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coachdaz

Improving OW swim ability

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Crap!! Am very sorry to hear this - wouldn't wish it on anyone!!!!!!

 

 

I have no idea if my kickboard is bad or not, speed wise I come in on 1min for 50 at a solid kick, only do about 200-400m kickboard each session broken up.

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I have no idea if my kickboard is bad or not, speed wise I come in on 1min for 50 at a solid kick, only do about 200-400m kickboard each session broken up.

 

So what you're saying is that you do your kickboard 100s in the same time as I do my freestyle 100s?

 

Will need some more chocolate to console myself.....

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So what you're saying is that you do your kickboard 100s in the same time as I do my freestyle 100s?

 

Will need some more chocolate to console myself.....

 

 

Me too. Got some chocolate for me ?

On the bright side, despite being terminally slow in a pool, I held my own in Cairns, finishing in about the same place I started in, as far as I could tell.

Shaving 30 secs from a 1km pool time doesn't translate to much in the middle of 1100 thrashing bodies in the ocean, I don't think.

Probably makes more difference at the elite level. I think there were 25 odd starters for the pros, which means a lot more clear water.

Being able to swim straight and sight without disturbing your rhythm probably counts for more at the AG level.

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As Coach Royds can confirm, when using a kickboard I can easily end up being stationary or even travelling backwards......

 

 

i just go straight to the bottom.

I'm going to try the bang for a buck workout. I need a change.

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When you find the magic pill please let me know!!!!! :)

 

 

Only the gnostics have the secret....it is available through a series of ancient and challenging tests...only the strong are gifted with it ;)

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Only the gnostics have the secret....it is available through a series of ancient and challenging tests...only the strong are gifted with it ;)

 

You speak the truth Obi Wan :)

 

Nealo mentioned to me yesterday that he was in the process of being initiated into the way of these dark arts. He even showed me the side of his head where some gills had begun to grow!

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Heh again from Swtizerland. Four weeks and bit to go...

I am putting a proposal together for a book I am writing so this is terrific and i am turning my original post into an example chapter, so all these questions are brilliant. lets have a crack at a few bits and pieces:

Thommo- our man Fluoro was right onto it...I do a test where for a set distance and same time; we take stroke numbers of athletes (per25 or 50) in 1. pull + light kick, 2. pull +band, 3. band only, then the same with paddles added. We can work out aspect of strengths (ie as we tie up the lower half of body then we would expect some modest increase in strk numbers, but not huge, indicating good strength and good ability to adjust body postiion), and the influence of the paddles gives me a really good insight into whether athletes use their hand (ie add paddles and strks go down a lot) or entire forearm to fingers (goes down little). We then go into a tiring strength set (band only sprints) and repeat the test...the technically good and strong athletes who do extremely well in the OW hardly change, while the others struggle, use more strokes and struggle in OW more.

Can you adjust your body position to account for situations...I have Bart world du champ from 2010 who floats like a brick and his head has to be deep, others don't need it, so do what you need to do to reduce drag, because that is the killer. In OW he breathes and gets back to his best body position...needs practice, and there is no set rule.

Fluoro: hip to catch timing...if pressure was a guage I would go 1 out of 5 for most of it, then 2-3 at catch, then 4/5 after catch thru middle of stroke. Worst thing I see is people giving it way too much gas at the catch=slip like champs! so be very very careful with the pressure applied to the water...consider it like running on mud for those runners out there...add the gas gently and you will move forward, too much and you end up on you face or butt.

Late breathing is just lazy breathing...stop waiting until the head is out of the water until you breath out! In that case both breathing out and in must be done while your head it out and you just cannot cover both in a short enough time. Instead, breath out starting when hand passes your face in the stroke on the same side as you will endeavour to breath...that way when your head is out you only need to breath in. I often say, do I walk with a pause or walk in a nice consistent rhythm? Breathing should not change the stroke rhythm.

Cannastar-consider kicking like a soccer ball kick, or getting gum off your shoe...just try it. Tight hip flexors and tight lower back def do not help. often start athletes with hands on their thighs and ask them to make them move back and forwards, and then practice push off from wall deep into the pool where you can feel good pressure as opposed to trying it on the surface.

Declan-we loaded up 3 swims over two days, then day off, then load again...not one per day because after 4 days it is a waste of time. Still working to get him to use his core to provide propulsion and to hold body in a streamlined position...part of the body he was very unfamiliar with! Ironic since he is a strong looking lad.

Cannot remind you all enough that holding the paddle and being gentle on the water and using the body in a coordinated action is the way to get the best out of swimming....after of course correcting, body position, kicking, ... not easy I know. best Daz

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It's like bloody dancing. Gotta do all this crap at the same time. Relatively easy to practice all the bits in isolation, but for the "can't walk and chew gum" types, like me, putting it together is like blood cold fusion.

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When you find the magic pill please let me know!!!!! :)

 

 

 

I've heard that it lives in a chocolate bar, so I'm busy looking.

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What a great, informative thread.

 

Such a departure from some of the drivel posted and the personality/ego dumping ground this site has been lately.

 

Well done and thanks coachDaz!

Edited by joelb3108

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As Coach Royds can confirm, when using a kickboard I can easily end up being stationary or even travelling backwards......

 

 

It's a very special skill only you possess TGL.....

 

And nice to see Coach Daz on here giving some love. I've been lucky enough to sit in on one of his coaching seminars and was very impressed with his humble, no nonsense approach to getting things sorted for the people at the pointy end of the race and translate it back to age group hackers like us. Good luck in London with your team!

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Read it, thought about it tried and applied it, first bits of written words about swimming technique I have been able to understand ever. And it helped. Thanks for the tips and please keep them coming

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good thread.......my observations...........

 

the thing i got out of this was reinforcement of the idea that you change your stroke to suit the situation/body type + minimise drag "by whatever means you can-dont have to be textbook"

 

open water swimming often isnt pretty

 

just like running some of the best in the field have the HIGHEST variability in their movement pattern

 

when movement becomes robotic or people attempt to execute repetitive form they lose their ability to stay loose and adapt

 

often in OW stroke has to shorten/speed up/ lenghten/slow down many times over a small period

 

many of the "good" swimmers I see who are poor at OW just cant deal with the adaptation required- they are looking to maintain a stable head down, glide, long stroke, roll, flutter kick through the whole swim- which when in a race situation doesnt present itself. They dont do nearly enough swimming with the skills required for OW- they just spend all their time on practising good pool technique

 

in OW you will often need to kick hard for a short period (eg swimming with your head up or get rid of people swimming over your legs) then go to swimming with no kick with your head/chest down deep longer strokes, then short choppy strokes eg around cans- this can all happen within 30 secs

 

poor OW swimmers tend to get locked into static rigid movements- just like poor runners. Some of the best OW swimmers I have seen have ugly strokes/stroke length is pretty short but the shoulder rotation is awesome and the arms keep moving relentlessly through the water like a paddle steamer with good looseness.

 

also re OW-lots of wetsuit shops out there putting AG triathletes into one size too small/minimum size tri wetsuits (textbook perfect fit before they hydrate or start pumping blood around). On a fat arse AG most will be bound up too much in the legs/calves. They dont make most wetsuits nearly wide enough through the legs IMHO for a lot of people (because they figure its neoprene it will stretch from the skinniest guy to the fattest.

 

the result of this is people who cant relax their legs/cant kick properly when needed/ exit the water with cramps (never happens except when i race is what i always hear from people). Better to buy one size up for most and have the ability to move more freely. Yeah you let in a bit more water but you aint an elite. Its hard to maintain a relaxed kick for balance if you have to work hard just to shift the rubber- so it shuts down their kick entirely- then their arms give out- because they got to go into panick rhythm without their normal kick- then their piss weak shoulders give out (because they are "real" swimmers and stay away from paddle and band sets or do 1000m with them twice a week tops)

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Interesting comment about the wetsuit sizing.

When I turned up a a shop to buy a wettie, the guy looked at me and reached for a small size.

I said, c'mon, at least a medium. I wedged myself into a medium. He says "perfect fit". I piped, in castrato, "Do ya really think so ?" I got that out fairly quickly, cos I could not actually breathe.

GImme a large. Said large is still a very snug fit, and since I've blimped out a few kg, even more so. INteresting ly, the legs are quite loose, so someone has worked that out. It's an Aleeda long john.

 

If I did not have a few decades of experience wearing wetsuits, I would have taken away the wrong size.

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Thanks Darren, for your insight. Great Thread!

 

I read somewhere once that triathletes don't kick as they are saving their legs...looks like it's time i got a kickboard and maybe start adding some OW swim / run bricks also!!

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Thanks Darren, for your insight. Great Thread!

 

I read somewhere once that triathletes don't kick as they are saving their legs...looks like it's time i got a kickboard and maybe start adding some OW swim / run bricks also!!

 

I think the point is kicking for proper body roll so that your torso and not just your arms (with the relatively weak shoulder muscles) being deployed as the lever, so I don't think a lot of additional kick board kicking practice is called for - more drill work coordinating the catch phase of the lead arm with a kick starting from the hip to initiate body roll is better. Try slow swimming with a four beat kick - try not to cross your legs or flex your knee overly (but don't lock your legs - think of a kick where you are flicking sand off your feet)...

 

Instead of ow swim / run bricks try ow swim, transition, bike bricks ... Say 300m swim, long uphill run to mimic many T1s you'll find these days and a 3-4km hard bike...

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Swimming is a sport that is not natural to everyone. Walking, running, biking, all of these are quite easy to master, however, it takes some coordination and stamina to learn how to swim and to top it all off, before we improve our swim technique, we all have a different swimming style based on our physical ability which makes it that much more challenging.

Certain two facts on this post unequivocally the best we have all had.Training included more usage, originally as many smaller classes while we modified the action, and then longer classes to build fitness.I agreed what's said above!!!

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