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USADA charges Armstrong - Part 2 - "Reasoned Decision"

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This is what you dont get, I (and I think lots of others) too feel similarly about the racing in that era, I think it was entertaining and great to watch. That doesnt mean I dont think guys should be held accountable for cheating. The sport needs to be cleaned up. For the health of the sport and the health of the riders. I dont know what to do about past races, I dont really care if Lances name stays on the titles he won, but it needs to be clear that he didnt win it clean.

Its about cleaning up drawing a line and moving forward, if we keep pretending its all ok we will still be having this discsussion in 20 years.

 

 

I dont think anyone is in any doubt, but I have objections about singling out one man.... I mean do we go back to Hinault, Merckx and all of them? Riis has fessed up, Pantani and Fignon are dead, there are a few Aussies that raced and did well in that era, and that may be very unpalatable for a few of the zealots on here.

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Mafia Bosses, Drug Importers, Gang Leaders, I thought it was common practice and important on a functional level as well as a symbolic level to go after and prosecute the heads of organised crime.

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I dont think anyone is in any doubt, but I have objections about singling out one man.... I mean do we go back to Hinault, Merckx and all of them? Riis has fessed up, Pantani and Fignon are dead, there are a few Aussies that raced and did well in that era, and that may be very unpalatable for a few of the zealots on here.

 

 

 

How is one man being singled out? Has nobody else been given a ban? I thought Jan was banned because his dog's name was on a bag of blood. And the blood was still in the bag therefore he hadn't even used it. Yet he was still given a ban, after he retired. Or did I totally misunderstand what happened.

 

Kylee :)

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I dont think anyone is in any doubt, but I have objections about singling out one man.... I mean do we go back to Hinault, Merckx and all of them? Riis has fessed up, Pantani and Fignon are dead, there are a few Aussies that raced and did well in that era, and that may be very unpalatable for a few of the zealots on here.

 

 

How is he being singled out? He's the LAST one to get his comeuppance. All the other big riders of his era have taken the fall, so arguing that he's the somehow the only one being prosecuted for the sins of that decade is taking the piss a bit. In fact it's pretty clear that the only way he has been singled out is for special treatment from the UCI, which is the ONLY reason he has yet to serve a drug ban.

 

You can't turn a new leaf when then biggest doper of the last 20 years is the only one who hasn't been prosecuted.

Edited by Donncha
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Mafia Bosses, Drug Importers, Gang Leaders, I thought it was common practice and important on a functional level as well as a symbolic level to go after and prosecute the heads of organised crime.

 

 

Yes it is. People using performance enhancing drugs in sport dont fit under that category. Unless you are talking about horse racing, greyhounds, soccer, or things where real money can be made and laundered through sports betting etc or morphed into laundering of money through recreational drugs. To my knowledge people arent getting bumped off for tackling up in cycling.

 

Actually if you want an education into real 'badness' have a read of Michael Duffys book 'Bad' about Anthony Perish and his cohorts or just wander down to J&B and buy the new Underbelly series now its out. That all really happened and there are a lot more stories like that one. Also gives you an idea of what real investigators actually do as opposed to the amateurs and cake eaters who investigate PED use.

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....................., accused the agency of relying on “serial perjurers” for testimony and using big tobacco lawyers to persecute the world’s foremost advocate for cancer patients.

 

“This reasoned decision will be a farce, written by USADA with the significant assistance of lawyers from one of Big Tobacco’s favorite law firms at a time when Lance Armstrong is one of America’s leading anti-tobacco advocates,” Herman wrote, according to USA Today. “While USADA can put lipstick on a pig, it still remains a pig.”

 

The Irony of this is Armstrong employs the services of Patton Bloggs (as seen here in his reply to USADA).

 

This is obviously just another smear attempt by Armstrong and his laywers. They know USADA won't respond. The smear goes out into general media were the target audience is the general public nieve to the scenario and his current followers and those throughout the cancer fields (otherwise why accuse a law firm of working for tobacco industries).

That audience will follow suite.

Outside of that target audience, people will know better and it's just another smear tactic.

Funny thing is, didn't Armstrong say he was tired of fighting and not going to contest, look into the future and not the past etc. etc. Why is he and his lawyers still working to defend, but don't want to step into the arbitration court?

 

 

Patton Bloggs have been employed to lobby for smokeless tobacco & the tobacco industry.

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/keyraces98/stories/wa050898.htm

In an illustration of the pervasiveness of tobacco money, however, McCain is scheduled to appear at a $500-a-head fund-raiser sponsored by lawyers at the lobbying firm Patton Boggs –

 

http://archive.tobacco.org/news/50517.html

 

Pot meet Kettle.

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Wasn't really into cycling much when LA was winning. But for comparison I went to see MJ win gold at Sydney Olympics. Far from being motivated and entertained, now just see a disgraced cheat. Likewise LA.

 

(Watched all the Under Belly serieses(sic), reckon amongst best TV shows to come out of Australia. Part of what I got from latest UB was a singleminded cop inspiring a team to pursue for a decade what he saw as a ringleader.)

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The Irony of this is Armstrong employs the services of Patton Bloggs (as seen here in his reply to USADA).

 

This is obviously just another smear attempt by Armstrong and his laywers. They know USADA won't respond. The smear goes out into general media were the target audience is the general public nieve to the scenario and his current followers and those throughout the cancer fields (otherwise why accuse a law firm of working for tobacco industries).

That audience will follow suite.

Outside of that target audience, people will know better and it's just another smear tactic.

Funny thing is, didn't Armstrong say he was tired of fighting and not going to contest, look into the future and not the past etc. etc. Why is he and his lawyers still working to defend, but don't want to step into the arbitration court?

 

 

Patton Bloggs have been employed to lobby for smokeless tobacco & the tobacco industry.

from http://www.washingto...es/wa050898.htm

 

 

http://archive.tobac...news/50517.html

 

Pot meet Kettle.

 

 

I think you might be missing the point of the latest salvo.... As you pointed out PB are lobby lawyers.... This looks to me to be part of a revenge/change strategy not a classic defense.

 

LA knows he can't vindicate himself under the current rule set and USADA construct. Hence his decision to opt out of that process..... But if in a few years time (it will take a while) the whole USADA is restructured and a link can be drawn back to the way the the LA situation was handled it supports LA's current PR stance.

 

LA is playing a pretty smart long term game here one that TT & Co and the USADA in its current form will struggle to survive.

 

Cam

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Maybe I guess, but I kind of think Armstrong doesn't really care about righting wrongs (as he sees them) within the procedure as whole for future athletes.

 

I tend to think it's just a simple current PR stunt.

Bad Tobacco Industry/USADA black knight v's Anti Tobacco peoples hero Armstrong white knight crusader.

That's the picture they are trying to paint (and have been working on that painting for a while now).

 

I don't think he gives a rats about the procedure, only that he gets off the hook.

Hence the previous court case, UCI trying to take jurisdiction and lobbying within the government regarding funding to USADA etc. I would say he just wants it dropped not to change the system for future good.

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It is really getting ridiculous now. This today from Armstrong's Lawyer, Tim Herman. Is he lifting his material from Transitions?

 

 

Lance Armstrong’s legal team has hit out at the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in anticipation of USADA’s move this week to transfer its case file concerning Armstrong’s doping case to the UCI. USA Todayreported Tuesday that Armstrong attorney Tim Herman, in a letter addressed to USADA counsel Bill Bock and obtained by the newspaper, accused the agency of relying on “serial perjurers” for testimony and using big tobacco lawyers to persecute the world’s foremost advocate for cancer patients.

 

“This reasoned decision will be a farce, written by USADA with the significant assistance of lawyers from one of Big Tobacco’s favorite law firms at a time when Lance Armstrong is one of America’s leading anti-tobacco advocates,” Herman wrote, according to USA Today. “While USADA can put lipstick on a pig, it still remains a pig.”

 

http://velonews.comp...edium=whats-hot

 

 

 

For the first time in this discussion I agree with you, the cancer card and a big tobacco conspiracy, all we need is the smoking man from the X files. Quite silly

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Im just curious other than making a few people feel good about themselves what this is going to achieve?

 

There seems to be this groupthink pervading that we are doing it for our kids so they can race clean bla bla, but since man has picked up a rock and there has been a few bob on for it, people have found ways to cheat.

 

When we are talking about big monetary rewards no matter what the sport or for that matter any human placing a value on it, people will cheat and find ways to do it. Chemicals are a very effective way of doing and pharmaceuticals are evolving every day.

 

Will fat loss drugs be the next big PED banned? Once again and reading from Tylers book he would happlily have lost three more pounds than raise his HCT three more points..... think about that.

 

Hence the biggest performance enhancer is to be as light as you can without being f-ked. I had to laugh as it appears I was using a few of the legal performance enhancing techniques advocated by Bjarne Riis regarding weight loss, i.e. dont eat train all day come home drink a bottle of soda water and take a handful of sleeping tablets, wake up, repeat.

 

Not fun but it worked.

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Funny how we take what we want out of a piece and ignore stuff that doesn't fit our frame of view. Was interesting that Tyler said in an interview with David Walsh (not in book) that another of the big advantages with EPO was that it enables you to train your ass off for seven hours and then not eat the whole fridge. Not to mention get up and do it agin the next day. That's why I reckon you get popped once you should be done for life. Maybe the effects of the drugs wear off but I reckon the effect of training on drugs never does.

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Im just curious other than making a few people feel good about themselves what this is going to achieve?

 

There seems to be this groupthink pervading that we are doing it for our kids so they can race clean bla bla, but since man has picked up a rock and there has been a few bob on for it, people have found ways to cheat.

 

When we are talking about big monetary rewards no matter what the sport or for that matter any human placing a value on it, people will cheat and find ways to do it. Chemicals are a very effective way of doing and pharmaceuticals are evolving every day.

 

Will fat loss drugs be the next big PED banned? Once again and reading from Tylers book he would happlily have lost three more pounds than raise his HCT three more points..... think about that.

 

Hence the biggest performance enhancer is to be as light as you can without being f-ked. I had to laugh as it appears I was using a few of the legal performance enhancing techniques advocated by Bjarne Riis regarding weight loss, i.e. dont eat train all day come home drink a bottle of soda water and take a handful of sleeping tablets, wake up, repeat.

 

Not fun but it worked.

 

 

Yet you became a cop right? <_<

 

Surely someone gave you the same lecture about crime.....right?

 

You cant stop it. You'll never stop crime. But you still became a cop.

 

And you lecture those who want to see our sport policed & cheats bought down. <_<

 

Whats your solution? Anarchy?

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David Walsh just tweeted "USADA has written a summary, circa 200 pages, that will be available to public. Perhaps some time today. Thousands of pages in full report."

 

200 page summary!? Even allowing for long-winded legalese bullshit that's a lot of info.

Edited by Donncha

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"Thousands" of pages :blink: being sent to the UCI and WADA. Armstrongs gets one at the same time, I assume it's the same document as the UCI and WADA are receiving.

For everyone else a 200 page summary, said to be out some time today as well.

Something to read over breakfast in the morning by the sounds.

David Walsh@DavidWalshST

 

USADA report on Armstrong and US Postal doping will be with UCI today (Wed). Verbruggen and McQuaid can hardly wait to read it.

 

 

 

Vino came out swinging.

 

 

Alexandre Vinokourov@AlexandreVino

@DavidWalshST I could summarize report in two words: @LanceArmstrong Doper!

 

 

Alexandre Vinokourov@AlexandreVino

@LanceArmstrong I am so looking forward to you calling all your team workers/captains liars who testified over your career. #nospinelance!

 

 

Could be a busy day in all forms of media (network and social) tomorrow.

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The United States Anti-Doping Agency released its file today to the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), cycling’s world governing body, with a recommendation that Lance Armstrong be stripped of his 7 Tour de France titles.

 

The accompanying USADA press statement lists 11 athletes who gave testimony in the case against Armstrong, and names the athletes: Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

 

Hincapie released his own statement, which included an apology, on his website contemporaneous with the release of USADA’s letter naming him as one of those admitting doping.

 

Armstrong remains banned from all federation sport, although he has competed in triathlons each of the past two weeks. Those triathlons are not sanctioned by any federation and therefore are not subject to the authority of any anti-doping agency.

 

USADA’s statement says that, “the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules,” but does not detail what those suspensions are, nor what other punitive actions might be taken against them, such as the stripping of past titles or monetary forfeiture.

 

All the riders do now or at one time belonged to the team with which Armstrong was associated throughout most of his career. Preparing for upcoming USADA hearings are that team’s directeur sportif, Johan Bruyneel, Dr. Pedro Celaya, and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer.

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Hincapie: "Lance told me that he stopped using hGH after his cancer. I understand, however, that he used hGH before he contracted cancer"

 

First evidence that the severity of Lance's cancer was probably self-inflicted.

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The others will most likely do the same. No rational person could still believe Lance didn't take PEDs.

 

If he denies it he could lose support from people who feel insulted that he would still lie about it. The rest of his support will come from people that are OK with the cheating as "it was just part of the sport back then."

 

The last interesting part of this saga will be what Lance decides to do. Call George and the others liers or release a similar statement. Either way I am expecting an impressive anti-climax.

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re: statute of limitations...

 

The eight-year statute of limitation found in Article 17 of the Code is not absolute. As the CAS panel in CAS 2005/C/841 CONI found, the “interruption, suspension, expiry or extension of such [eight-year] time-bar . . . . should be dealt with in the context of the principles of private law of the country where the interested sports authority is domiciled.” (CONI, ¶ 78) As the anti-doping organization conducting results management, USADA is the “interested party” in this case. Thus, the statute of limitations issue should be analyzed according to U.S. law. Under U.S. law, the running of a statute of limitation is suspended when a person has fraudulently concealed his conduct: “one who wrongfully conceals material facts and thereby prevents discovery of his wrong . . . is not permitted to assert the statute of limitations as a bar to an action against him, thus taking advantage of his own wrong, until the expiration of the full statutory period from the time when the facts were discovered or should, with reasonable diligence, have been discovered.” (Pacific Electric Co., 310 F.2d 271, at 277 (quoting 34 Am.Jur. 188)) As detailed in Section VII above, Mr. Armstrong fraudulently concealed his doping from USADA in many ways, including lying under oath in the SCA case; lying in the 2000 French judicial investigation; intimidating witnesses; and soliciting false affidavits. Mr. Armstrong cannot benefit from the running of a statute of limitation when a violation would have been asserted by USADA earlier but for his fraudulent concealment.

 

So the statute of limitations law isn't some sporting law which USADA can ignore as it chooses, it's actual US Law which says it doesn't apply if the person involved has been lying to cover his tracks.

Edited by Donncha

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Hincapie: "Lance told me that he stopped using hGH after his cancer. I understand, however, that he used hGH before he contracted cancer"

First evidence that the severity of Lance's cancer was probably self-inflicted.

 

I don't know anything about cancer but is there evidence that hgh increases the severity of cancer?

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I don't know anything about cancer but is there evidence that hgh increases the severity of cancer?

 

 

I'm not sure, but as far as I know, hGH makes everything grow faster; muscles, internal organs, bones, everything which is why abusers often end up ripped but with a distended gut; their internal organs have also grown, pushing their ripped abs outwards. Happy to be corrected by a medical person if I've got that wrong.

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I expected a lot more comments already this morning. Sunrise has been all over it. Must be a lot of reading going on.

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Like I said doesnt really change anything for me in terms of the entertainment value of cyclists from that era..... funny that Vino would have a crack, a two year doping ban had an appointment with the blood doping doctor during the Tour after Tyler.

 

I guess it just confirms what everyone knew anyway. The comments of some wood ducks on here astounds me thinking the world is black and white, guess they live sufficiently sheltered existences to think that all in life is either good or bad. Our Tassie mate intimates that if I couldnt stop crime I should never have joined the cops or I must prefer anarchy... jeesus. Ill let the supreme ignorance of that statement lay on the table for people go gaze at.

 

As Trev says social media will be busy, but people have made up their own minds in my view. So will they go after Lances assets? If he is smart he has probably moved a few here and there, to go back to the 'underbelly' simile (all fictitious of course), you have a bloke that trades in drugs of death, kills people bashes people and cuts em up, off to the slammer but Im sure when he gets out all the pubs he owns and the millions he has stashed away as have many real criminals have done will ensure he will be living comfortably. I dont like that, but thats the way it is.

 

As for the Lance era, I guess the comment that sums it up really is something Tyler said in his book...."you can call me a doper, a cheat and anything you want but I know I did what I did and took my chances knowing that everyone was at the same level and I took the opportunities that everyone else had".... he said this in response to the day he won the Tour stage with a broken collarbone.

 

So I guess it comes down to a moral judgement of what is criminal and heinous and what is people living in the world in which they live. Im philosophical about it and enjoyed it for what it was at the time, and still enjoy watching the DVDs and memories of that era. If people think its the worst thing they have ever seen then they have lived very sheltered lives lucky them.

 

Anyway off the deal with my shit and deal with my own square metre. Ill leave the bickering for the drama queens. Maybe tune in to Kyle and Jackie O and start a gossip thread on Kim Kardashian or something. Maybe you should get a life or learn what it is like to reach your athletic potential to keep it on topic. Id suggest the noisiest critics on this thread havent gone within a bulls roar of that and might be better served looking in a mirror instead of wasting time agonizing about Lance. Im comfortable with my choices and my judgements. Its a big bag world out there kiddos, be happy you have the time to play a nice fun rich white boy sport.

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Wow, when they said 30 times greater they weren't kidding. There are so many pieces worth quoting, the money trail is huge, amongst loads of stuff. Surely nobody can have any doubts what so ever of the extent now.

A must read for all.

 

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Naturally we don't think it's the worst thing we've ever seen in the world, not by far (TUV, I still remember those shorts you were wearing in that news story about you; so much worse a crime ;) ). And damn sure plenty of the cycling from those days is great to watch. I might not have watched at the time, but I like to youtube stuff to see. Lot's of it is LA climbing. And sure a lot were doing it.

 

But busted is busted. I'm not gonna cry for him. And being a discussion forum, one of the biggest drug related topics in the world of sport is gonna get discussed ad nauseum.

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Where are the Lance haters? I hope the USADA report explains how the drugs rode the bike to 7 wins lol. The question is, will the French accept the "testimony" of known drug cheats who have all served bans and suspensions. ASO couldn't care less right now, they're all off in South America organising and planning the next Dakar car rally which they run as well.

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Where are the Lance haters? I hope the USADA report explains how the drugs rode the bike to 7 wins lol. The question is, will the French accept the "testimony" of known drug cheats who have all served bans and suspensions. ASO couldn't care less right now, they're all off in South America organising and planning the next Dakar car rally which they run as well.

 

 

Wtf are you talking about? The French?

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Wow I guess this will be the end of the matter then. And all sport will now be clean. Not.

 

Id suggest there is a long way to do in this one and a lot of get squares along the way. Get the popcorn kids better than going out training huh?

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Anyway off the deal with my shit and deal with my own square metre.

 

 

Mate I love how "Dealing with you own square metre" involves calling everyone who doesnt agree with you names.

 

Im not sure what is hurting you more, the fact that your hero is f-ked, or that you have come to the realisiation that you and AP are cut from the same cloth. Yes I havent come within a bulls roar of my full potential, blah blah blah, and have no right to comment, or probably even breathe according to you, but guess what I am also pretty happy with my choices in life and sleep pretty f-king well at night!

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Where are the Lance haters? I hope the USADA report explains how the drugs rode the bike to 7 wins lol. The question is, will the French accept the "testimony" of known drug cheats who have all served bans and suspensions. ASO couldn't care less right now, they're all off in South America organising and planning the next Dakar car rally which they run as well.
are you serious? Read the document.

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Mate I love how "Dealing with you own square metre" involves calling everyone who doesnt agree with you names.

 

Im not sure what is hurting you more, the fact that your hero is f-ked, or that you have come to the realisiation that you and AP are cut from the same cloth. Yes I havent come within a bulls roar of my full potential, blah blah blah, and have no right to comment, or probably even breathe according to you, but guess what I am also pretty happy with my choices in life and sleep pretty f-king well at night!

 

 

So do I mate, but I guess we all have our heroes. I see you aversion to cheats didnt stop you engaging in a spot of hero worship with one of the biggest drug cheats of that era the other day. Hey I would get my photo taken with him too. Shit he looks skinny, guess thats got nothing to do with hard training or ability. Same as those rainbow bands on his collar and cuffs.

 

Just edited to say I actually havent been sleeping very well at all lately but its got nothing to do with Lance.... but would love a good nights sleep.

Edited by TUv5.0

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So do I mate, but I guess we all have our heroes. I see you aversion to cheats didnt stop you engaging in a spot of hero worship with one of the biggest drug cheats of that era the other day. Hey I would get my photo taken with him too. Shit he looks skinny, guess thats got nothing to do with hard training or ability. Same as those rainbow bands on his collar and cuffs.

 

Just edited to say I actually havent been sleeping very well at all lately but its got nothing to do with Lance.... but would love a good nights sleep.

 

 

Staying off here for a while and putting all that pent up energy into something positive would be a bloody good start. Seriously mate, you're gonna give yourself a heart attack. Go for a ride and be thankful you can (wish I could but I can't, even though I'm fat and white, probably overpaid and have two Pinas :lol: )

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Ill leave the bickering for the drama queens. Maybe tune in to Kyle and Jackie O and start a gossip thread on Kim Kardashian or something. Maybe you should get a life or learn what it is like to reach your athletic potential to keep it on topic. Id suggest the noisiest critics on this thread havent gone within a bulls roar of that and might be better served looking in a mirror instead of wasting time agonizing about Lance.

 

 

As someone who has probably got reasonably close to his athletic potential at one time, I'm happy to continue criticising Lance and his ilk. I'm certainly not agonising about him, I'm more concerned about all those other riders who never got a chance to reach their potential because assholes like LA were corrupting the sport. Hopefully now all this has come out steps can be taken to ensure that the doping culture never gets as bad again in cycling, particularly by ousting the enablers like Bruyneel and the dodgy doctors, those who usually skate under the radar when their rider tests positive.

 

Pretty much everyone agrees that cycling is a lot cleaner now than it was just just 5 years ago and the performance figures back that assertion up too. That effort to clean the sport up wasn't made because the UCI wanted to do it, it was made because they were forced to do it. Perhaps this will keep the pressure on them to do stuff to clean up the sport, and (unlikely, but fingers crossed) get useless f-kers like Verbruggen and McQuaid out of the sport.

 

And no Jabbs, I think we're all well aware that there are many worse things in life, but in sporting terms this is still pretty f-ked up and should be stopped.

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So what do we all then think of the hincapie, levi, and co statements? All of these guys at one stage in there careers adamantly denied doping but we havent yet hung them up?

 

Personally the statements read well (all the same) but seem to be pretty honest portrayals - i think this becomes lance's only line from here. Put out a statement in the same way, "yeah i crossed a line, i did it, i had to point fingers and call people liars this was my career and me coming out alone would do nothing - Floyd and Tyler are still d*cks though for getting caught :)"

 

Being the era it was, it certainly looks like we have to ask the question of our own backyard...

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Mate I love how "Dealing with you own square metre" involves calling everyone who doesnt agree with you names.

 

Im not sure what is hurting you more, the fact that your hero is f-ked, or that you have come to the realisiation that you and AP are cut from the same cloth. Yes I havent come within a bulls roar of my full potential, blah blah blah, and have no right to comment, or probably even breathe according to you, but guess what I am also pretty happy with my choices in life and sleep pretty f-king well at night!

 

 

according to some on here we live in a caste system and the self-appointed Brahmins have made it clear roxii.....you will never deserve the prima spot at the KWC 40s rack... go back and work the fields serf so the Lords can reap the harvest :D

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Michael Rogers is a doper...

 

Leipheimer: "In May of 2005 I attended a second training camp on the island of Tenerife with Dr. Ferraro. THe purpose of my attendance at this camp was to train at altitude and to had Dr. Ferrari monitor my training. Alos present at the camp were Yaroslav Popovych, Andrey Kashechkin, Alexandre Vino and Michael Rogers."

 

"In June of 2005 I attended a third training camp with Dr. Ferrari... St. Moritz, Switzerland. Riders present included Salvoldello, Popo, Rogers and Eddy Mazzoleni."

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i know its a sad reflection and very un-Australian but im sorta glad an Aussie has been named - it might lift the blanket that most of the country throw over that Aussies dont dope.

 

theres a lot been protected by that shield for years...

Edited by guzzle

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I still can not believe that when the active riders were approached two years ago and "apparently" volunteered their truthful versions were allowed to continue riding when they told the truth and admitted to doping. Effectively giving them a Clayton's penalty as they are now all retired.

 

Yes I agree the case appears very strong, but the methodology used to obtain these statements has to be questioned as to the willingness to provide them without being pressured to do so. I still think these would fall over if tested as TYGART himself has stated that the case is beyond any doubt which is a higher standard then criminal matters.

 

ARMSTRONG - over to you.

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people wear blinkers dont they!!! DONT tell me rogers and cadel didnt dope when they were part of team telekom (a squad who doped as much as USpostal did) most of them admitted it, cadel and rodgers slipped through the cracks now didnt they!

 

its widely know amongst the cyclists themselves they were mostly all on something of some sort. theres some hypocrytical statements being thrown around. and testifying to save your own arse when you did EXACTLY the same thing is f-king lame. they are the ones i particularly think are worse.

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