USADA/WADA & Armstrong's critics is to support doping & cheats in sport.

 

Sadly we have a few would be leaders & alpha males on this forum who fall into that category.

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I may have missed this but where is "The revelation about the likely relationship between his cancer and PED use"

 

So far we have had speculation that HGH makes cancer 'grow' quicker - but what scientific evidence is there ?

 

If there is a likely relationaship why arent we seeing more cyclists get cancer ?

 

here's one from a cancer prevention site.

http://www.preventcancer.com/avoidable/breast_cancer/hgh_risks.htm

 

Do a google search for "HGH human growth hormone cancer risk" you should find a long list of prospective links.

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Some tri websites are being contortionists in trying to avoid criticizing Armstrong.

 

But they also think an American will win Kona :lol:

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Anyone caught & convicted using PED'S or any illegal substances in pro cycling or in any sport for that matter, should be banned for life.

 

I'm wondering now whether Michael Rogers & others were using PED's prior to this years TdF? Was Rogers up the front of the Sky team 'digging into the suitcase of courage' or was he digging into the 'suitcase of PED's?

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here's one from a cancer prevention site.

http://www.preventca...r/hgh_risks.htm

 

Do a google search for "HGH human growth hormone cancer risk" you should find a long list of prospective links.

 

 

Done - so was he using HGH prior to Cancer ?

 

Having had too much exposure to this disease i find it hard to fathom why you would take this risk - or maybe he wasnt aware of any link ?

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Done - so was he using HGH prior to Cancer ?

 

Yep, I think it was Hincape's comments refering to Armstrong use of HGH prior to being diagnosed with cancer.

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