Jump to content
coachdaz

Improving OW swim ability

Recommended Posts

I recently got asked for an interview for a US tri mag on how I improve my athletes in the OW, and after spending a decent amount of time answering and submitting the information I was told it was not longer needed. Rather than file it away, or keep it all to myself, I figured someone out there might get something out of it. I am an Ozzie, and all the those athletes highlighted in the article are or have trained in Oz also. Best regards from the Swiss Mtns, Darren Smith

 

General Info:

How long have you been a tri coach? I coached my first international athlete in 1993, but got really serious since about 1999

What is your background (athlete, other sport, etc)? half decent triathlete (few top 10s world AG) after starting very late and not particularly from any background

How would you like to be referred to in article? Most people know me as coachdaz (twitter)…my name is Darren Smith (rarely I will use the Dr, but I do have PhD)

Do you have a team name or title? Again, most know us as ‘Dsquad’..we have a small team of 9 athletes, with six of our ODTri members out of 6 going to London for the Olympics, plus I coach a junior and two long course athletes who are also pretty decent.

Any other pertinent personal info?..just a private coach, with a fairly low profile, good thinker with commonsense. Happily married to Liz, a great sport dietitian and I’m a very satisfied customer of life.

 

Specific swim questions:

Can you give an example of an age group (non-pro) that has come to you as a slow swimmer and you worked with them to make significant gains in their swim times? Name, age, time spent coaching, original swim time/distance, current swim time/distance.

What are the main aspects that resulted in this improvement? Technique? More yardage? Open water training? Strength? A combination?

 

Its’s been a long long time since I worked with any age grouper, but I do help out some juniors at times.

Case study one is a junior male, Declan Wilson, whom we’ve improved by just over a 1.5 min over 1km in the past few months. He only learnt to swim in the past two years as a 17-18 yr old and was swimming only about 13.45-14 min for a 1km TT in late January earlier this year. By June we have him down around 12.27 min for the 1km TT (as you know 1.5 min off a 14 min/km is a bit harder than 1.5 off someone really slow)…

The change was a combination of everything:

Technically we changed most things..At the start, he wiggled his torso (no lateral stability to speak of), crossed over centreline on entry, kicked from the knee on one leg and didn’t kick at all with the other, pulled the water with dropped elbows, breathed late and out of alignment, and had terrible body position in the water and a really low stroke rate of 32/min. We have sorted out all of those things so now everything looks pretty neat and alignment is now good.

Improvements (up to 60%) were also made in range of motion of the shoulder, especially internal rotation and abduction; and we specifically strengthened the scapular and rotator cuff muscles.

Training included more mileage, initially as many shorter sessions while we adjusted the stroke, and then longer sessions to build fitness..always going back to shorter, more frequent sessions if the stroke broke down. Loading up on strength was also important and faster sprint efforts, but we always kept the mechanics good throughout.

We haven’t had the chance to do too many open water sessions yet, but we did drafting practice in the pool with better athletes, having him need to deal with people in close proximity, and he has become more of a student of the sport by watching how others deal with the swim in races.

 

Same two questions as above, regarding a pro athlete that you have coached. (any pro, doesn't have to be Barbara if you don't want to talk about her)..

I am fortunate enough to have contributed positively to a number of well known pro athletes. They all had their own quirky bits that needed negotiating.

Case studies will include Barbara Riveros from Chile who went from 3rd pack swimmer to back of first packer over two years which allowed her to capitalise on her biking and running ability and become a sprint world champ in 2011; and Lisa Norden, who also went from an average swimmer to now firmly entrenched in the first pack and an absolute legend of the sport in short distance drafting and non draft formats.

The girls are of very different body size, with their respective body lengths being in the order of 5,10’’ and 5 foot respectively for lisa and barb…but there were similarities with their initial swimming ability and skills. Both crossed over the centreline on entry, attempted to find a catch mainly using their hand, knew little about how to really apply force to water and had no coordination of the arms with the remaining parts of their body. They were fit and well conditioned coming off programs that did good swim volume and hard training sets, but they did not swim up to the required standard to become internationally competitive. Their strokes were also far from ideal for an open water environment and I will talk about this first.

Lisa, kicked from the knee well out of time with the hips, entered early and across the centreline but then pulled the water with much force at the catch (using just the hand) which was also very wide and deep. She breathed very late with an exaggerated head movement and the stroke was very short in length. Improvement in all these aspects helped tremendously, especially when we got her to think about using her whole ‘paddle’ (fingers to elbow) and to apply force in a coordinated manner involving the opposite hip, and kick in the correct timing. Because she is a very strong woman,’ pulling’ the water with so much force and using a small paddle (her hand only) was getting her nowhere especially in the open water. She ‘held’ very little water to move her forward.

 

Barb, had been well coached to find a catch (a vertical forearm), but unfortunately the arm stopped there momentarily before applying force in concert with a violent kick on the same side (the kick being from the knee and not the hip) and the arm force applied so fast that none of the paddle (being, hand to elbow) held any water at all! The stationary vertical forearm, was a big brake to forward motion; the energy of the pull too much for her strength to hold any water, and kicking from the knee created lots of drag and turbulence and she had a hip injury from it! It was worse when she breathed, because the head would lift from the water and the breathing was very late, affecting body position and instantaneous velocity (ie. short people, not propelling themselves sink and really don’t glide well). To sort it out, we reduced her intent to find a catch and removed the pause, taught her to kick from the hip and to coordinate it with the hips and press. Finally to relearn how to apply force to the water, with much less outright ‘pull’ of the water, rather a setting the ‘paddle’ and coordinating the body to move past this paddle.

 

For both athletes we worked hard on range, scapular control, staying healthy and swimming consistently with shorter double swims per day every second day, until they were technically good enough to handle longer and tougher fitness sets. Kinesthetic and visual feedback worked well. We coupled this with specific open water sessions, with me, the coach on a canoe next to them, giving feedback on their ability to swim straight, follow feet etc, concentrate when the going got tougher etc…in all sorts of conditions. We deemphasised what they did at the front end of the stroke, removed any gliding or dead spots and strengthened them to have an ability to use water at any point where they found it within the stroke. As most will know, swimming on feet, and in a stream of bubbles affects your ability to ‘hold’ water at the front part of the stroke, because of such low density of the water…this is in general contrast to swimming in a pool where some athletes (but not that many) will be able to feel good pressure from the water especially at the start, but potentially right through the stroke also.

They went faster initially, by swimming less intensely, but with more understanding of the fluid medium and better open water ability. Then we layered fitness, and race specific skills resulting in further improvement, but there was never a point when technical ability was left to the waste heap.

Strength endurance and the ability to swim quickly with band only and paddles/band pull bouy were also critical abilities we wanted to develop.

 

In general, what do you feel most triathletes are lacking in their training that is holding them back from making huge gains in the water?

 

Most triathletes, age group and elite have the same issues. Firstly forget fitness, it can be overrated until there is a certain amount of skill developed. Technically, triathletes create too much drag and not enough force…we have all seen the ex swimmer who is unfit but gets in the pool and swims rings around very fit ‘unskilled or non swimmers’! I will illustrate the issues and then apply some logic to help sort it out:

 

The increased drag of non swimmers is generally from having both poor kick mechanics and not knowing how to adjust body position using the upper part of their body.

It is not that difficult to kick from the hip, nor to improve plantarflexion, but most triathletes kick from the knee and have ankles locked almost at 90 degrees! The kick is not really that relevant for direct forward progress per se in most parts of the race, but I believe it critical to help the body move past the ‘paddle’ in a coordinated manner (more on this later). Once the kick is sorted the body position normally improves, but additional work (assuming the swimmer has enough thoracic/shoulder range) around the head and torso can improve the body position and reduce the drag further. Simplistically, push the torso and head (together) into the water a bit more and hey presto, better body position irrespective of everything else. Of course if you mostly race in a wetsuit, then some of these things are solved, so less emphasis can certainly be placed on the body position requirements.

 

Out of date style coaching instruction probably is the other big issue. The open water medium is a bit special, what I find is athletes across the board enter the water too early, often crossing the centreline, glide for way too long, press wide thereafter in a ‘key hole shape’ and pull with their little shoulder muscles (akin to a lat pulldown in the gym or rowing stroke) using only their hand as a paddle. Unfortunately the swimming world was side tracked for the best part of 30 yrs after a biomechanist and swim coach named Doc Counsilmen observed that good freestyle swimmers appeared to scull their hand in a key hole shape. Every coach who read this work then went and taught swimmers to do a sculling action like this, but did not understand that most of the key hole shape is a result of normal body roll, rather than any requirement to scull laterally. The result is that everything is overdone!

What is wrong will all this…in turbulent environments such as the open water, short non streamlined people really don’t glide well and both velocity and body position deteriorate very rapidly, the arm is a third order lever, so any catch less than ideal causes much duress to the muscles trying to move the arm.

 

Now once something decent is in place, then conditioning becomes important, but this bit is certainly not rocket science. There will be a minimum level of endurance training required to become a proficient swimmer, but many will overdo the intensity of training that is required, and probably not complete enough swimming with good technique at moderate to medium paces. Strength endurance is important because the back end of the stroke is critical when following feet I believe.

 

Then, navigating in the open water and within a high energy race environment is another stage that needs some work for many, but not all. Many people can swim straight, but most cannot, and same with being able to concentrate or sight properly to ensure they are indeed heading in the right direction.

 

What significance (if any) do you think training in open water has for improving as a triathlete?

We as triathlon coaches have our athletes training 95% or more in the pool, which to some extent rewards gliding, and is more pristine than in the open water. I work very hard not to let me athletes forget that we are not trying to optimise their pool swimming ability, but we are specifically trying to get the best out of themselves when it counts…which is during an open water race.

The time we spend in the open water is precious, in the off season in Australia we are out there every single week for sessions between 1 hr and 2 hrs with up to two coaches on canoes doing specific workouts and providing feedback directly related to the demands found in racing. There are no lane ropes or black lines in a race, athletes need to get used to being hit and having to deal with it, negotiating turns and not loosing forward momentum etc and we practice it all. Once we improved her in the pool Barb Riveros used to be swimming fine at the back of a group in such OW sessions, and all of a sudden was heading left or right at almost 45 degrees for apparently no reason…there was simply a lack of concentration and if she tried too hard she either slipped her hold on the water or just went off line. Her sighting was also in pretty poor shape and this affected her body position, drag and hence speed in the open water. Everything has a knock on effect. In swimming within a race, once the gap opens up for any of the above reasons then it was likely the end of a good result in the race, so it mattered a lot to us.

 

In your opinion, how important is swim specific strength training?

 

Swimming, like biking is really a strength endurance sport, and therefore lots of specific strength is very important. However general strengthening or making the wrong muscles more powerful is not the answer. First, what are the weak muscles, and what are their actions in the swim stroke. I just don’t believe the ‘pulling’ muscles of the arm are the prime movers for technically good swimming…so for me, strengthening these are totally unproductive. Forget biceps curls, chest press, lat pull downs and all that sort of thing. Strengthening the muscles of the shoulder and the scapular so you can ‘hold’ the ‘paddle’ in place as the body moves past it, and strengthening the core so you can hold a streamlined torso really is useful however. You can get these adaptations by swimming and adding resistance, by gym or stretch chord work, or a combination. The bottomline however is that you are trying to apply force to a very slippery medium with not a particularly well designed ‘paddle’ (have a look at your forearm to hand) so any power gains must be matched by skills to use this extra ability.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Echoing the comments above, great stuff. I wish I could swim 'only' 14mins/km with all the problems of the junior athlete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see Tri Gold is empty? I propose that this thread be moved there.

 

Given Darren is the pre-eminent ITU coach in Australia, and seriously world class, this info should be easily available for newbies, and the frequent posts addressing this topic. Daz nails it with real world examples as well as practical advice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cant believe the magazine bounced it!

 

They probably had to make room for a Balance Band advertorial or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey @Coach, just to continue the discussion, I am interested in how @coachdaz's views compare to yours when it comes to swim intensity.

 

Based on some of the stuff he's outlined above, Daz seems to think most triathletes overdo the intensity and don't spend enough time practicing good technique at a moderate pace.

 

You seem to be a big fan of swimming as often as possible, with lots of threshold sets. I also remember you giving preference to pool squads rather than open water swim sessions, is that still the case and if so, why do you think that is more beneficial?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey @Coach, just to continue the discussion, I am interested in how @coachdaz's views compare to yours when it comes to swim intensity.

 

Based on some of the stuff he's outlined above, Daz seems to think most triathletes overdo the intensity and don't spend enough time practicing good technique at a moderate pace.

 

You seem to be a big fan of swimming as often as possible, with lots of threshold sets. I also remember you giving preference to pool squads rather than open water swim sessions, is that still the case and if so, why do you think that is more beneficial?

 

 

Lots of similarities. Daz is into frequency and will do double swim days. I am into that too. Yes, technique is key for his swim coaching. Remember his athletes are full time elite so they have the time to focus keenly on this and do the required mileage. Pragmatism rules for the age grouper's training routine. That means IMO less ks, higher intensity, and a balance between fitness and technique. Another thing is that 95% of races agers do are with wetsuits on. ITU athletes, in the main, race sans wettie. Different swimming.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I cant believe the magazine bounced it!

 

They probably had to make room for a Balance Band advertorial or something.

 

With all due respect it is not written at the magazine or readability level and probably would have required a lot of editing which would have been difficult to do without changing the message.

I found it hard to read and stopped, but will copy and save it to try and read later.....when I know what I don't know ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

oh pa-lease....i think im going to cry for the poor editor! too hard !

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Daz said it was no longer needed, not rejected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all due respect it is not written at the magazine or readability level

I found it hard to read and stopped, but will copy and save it to try and read later.....when I know what I don't know ;)

 

 

:huh: Are you a Dr. Seuss fan?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With all due respect it is not written at the magazine or readability level and probably would have required a lot of editing which would have been difficult to do without changing the message.

I found it hard to read and stopped, but will copy and save it to try and read later.....when I know what I don't know ;)

 

Only took 12 posts for the predictable keyboard cowboy to shoot something great down.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Strength endurance is important because the back end of the stroke is critical when following feet I believe.

 

 

Love to know the premise behind this statement Daz.

 

IMO the front end is key - the entry, catch and lift (catch doesn't do it for me as a stand alone term - elbow should engage immediately on catch ie. lift.) + rating enables the body to pass over the arm (or paddle as daz calls it).

 

Now when following feet at a high velocity many factors come into play - especially around buoys when a lift in rating is needed. very little glide comes into it IMO

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only took 12 posts for the predictable keyboard cowboy to shoot something great down.

 

And two more posts for the predictable nark to read her own spin on what a poster says..

 

Where did I say it was not a great piece of advice????- Even if I didn't read everything, I will go by the fact that the author is well renowned and that others on here have positive comments.

 

I was talking about the readability. It is for a magazine, not for a forum where the demographic already knows a lot of the technical stuff. It makes no sense for me to read something I cannot yet relate to. You may as well put Einstein's theories in the mag.

 

oh pa-lease....i think im going to cry for the poor editor! too hard !

 

That's the reality my friend. Most of the mags these days shoot people on that level a set of questions and they expect to put it straight in without editing. They are not blessed with a big team of editors and most operate on the smell of an oily rag.

 

I have had three articles and race reports- which I don't think read well BTW- in a local mag, and it went in unedited as per their brief.

 

I am also sitting on another set of questions for a different mag, and haven't gone past the third one since March and hoping they just forget they sent it, because I really cannot get the technical stuff down to inexperienced reader level without just throwing all the questions away.

 

So it is both the questions (the mag) and the author...but it says nothing about the quality of advice nor the person. I think Daz would understand what I am saying.

Edited by hooleydooley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Love to know the premise behind this statement Daz.

 

"As most will know, swimming on feet, and in a stream of bubbles affects your ability to ‘hold’ water at the front part of the stroke, because of such low density of the water"

 

Coach@ I interpreted it that maximising the effectiveness of the back end compensates for the difficulty in holding water at the front end when you're on someone's feet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

"As most will know, swimming on feet, and in a stream of bubbles affects your ability to ‘hold’ water at the front part of the stroke, because of such low density of the water"

 

Coach@ I interpreted it that maximising the effectiveness of the back end compensates for the difficulty in holding water at the front end when you're on someone's feet

 

 

Ok. Don't think i'm seeing this right.

 

In my mind the front end of the stroke executed in a stream of bubbles would mean that rating and catch is even more critical to speed. You can't "hold" yourself up to glide very well in low density water. Not sure if that makes sense to anyone else...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mick never swims in low density water cos there's never anyone in front of him.

 

 

Not true tortoise.

 

I raced an open aquathon in february against Macca, the Fox boys, Ben Allen, Mick Murphy, the Allums et al. Pretty much the cream of openwater guys. Mass start openwater over a km.

 

I started next to the pier and shadowed Ben Allen for the first 200 then slipped behind Macca's feet. My ring was hanging out just to keep in touch with the bubbles. I found that any drop in cadence meant the bubble thinned (ie. getting dropped). So I increased the rate and was exiting at the hip. Managed to hang on but it was as fast as i've had to swim in a race for the past few years. Real hard core open water race. Zero gliding at any point.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coach@ where are you looking when you're hanging onto feet like that?

 

I ask because my body position is best when I'm looking straight down but I lose feet easily.

 

If I look towards the feet in front my body pos is atrocious and I can't glide as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coach@ where are you looking when you're hanging onto feet like that?

 

I ask because my body position is best when I'm looking straight down but I lose feet easily.

 

If I look towards the feet in front my body pos is atrocious and I can't glide as well.

 

 

Looking forward at an angle. Waterline mid-forehead. I focus in on being able to see the feet. If all I can see is bubbles I change the rate up another gear.

 

Have you tried swimming off someone's hip? Nearly as effective and much easier to monitor and control body position and your own intrapersonal sensations (heartrate, breathing, lactate etc.).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Looking forward at an angle. Waterline mid-forehead. I focus in on being able to see the feet. If all I can see is bubbles I change the rate up another gear.

 

Have you tried swimming off someone's hip? Nearly as effective and much easier to monitor and control body position and your own intrapersonal sensations (heartrate, breathing, lactate etc.).

 

For me there's more chance of getting knocked around and hit while on a hip but I'll give more of a chance this Summer.

 

Just seems that everthing I feel is right to practice in the pool gets thrown out in open water situations. Head position is the biggie for me. It's clear that great open water surf swimmers have a vastly different set of skills and body position compared to what gets me by in the pool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me there's more chance of getting knocked around and hit while on a hip but I'll give more of a chance this Summer.

 

Just seems that everthing I feel is right to practice in the pool gets thrown out in open water situations. Head position is the biggie for me. It's clear that great open water surf swimmers have a vastly different set of skills and body position compared to what gets me by in the pool.

 

 

True about the hip. Worth a crack in a smaller race as an experiement.

 

Head position is important as is adaptability to a changing environment. I wouldn't say experienced openwater swimmers have a vastly different set of skills - just more comfortable in that race setting.

 

The more races you do with an experimental head on - the more experience and intrinsic understanding will take place.

 

Another X factor is aggression and race intuition/proactivity.

 

I coached a girl that could match any ITU girl over a km in a pool; but got her arse kicked in each international event simply through not fighting for her spot and simply hanging tough on feet - regardless of style, technique or any other kinesthetic factor.

 

It takes time. You are very sharp TC. You'll no doubt work it out soon enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice of you to share your undoubted professional expertise with us Daz. Any further gems you feel you can throw our way at any time would be much appreciated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems he knows a thing or two about swimming, excellent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Looking forward at an angle. Waterline mid-forehead. I focus in on being able to see the feet. If all I can see is bubbles I change the rate up another gear.

 

 

 

 

Coach, you obviously need to have your head in ths position to see the feet and the bubbles but if you wanted to smack out a good TT in the pool (non wetsuit) would you have your head down more looking at the bottom of the pool?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"At the start, he wiggled his torso (no lateral stability to speak of), crossed over centreline on entry, kicked from the knee on one leg and didn’t kick at all with the other, pulled the water with dropped elbows, breathed late and out of alignment, and had terrible body position in the water and a really low stroke rate of 32/min"

 

And he was still swimming 13.45-14 for 1k!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I seem to swim a heap better off the front/in clear water. That way my stroke isnt impeded by feet in ftont of me and i can set the pace. It usually means i get knocked around less.

I was really disappointed in myself to swim so poorly in my bigger races towards the end of last summer (m'ba & sydney), especially as i had been swimming so well in shorter races all summer and getting better. I just lost it.

 

This stiff from darren is great, it was this time last year i was rebuilding my swimming, so now i can further refine it to be even stronger in pack and OW scenarios.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Coach@, or any others with relevant knowledge,

I've always subscribed to the theory that having some-one sit my toes helps my speed as well, as I'm not pulling the water up behind me. I was always a better open water swimmer than pool swimmer, so sometimes found myself at the pointy end in the swim. If you know the guy isn't going to nail you in the ride/run, is it worth not trying to drop him off to open the gap?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad it was of some use. The customer..spot on with your explanation to Mick; ex-hasbeen: in the pool we see the front person of a pack is actually slowed down marginally...wave drag is the issue. Up to a second per 100 is what my athletes tell me (did I say complain).. Mick (coach@triathlon)...I spoke with the Oz slalom canoe coach and former 10 time world champ yrs ago and they have the same problems with the paddle in the eddies around rocks...tricky business getting 'genuine purchase' in turbulent water.

I'm pretty busy up to the big dance in London, but if Mick wants to compile a few questions and email them to me then I will do my best. I don't do much writing of my thoughts because I rarely get asked, but here are a few things that will give a bit of an insight: http://www.coachesinfo.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=82:swimming-open-water&catid=49:swimming-coaching&Itemid=86 and http://triathlon.competitor.com/2012/06/features/the-curious-case-of-darren-smith_55275. There was something else on Slowtwitch a while back also: http://www.slowtwitch.com/Interview/Picking_the_brain_of_Darren_Smith_1893.html I really am not a 'big head' and the interviewers tend to overstate things, but there is some swim stuff in there. Greetings now from Austria (Kitzbuhel WTS race).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Coachdaz, great to read how you get the best out of some top pro's. Good luck for your crew in the OG's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Liked the stuff about Diaz not concentrating and losing feet. I do this ll the time...think this is too much hard work here, I was happier a minute ago on my Pat. More happy maybe but not faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was thinking about this topic during my lunchtime swim. I think I do push my torso down & kick from the hips which is good apparently. I also think I grip the water with more than just the hand? But my best 1km time is 16:45!

 

Two questions cropped up:

 

1. How come I can do 100m repeats on a 2min cycle with a pull buoy & no kicking just as fast as when I swim normally ?

2. The bloke in the lane next to me, his whole head goes underwater between strokes - that ain't right is it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was thinking about this topic during my lunchtime swim. I think I do push my torso down & kick from the hips which is good apparently. I also think I grip the water with more than just the hand? But my best 1km time is 16:45!

 

Two questions cropped up:

 

1. How come I can do 100m repeats on a 2min cycle with a pull buoy & no kicking just as fast as when I swim normally ?

2. The bloke in the lane next to me, his whole head goes underwater between strokes - that ain't right is it?

 

The answer to the first is probably that your normal kick is not powerful, & your bottom half sits low in the water. The pull bouy lifts it giving you a better position in the water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was thinking about this topic during my lunchtime swim. I think I do push my torso down & kick from the hips which is good apparently. I also think I grip the water with more than just the hand? But my best 1km time is 16:45!

 

Two questions cropped up:

 

1. How come I can do 100m repeats on a 2min cycle with a pull buoy & no kicking just as fast as when I swim normally ?

2. The bloke in the lane next to me, his whole head goes underwater between strokes - that ain't right is it?

 

G'day Thommo,

 

1. Probably because your kick is not offering you that much propulsion (which is normal anyway), but assists with your streamlining (which is what it should do), just the same as a pull buoy. How well can you kick with just a kickboard?....Can you knock off lap after lap? What is you vertical kick like (that will help you in terms of kicking from the hips)?

2. It's probably more efficient then having a scissor kick or a lower body that drags through the water...If the guy is pushing just his head under the water he is probably lifting lower limbs quite well.

 

The thing to remember is, if you want to turn on the outboard motor it comes at a huge energy cost....the legs are not efficient at all in the water, therefore, your kick should focus on keeping you streamlined, as opposed to propelling you through the water.

 

fluro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hit me with some Qs for Daz and I'll compile and send off to him.

 

PM or on here is cool

 

 

A question for daz,

 

Do you active your hip before you start your catch?

 

Is there much propulsion going on at the back end of the stroke....Gary Hall Junior seems to think just let the hand exit naturally as opposed to pushing right back through to the hip?

 

How do you stop someone from breathing late?

 

fluro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is awesome!! I'm pretty much the same age as Declan and am at the level he was at before Darren took him on (13:48 1k, down from 14:25 before Mooloolaba)

 

Coach@ and others, just a few questions

 

An issue I've had is breathing late and a low stroke rate, what practices do you employ to correct this?

 

What do you mean by 'kicking from the hip'? Do you mean kicking with a straight leg?

 

What are your thoughts on pull buoys and paddles? one thing I've noticed changing from swimming with a triathlon group (with ITU WTS guys) to a swim squad (with low 16min 1500m guys) is that pull bouys are used about 3 times a week and paddles maybe once, and they are never used in main sets whereas we used PB's and Paddles every session, doing many of our main sets with aids.

 

Just for a point of reference (been doing my own swim block since late April), what sort of mileage and how many sessions was Declan doing a week? (this might be classified info)

 

Again many thanks Darren!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day Thommo,

 

1. Probably because your kick is not offering you that much propulsion (which is normal anyway), but assists with your streamlining (which is what it should do), just the same as a pull buoy. How well can you kick with just a kickboard?....Can you knock off lap after lap? What is you vertical kick like (that will help you in terms of kicking from the hips)?

2. It's probably more efficient then having a scissor kick or a lower body that drags through the water...If the guy is pushing just his head under the water he is probably lifting lower limbs quite well.

 

The thing to remember is, if you want to turn on the outboard motor it comes at a huge energy cost....the legs are not efficient at all in the water, therefore, your kick should focus on keeping you streamlined, as opposed to propelling you through the water.

 

fluro

 

 

I'm a complete joke with a kickboard - absolutely pathetic.

 

I don't have a scissor kick, and my chicken legs seem to float well. I have been told my body 'waggles' though.

 

I'm still doing your bang for buck set every week ot two, can now do all the 100s in 1:25-30 (was 1:45 when i started).

 

The swim coach who is often there tells me I need to glide more, but I agree with Daz, for open water swimming, gliding is not the way to go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1. I'm a complete joke with a kickboard - absolutely pathetic.

 

2. I don't have a scissor kick, and my chicken legs seem to float well. I have been told my body 'waggles' though.

 

I'm still doing your bang for buck set every week ot two, can now do all the 100s in 1:25-30 (was 1:45 when i started).

 

3. The swim coach who is often there tells me I need to glide more, but I agree with Daz, for open water swimming, gliding is not the way to go.

 

 

1. There is your weakness...if you are a complete joke with a kickboard, then it will more than likely be the reason for slowing you down while doing free. if you start doing more kickboard work, you'll correctly this deficiency over time and therefore improve your freestyle efficiency.. 10min with each swim session will suffice.

 

2. WAGGLES? sounds like a fishtale, which means one of your hands is crossing the midline somewhere in the stroke

 

3. Don't glide....it's a crock, there is no free speed in the glide

 

fluro

Edited by fluro2au

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2. WAGGLES? sounds like a fishtale, which means one of your hands is crossing the midline somewhere in the stroke

 

fluro

 

 

Yup, the fishtail. And the same coach kept telling me my left hand crosses my mideline. He told me to aim its entry at the side of the pool, but for some reason I find it hard to keep it out there.

 

Did I mention I tend to veer right ?

 

My kickboard is as bad as you TGL.

Edited by Thommo227

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for posting this CoachDaz :) I had no idea who you were until a few weeks ago, then read the Triathlete Europe interview and was mightily impressed. I glad you found the time to post here. As Mick says, this is definitely a candidate for TriGold

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the bang for buck swim set?

 

 

it is a set Fluro put up in a thread about swim-sets for the time-poor. It is:

 

200m w-up

6x100m as fast as you can on 3 min cycle

100m easy

400m TT

200m c-down

 

First time I did it was out at the Gundi pool on a work trip, thought it would be a cinch. I was wrong!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Was thinking about this topic during my lunchtime swim. I think I do push my torso down & kick from the hips which is good apparently. I also think I grip the water with more than just the hand? But my best 1km time is 16:45!

 

Two questions cropped up:

 

1. How come I can do 100m repeats on a 2min cycle with a pull buoy & no kicking just as fast as when I swim normally ?

2. The bloke in the lane next to me, his whole head goes underwater between strokes - that ain't right is it?

 

 

My 2 cents. Probably about the same speed because the extra speed you get swimming without a pool bouy from leg propulsion is costing you o2 and tiring you from that perspective. Swimming with a pool bouy is negating the propulsion but you have more o2 to keep those arms turning over harder and quicker hence why you swim about the same speed. - Just a theory......

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×