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swanny

Swim Sets - I feel the need for speed!

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I don't understand the heart beat way of measuring it. The heart continues to beat once I stop racing and I don't slow down because my heart is tired.

 

Is the analogy one where by being more efficient in the water I have used less energy?

 

As far as goes the 15 to 20 K per week, it can be done but it is not the most efficient use of time. If you have a real job forget a swim in office hours, no employer will let you have the time required to get anything meaningful done, by the time I factor in getting to the pool and back, changed etc I get 30 minutes at best, still 1500 metres I suppose that I was not getting before.

 

Evenings there is no pool space in Canberra, so that means getting up every weekday morning and knocking them out in the squad with maybe another swim on the weekend in the late afternoon. Yes it can be done if one wants to do it badly enough, but then runs and bikes need to be done as well.

 

It is doable, but very hard if you have a job where you have to be on the ball every day. When i swim 5 mornings a week, with a lunchtime run and bike sessions in the evening I can't bring my A game to work, but this is part of the sacrifice if we want to get better. At this stage I am not prepared to sacrifice my livelihood for a 5 min faster IM swim

 

 

The challenge of age group racing...you do what you got to do

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Having read through this topic all I see is a whole lot of excuses of why people can't swim - family, work. its in efficient etc.....

 

What Jimmy, AP and Coach@ say is right.

 

I work, have a family and all those things but before Cairns I set myself a goal to improve my swim. I swam 5-6 times a week (only 1 main squad session and the rest by myself) and averaged over a 3-4 month period around 15km per week - went from a 1:01 IM swim time to 56min swim but the greatest benefit was how fresh I felt hoping out of the water.

 

It ain't rocket science - stop making excuses and just swim!!!!!!

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"The thing is AP it's just not a time effective option....

 

Getting home and slapping on your shoes is an easy option, very time effective."

 

I look at an athletes year as a whole - my goal is no injuries or illnesses - swimming an extra session and dodging an extra run works towards this goal :smile1:

 

We just had a fair sized group do the Forster Ultimate race last weekend - my standard squad layout of sessions has three morning sessions each week - in adition to that I offer two evening optional sessions (just 1hr and about 3km of drills and aerobic work)

 

The athletes who had breakthrough performances in Forster (that's breakthrough performances in swim, bike and run) are the same ones who took advantage of the two optional evening sessions every week :shy:

 

That is instead of swimming three swims a week for about 10-11km a week, they swam 16-17km a week :shock:

 

I keep the evening sessions as optional so an athlete who is tired, or who has family or work committments is not pressed into doing them - we have to fit triathlon around life (not the other way around)

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2m/100 pace is like running 7m/km- if someone ran that slow you'd stick to the basics of build some volume before worrying about trying to force the pace at all.

 

I think this is what I'm taking from this thread so far :)

 

And the comment about swimming 4 times a week

 

And yup, I'm a 2m/100 swimmer....... on a good day lol

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The thing I'm taking from this thread is I need to get more organised, stop making excuses and swim and ride more. 15k might be out of the question, but I realise I need to add another swim session if I'm going to improve. The closest pool to my work has just opened for the summer, so I should be able to do it at least during that time.

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You know what's missing in lots of cases ------------------- passion ------------------- committment

 

There's always a way ----------- if you want it bad enough :shy:

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You know what's missing in lots of cases ------------------- passion ------------------- committment

 

There's always a way ----------- if you want it bad enough :shy:

 

Hmm passion you say, passion leads to commitment, commitment leads to obsession, obsession leads to loneliness, that is the way of the dark side :starwars:

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For those that up their swim time considerqbly, has anyones partner ever complqined of a chlorine flavoured member?

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Hmm passion you say, passion leads to commitment, commitment leads to obsession, obsession leads to loneliness, that is the way of the dark side :starwars:

 

Do you think Chrissie is lonely?

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Would there be a benefit to doing 2 sessions in one day, if someone is time poor?

 

 

Yep. I did this a while ago on Tuesday's and Thursday's... Funny thing is I always felt really good getting in the water a second time in a day. I didn't see any drop off in speed after the morning session unless we were doing lactic sets in the PM, ouch! I've never felt better, been faster or got onto the bike fresher.

 

people underestimate how much the swim takes out of you....

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Interesting to read of the different philosophies adopted by folks to achieve their goals re swimming. I have been swimming consistently since I was a teenager and although that covers a 50 year period, I am now feeling just as good in the water as when I started, albeit slower. I am my own coach through convenience but have the discipline to set my own goals and to follow them through. I tend to avoid sets and drills and simply swim above race pace for the distance I set myself - presently 3km. I regard swimming as a good break from the leg fatigue of running and to some degree, cycling. I also have a long term approach to racing which means I train consistently week in and week out without a break, not for weeks or months but for decades! Not very scientific I know, but as you get older and if you are consistent and continue in the sport, you will find you cannot aim to get continually faster and may have to be satisfied with not getting slower. Age will affect your speed but will also reduce your competition eventually. Triathlon is one sport where you should be able to keep going for many decades if your fitness base, technique and attitude are right.

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You know what's missing in lots of cases ------------------- passion ------------------- committment

 

There's always a way ----------- if you want it bad enough :shy:

 

 

That is fine to say but there really are limits to swimming and getting there. For a start there are pool opening times. A lot of my training is done to be home by about 6:30am or not start until about 8:30pm. Local pool is only open 6.00am to 9.00pm and it takes about 10min to get there or get home. Evening swims aren't really an option, morning swims I can get a short one in.

 

Some days I sneak a swim in straight after work but that means not getting home until the kids are being fed which is not good to do too often.

 

So that leaves weekends...normally mornings are long ride and long run time (pool doesn't open until 8.00 on weekends) so I try to get a swim in while kids are having arvo sleep.

 

Out of that finding 5-6 hours to get 15km in just doesn't seem that feasible.

 

I know this sounds like a list of excuses, and I do have to do better, but this is reality for a lot of people.

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good summation Jon

 

you read any of the wise old sages from any sport- what you are doing counts for way more than the people who do try to make it all complex

 

to the dude who said you cant swim in Canberra- ffs

 

i used to fly down there for a project for 2.5 years getting up at 4.00am to make the plane

 

never had any problem ducking over to civic after work or early am, putting my head in the overheated water, swimming over all the wallies in the 2 lanes left for public and knocking out a swim for one hour (no intervals- intervals were passing the wallies)

 

i would eat go to sleep get up at 4am and knock out 1.5hrs before starting on a project site at 8am and not finishing till 6 or 7 then go out and train for an hour in evening

 

some days i'd only have enough time to absolutely belt 30 mins and then run for 40 mins straight after often as late as 8.30pm and i would just have light dinner or not bother.

 

either way it was one hour out of my life- just got it done- had 23 hrs in the day left

 

many of the nth americans have to do all the bikes on a compy and drive an hour to get to a pool

 

this truly is becoming a nation of weak people

 

coach@ or MJK would be two of the busiest guys on this board but still manage to get the training done

what you will find is neither worries about having to bend or train in less than ideal situation to get it done

they get it done year after year- probably twice as many years as most of us

it is this dogged boring consistency that makes them as good as they are

 

cant help but imagine what 80 year old Arthur L would have to say on this topic

 

 

Toolish if you really cant do it during the week then run more or do what you can instead

buy some swim cords or swim 2x per day when you have holidays or swim 3x each weekend

you'll find a way

just accept if you cant then you are unlikely to get much better

Edited by Jimmy C

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So who said swimming in Canberra cant be done? I live here and have worked in all but three of them. there is more than enough access... We have The AIS, CISAC, Canberra Olympic and Tuggeranong pools that are open year round, then in summer we get the added bonus of Phillip outdoor and Dickson outdoor.

 

I know that the AIS pool for example, has some strange opening hours but is more than available on a Saturday and Sunday night till 8pm and 10pm most nights mon-fri. I know you cant use it morning due to squads training.

 

CISAC is open early till late, as is Tuggeranong and Canberra Olympic. All three have public lanes at all times. I think it's time to HTFU and JFT.....

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Jimmy touched on an important point that I reckon permeates everything you need to do in the sport to move forward and improve.....worldview

 

There is pain tolerance, resilience, tenacity etc. Most of us have all of those things in different measure. Once you find the reason to race, and the level you want to aspire to - then the rest will fall into place. You will find the time, and not see training at 4am in the early mornings as sacrifice. Counting the cost will always stifle improvement, consistency, and longevity.

 

Some may call it obsession, and it probably is, sometimes it gets unhealthy and unbalanced. But when have any of us not been unhealthy or unbalanced in other areas of life? I'm lucky i've got a wife who nags and is not afraid to tell me to pull my head in. It's saved my life more than once.

 

You want to get better at swimming? Easy, depending on your perspective. IMHO it's not dependant on work, family, distance, lane space etc. They can all be overcome if you really want it.

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Jimmy touched on an important point that I reckon permeates everything you need to do in the sport to move forward and improve.....worldview

 

There is pain tolerance, resilience, tenacity etc. Most of us have all of those things in different measure. Once you find the reason to race, and the level you want to aspire to - then the rest will fall into place. You will find the time, and not see training at 4am in the early mornings as sacrifice. Counting the cost will always stifle improvement, consistency, and longevity.

 

Some may call it obsession, and it probably is, sometimes it gets unhealthy and unbalanced. But when have any of us not been unhealthy or unbalanced in other areas of life? I'm lucky i've got a wife who nags and is not afraid to tell me to pull my head in. It's saved my life more than once.

 

You want to get better at swimming? Easy, depending on your perspective. IMHO it's not dependant on work, family, distance, lane space etc. They can all be overcome if you really want it.

 

No need to overcome anything, just take up masters cycling

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coach@ or MJK would be two of the busiest guys on this board but still manage to get the training done

what you will find is neither worries about having to bend or train in less than ideal situation to get it done

they get it done year after year- probably twice as many years as most of us

it is this dogged boring consistency that makes them as good as they are

 

Want to get something done, give it to a busy person.

 

Swimming for most MOP or BOP people is the best bang for buck training that you can do. Devote 5 hours a week to it for 48 weeks of the year and you will be fitter than you ever have been and have less injuries.

 

It is a complete no brainer. You will also enjoy your racing a hell of a lot more because you get out with faster athletes who (even though you are not drafting of course) will drag you along with them even if it is for the first 15 minutes of your TT. You start a race that positively and it will more often than not trickle through your entire performance on the day.

 

The conditioning received from 15k per week is proven. It is not open for discussion or interpretation.

 

Jimmy C's very first post in this thread is definitive. Should have locked the thread after that. It is all you need to know.

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Want to get something done, give it to a busy person.

 

Swimming for most MOP or BOP people is the best bang for buck training that you can do. Devote 5 hours a week to it for 48 weeks of the year and you will be fitter than you ever have been and have less injuries.

 

It is a complete no brainer. You will also enjoy your racing a hell of a lot more because you get out with faster athletes who (even though you are not drafting of course) will drag you along with them even if it is for the first 15 minutes of your TT. You start a race that positively and it will more often than not trickle through your entire performance on the day.

 

The conditioning received from 15k per week is proven. It is not open for discussion or interpretation.

 

Jimmy C's very first post in this thread is definitive. Should have locked the thread after that. It is all you need to know.

 

This is a great point. Last season was my first season and I was always last out of the water. Chasing chicks on mountain bikes is not fun. I hope my swim has improved a litte bit since then..............

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This is a great point. Last season was my first season and I was always last out of the water. Chasing chicks on mountain bikes is not fun. I hope my swim has improved a litte bit since then..............

 

 

This brought a smile to my face, I remember my first tri. I could barely swim! 200m took me nearly 6mins (I'm not sure you can actually swim that slow) I have now completed some pretty long races so there's hope!

 

Took me about 18months to go from a 400m TT in 9.40 to a 400m TT in 5.59. I still have the goal of one day swimming 4.59 :lol: but a minute is a long way especially when I'm back to a 7.50 TT :blush:

 

Just keep swimming and slowly but surely you'll work it out :)

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That

 

This brought a smile to my face, I remember my first tri. I could barely swim! 200m took me nearly 6mins (I'm not sure you can actually swim that slow) I have now completed some pretty long races so there's hope!

 

Took me about 18months to go from a 400m TT in 9.40 to a 400m TT in 5.59. I still have the goal of one day swimming 4.59 :lol: but a minute is a long way especially when I'm back to a 7.50 TT :blush:

 

Just keep swimming and slowly but surely you'll work it out :)

 

 

That is an impressive drop in your 400TT in 18 months. Well done

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That is an impressive drop in your 400TT in 18 months. Well done

 

 

Cheers HL.

 

I don't think it was terribly hard, it was a process... Get enough flexibility through my shoulders and back to allow my technique to improve to where it needed to be. I had a terrible kick and worked on that a lot. My kick actually came on a lot stronger after a few months, I personally think having the strength through my hips and core were the key to my swim improving so much. My kick was pretty good after 6 months (I spent about half my time kicking), took the other 12months to really get the whole body working. I think had i kept it up for another year i could have taken another 10 secs off per 100.....

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good summation Jon

 

you read any of the wise old sages from any sport- what you are doing counts for way more than the people who do try to make it all complex

 

to the dude who said you cant swim in Canberra- ffs

 

i used to fly down there for a project for 2.5 years getting up at 4.00am to make the plane

 

never had any problem ducking over to civic after work or early am, putting my head in the overheated water, swimming over all the wallies in the 2 lanes left for public and knocking out a swim for one hour (no intervals- intervals were passing the wallies)

 

i would eat go to sleep get up at 4am and knock out 1.5hrs before starting on a project site at 8am and not finishing till 6 or 7 then go out and train for an hour in evening

 

some days i'd only have enough time to absolutely belt 30 mins and then run for 40 mins straight after often as late as 8.30pm and i would just have light dinner or not bother.

 

either way it was one hour out of my life- just got it done- had 23 hrs in the day left

 

many of the nth americans have to do all the bikes on a compy and drive an hour to get to a pool

 

this truly is becoming a nation of weak people

 

coach@ or MJK would be two of the busiest guys on this board but still manage to get the training done

what you will find is neither worries about having to bend or train in less than ideal situation to get it done

they get it done year after year- probably twice as many years as most of us

it is this dogged boring consistency that makes them as good as they are

 

cant help but imagine what 80 year old Arthur L would have to say on this topic

 

 

Toolish if you really cant do it during the week then run more or do what you can instead

buy some swim cords or swim 2x per day when you have holidays or swim 3x each weekend

you'll find a way

just accept if you cant then you are unlikely to get much better

 

I did not say you can't swim in Canberra, I was pointing out some of the difficulties. I also pointed out if I wanted it bad enough I could get it done, but it will be at the expense of performing well at work, 5 days a week swimming week days the only time that gets lane space, plus 3 to 4 bikes and running 6 days a week that I will be pretty tired. If I don't sleep I don't perform well at work do that and I am putting at risk my livelihood.

 

I've done the swim 15 to 20 K per week with one up to 6000 metres because each swim session has a cost of at least one hour and some times more in time going to and coming back from the pool, unless you can afford to live right next to your pool. for doing that distance I went the princely sum of 4 mins quicker in an Im swim (68 to 64) ditched that and swam 3 times 3000 per week, sometimes only two, biked and ran more and harder and went exactly the same as I did 64 the year before and went much faster in the other legs. Same held true for the half and below distance, actually swam faster at Husky and rode 10 faster and ran faster by swimming less.

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agree with all your points on sacrifice, if I want it bad enough I will sacrifice other things and get it done. I did the swimming and stopped it as it did not work, but running and biking more did work so I do what works for me.

 

As for swimming in Canberra, yes you can get a lane often one lane at any time, this is not advisable. Evenings are crazy and mornign is the only time to do it and there is always space, if you can do that 5 days a week, fit the rest in then yes it is easy and there are no constraints, other than for me needing to sleep, which is what stops me doing it.

 

As for getting up at 4 am unless you are riding or running to the pool you can stay in bed till 5

Edited by BarryBevan

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This brought a smile to my face, I remember my first tri. I could barely swim! 200m took me nearly 6mins (I'm not sure you can actually swim that slow) I have now completed some pretty long races so there's hope!

 

Took me about 18months to go from a 400m TT in 9.40 to a 400m TT in 5.59. I still have the goal of one day swimming 4.59 :lol: but a minute is a long way especially when I'm back to a 7.50 TT :blush:

 

Just keep swimming and slowly but surely you'll work it out :)

 

 

Cheers HL.

 

I don't think it was terribly hard, it was a process... Get enough flexibility through my shoulders and back to allow my technique to improve to where it needed to be. I had a terrible kick and worked on that a lot. My kick actually came on a lot stronger after a few months, I personally think having the strength through my hips and core were the key to my swim improving so much. My kick was pretty good after 6 months (I spent about half my time kicking), took the other 12months to really get the whole body working. I think had i kept it up for another year i could have taken another 10 secs off per 100.....

 

 

Thanks! I'll work at it!

 

I time myself over 400m from time to time. I learnt to swim in January 2010. In October 2010 I swam 9:30 at squad (I was probably drafting), and my best was a 8:42 solo effort in April this year. I'm currently at 9 min (but coming back after 2 months off after surgery in late July).

 

I suspect my terrible core strength is a factor....

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Cheers HL.

 

I don't think it was terribly hard, it was a process... Get enough flexibility through my shoulders and back to allow my technique to improve to where it needed to be. I had a terrible kick and worked on that a lot. My kick actually came on a lot stronger after a few months, I personally think having the strength through my hips and core were the key to my swim improving so much. My kick was pretty good after 6 months (I spent about half my time kicking), took the other 12months to really get the whole body working. I think had i kept it up for another year i could have taken another 10 secs off per 100.....

 

 

I think we should do another thread entirely devoted to the importance of a strong swim kick. This is not to say that i have one.

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Thanks! I'll work at it!

 

I time myself over 400m from time to time. I learnt to swim in January 2010. In October 2010 I swam 9:30 at squad (I was probably drafting), and my best was a 8:42 solo effort in April this year. I'm currently at 9 min (but coming back after 2 months off after surgery in late July).

 

I suspect my terrible core strength is a factor....

 

 

If you literally only learnt to swim 18months ago or so 8.42 shows a lot of promise. IMHO no reason why you couldnt get down to a 6min 400 in another 2 years or better.

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I think we should do another thread entirely devoted to the importance of a strong swim kick.

 

 

The "tubular vs clinchers" of the swim leg :lol:

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I think we should do another thread entirely devoted to the importance of a strong swim kick. This is not to say that i have one.

 

 

Having a strong kick is not the issue, having an good kick to minimise drag and improve balance is.

 

fluro

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In my opinion, there are two parts to the equation. Being a 'good' swimmer, but also being swimming fit, regardless of your level.

 

Personally, I think that if you are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to become a 2m+/100 to a 1.30/100 swimmer, then technique work should play a big part of the progression. I can't really see the point in getting up at 4-5am & slogging out the k's otherwise.

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I think we should do another thread entirely devoted to the importance of a strong swim kick. This is not to say that i have one.

 

 

I don't have a brilliant kick, but I think there are a lot of people that would benefit from improving it... II think it was more the strength gains and getting used to my hips sitting at a different angle to running that allowed my body position as a whole to change. IF that makes sense?

 

 

In fact I did very little actual swimming, most of what I did for a good 12months was break each part of my stroke down and practice most of the bits individually.

 

 

 

Having a strong kick is not the issue, having an good kick to minimise drag and improve balance is.

 

fluro

 

 

Disagree, being able to knock out some quality kick sets will definitely improve your swimming to no end. Yes it definitely helps make you more efficient, but the strength gained through you hips and core from really working on the kick (I did a lot of fly kick on both front and back, with and without flippers) is where you will gain quite a lot (Well in my case at least)

 

 

If you literally only learnt to swim 18months ago or so 8.42 shows a lot of promise. IMHO no reason why you couldnt get down to a 6min 400 in another 2 years or better.

 

 

I think a 6.59 or better is highly achievable before you see another 24 months of swimming out... Best thing someone ever told me whilst swimming was 'RELAX'. Also try and learn all four strokes...

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If you literally only learnt to swim 18months ago or so 8.42 shows a lot of promise. IMHO no reason why you couldnt get down to a 6min 400 in another 2 years or better.

 

Really appreciate the encouragement :) Squad coach is talking sub 7min at the moment. I've got a long way to go to even get there from 9min.

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The problem is an AG'er considers 1.5 to 2.5k swim a good session. Say your swimming 3/4 times a week, bump up those sessions to 4ks. Its a waste to swim 40mins, you will spend much more time getting there, changed, parking etc than actually swimming

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Canberra is spoilt with pool, I use 3 different week in week out. CISAC in the mornings (more lanes=less people), AIS in the evenings at Canberra Olympic when I'm too lazy to do a 10min drive and I feel like some light entertainment (there are so many weirdos at that pool)

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I think we should do another thread entirely devoted to the importance of a strong swim kick. This is not to say that i have one.

 

The "tubular vs clinchers" of the swim leg :lol:

 

And which side of the fence to you sit on D?

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The problem is an AG'er considers 1.5 to 2.5k swim a good session. Say your swimming 3/4 times a week, bump up those sessions to 4ks. Its a waste to swim 40mins, you will spend much more time getting there, changed, parking etc than actually swimming

 

 

4kms is probably unrealistic for most AGers.

 

If you put your head down and do quality u can get a lot of improvement from a 3km swim set (x4 per week, or 3 + 1 OWS)

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One thing I've noticed is the top end speed is not there and diminishing. I've started one day a week doing as many flat out 50s as possible with a walkback recovery. Warmed up for a k or so then did 8 x 50s holding about 30. Fastest 29 slowest 31. Then did 200 easy. Will back up in a couple of hours. My waterpolo team are playing so will do a 400 TT while i'm there at the pool. Friday is now lactate/speed day. Be interesting to see if there is any change in race performances in a few months time.

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Guest Gimili

One thing I've noticed is the top end speed is not there and diminishing. I've started one day a week doing as many flat out 50s as possible with a walkback recovery. Warmed up for a k or so then did 8 x 50s holding about 30. Fastest 29 slowest 31. Then did 200 easy. Will back up in a couple of hours. My waterpolo team are playing so will do a 400 TT while i'm there at the pool. Friday is now lactate/speed day. Be interesting to see if there is any change in race performances in a few months time.

 

Rookie mistake, needs to be 10 x 50.

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Guest Gimili

And ffs people, you wanna swim, join a squad like coach@ and mrscoach@ run at engadine pool, there endeth the lesson.

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Guest Gimili

 

 

You would have been screwed with this set - dive starts ;)

 

Not sure getting out of the pool is that easy anymore either.....

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