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Power Guys: Best way to Increase FTP for 70.3

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Just after a bit of Inside info here guys, especially to the knowledgeable likes of Fluro and AP but also to all those that know power.

 

What have you found best to increase your FTP in relation to 70.3 racing/training? Do you find a specific interval length/type/quantity/intensity better than another and if so whats your workout involve?

 

Is it best to do intervals @ 90%-100% FTP and "recover" within tempo (generally speaking race pace) or just spin the legs over in recovery?

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Just after a bit of Inside info here guys, especially to the knowledgeable likes of Fluro and AP but also to all those that know power.

 

What have you found best to increase your FTP in relation to 70.3 racing/training? Do you find a specific interval length/type/quantity/intensity better than another and if so whats your workout involve?

 

Is it best to do intervals @ 90%-100% FTP and "recover" within tempo (generally speaking race pace) or just spin the legs over in recovery?

You should grab a copy of the book Racing and Training with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen. It will help you work out the best zones to be training in to increase your FTP, and when the best time during your training and race schedule to do it. It is THE bible for training with power on a bike and will help you get the most out of your expensive toy.

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especially to the knowledgeable likes of Fluro and AP but also to those that know power.

 

Fluro will be filthy you bagged his knowledge of power.

 

 

I am sure he will reply anyway, you have got him at the perfect time. He has a spare 20 hours a week at the moment. I reckon 6 paragraphs at least.

Edited by Diamonds

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You should grab a copy of the book Racing and Training with a Power Meter by Hunter Allen. It will help you work out the best zones to be training in to increase your FTP, and when the best time during your training and race schedule to do it. It is THE bible for training with power on a bike and will help you get the most out of your expensive toy.

 

Do have a copy mate and agree in term of the bible but was just seeing if there was any personal experiences that people felt were beneficial..

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Fluro will be filthy you bagged his knowledge of power.

 

 

I am sure he will reply anyway, you have got him at the perfect time. He has a spare 20 hours a week at the moment. I reckon 6 paragraphs at least.

 

I'm about to have a mental breakdown not being able to do anything for the next 2 weeks other than be a keyboard nazi. :lol:

 

 

Spend 6 weeks building up to being able to execute at least 3 x FT's each week

 

wk1: 6 x 4min @ 100% of FTP, 2min RI

wk2: 3 x 8min @ 95-100% of FTP, 3min RI

wk3: 3 x 10min @ 100% of FTP, 3min RI

wk4: 2 x 15min @ 95-100% of FTP, 5min RI

wk5: 3 x 15min @ 100% of FTP, 3min RI

wk6: 2 x 20min @ 95-100% of FTP, 2min RI **This is your starting point**

 

Do these 3 days a week, but mix up the terrain (flat, rolling, hill repeats, out and backs, etc). 2 days on, 1 day off, 1 day on, 1 day off,repeat..........

 

That will then get you ready to address your FTP.....

 

This is what I do and prescribe

 

Day1: 2 x 20min @ 95-100% of FTP

Day2: 1 x 20min (broken intervals if you prefer) @ 105-110% of FTP, every second or third week do V02 intervals (I struggled with these), eg 4 x 4min @ 110-115% of FTP, with a 4min RI

Day3: rest

Day 4-6: repeats days 1-3.

 

Keep repeating this week over and over again, we did 16 weeks in a row before the results began to plateau, then we rested, tapered and raced.

 

Don't expect to swim and run much and still be able to maintain this sort of plan. But, your results will be instant and weekly, if you're looking at raising for FTP on the bike. If it is too close to your race then maybe save it for an offseason bike focus block

 

Hope it helps,

 

fluro

 

P.S for those who need it to be evidence based

 

firstly, you’ve earned another 6 pack of beer fluro. Your race plan worked a miracle. I had no expectation of being able to win today given that my main rival XXXX (Mr Triathlon WA, triathlon 296) was going to set up a huge lead in the swim (4-5 minutes) and he always rides very hard, and in all the other City of Perth oly races he has easily beaten me (except when he was DQ’d a few seasons back. He also used to run about 38 minutes for the 10ks in OLY races. My hope/goal was to limit his winning time so I’d have a chance of holding on to the leader’s jersey if we were on the same number of points after today in the 5 race trievents series. Anyway, I gave your experiment a go and gave it all on the bike so I’d feel “legless” after the ride. I managed to peg back a few minutes against XXX on the bike and I could see he was getting a little worried, but I wasn’t sure how he was going to run. He had about 2 minutes lead into the run. I was legless after the bike but I stuck to the plan of running the first 5 ks at sprint distance pace. Before half way into the run I realised that I was not only going to be able to limit the damage, but I was going to be able to pass..............I can't believe I won fluro

Edited by fluro2au

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see... run the first 5k as hard as you can, that's straight out of triathlons soon-to-be new bible, YoYo "Panache & Performance : Triathlon YoYo style and other reasons i'm better than you".

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You don't increase FTP for 70.3, you increase FTP to have a higher FTP. FTP is just a thing to measure a max output over 60 minutes. Are you asking a question more along the lines of how do I increase the power I can hold over a certaion distance, that being 90km? That is a different question entirely. When I had my highest FTP, I would doubt I could actually ride for 180km let alone at some percentage of FTP for that distance.

 

The term I expect will come up in discusion is going to be CPXXX or Critical Power over your required duration of say 150 minutes which would be CP150. It is not an entirely accurate term as Critical Power is a different thing but gets used this way.

 

So is your question how to increase FTP or how to ride a 90km TT that requires you to run a half marathon after?

 

Here is a good list of terms and definitions

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16679521

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You don't increase FTP for 70.3, you increase FTP to have a higher FTP. FTP is just a thing to measure a max output over 60 minutes. Are you asking a question more along the lines of how do I increase the power I can hold over a certaion distance, that being 90km? That is a different question entirely. When I had my highest FTP, I would doubt I could actually ride for 180km let alone at some percentage of FTP for that distance.

 

The term I expect will come up in discusion is going to be CPXXX or Critical Power over your required duration of say 150 minutes which would be CP150. It is not an entirely accurate term as Critical Power is a different thing but gets used this way.

 

So is your question how to increase FTP or how to ride a 90km TT that requires you to run a half marathon after?

 

Here is a good list of terms and definitions

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16679521

 

If you focus on increasing your FTP then your basically giving yourself your biggest bang for your buck in terms of adaptations. Just look at Coggans sweet spot table (don't know how to post his table) and you'll notice how you can achieve your biggest bang for your buck in terms of overload.. For example;

 

Increased muscle mitochondrial enzymes

Increased lactate threshold

Increased muscle glycogen storage

Interconversion of fast twitch muscle fibers (type

IIb type IIa)

Increased stroke volume/maximal cardiac output

Increased VO2max

 

All these adaptations are best addressed/achieved in zone 3-4.

 

Those adaptations then become available to use at sub FT efforts. It then takes just a small amount of specific training, ie "meeting the demands of the event" to then improve your CPXXX over the distance it is you wish to cover. But at the end of the day on any given day, getting aerobically fitter should be your number goal. Once you start dropping down below Coggans sweet spot then you need to think about adding alot more time/volume in order to experience similar adaptations, which is what IM athletes should be doing in just their IM specific preps.

 

fluro

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Agreed and that is my entire point. The question asked is how does he increase his FTP for 70.3 and an increase in FTP alone will not see a faster 90km bike leg, it will just see an increase in FTP.

 

I personally think that long course triathletes worry too much about FTP. I think that everybody's favourite word 'tempo' is the place to be at.

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I personally think that long course triathletes worry too much about FTP. I think that everybody's favourite word 'tempo' is the place to be at.

 

Agreed.

 

In my own personal training I have found that being able to hold top end of Z3 (but does involve some FT work peaking at the pointy end of season) works best for me. If you can hold mid to top of z 3 for the ride, from my experience sets up a pretty good ride. I tend to do some FT work one day and longer Z3 sets another day + long ride.

 

Each to their own I guess though.

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Agreed and that is my entire point. The question asked is how does he increase his FTP for 70.3 and an increase in FTP alone will not see a faster 90km bike leg, it will just see an increase in FTP.

 

I used to think along those line too, but now I'm swaying in the other direction. :lol:

 

Lets pull specificity out of the equation, and if you were told to go away for 6months and get as fit as you possibly could not knowing what distance event you would be asked to complete upon your return, what sort of training would you do?.....FTP training, sub FTP focus, V02, etc..

 

Another scenario, if you were to switch the current world record holder for 10km and the world marathon record holder and reverse their events who do you think will adapt the fastest. Do you think the marathoner will improve/adapt faster than the 10k runner trying to step up to a marathon?

 

Meeting the demands of the event is the easy part, training to become aerobically fit is so much harder and time consuming, hence why it is so much easier to return to peak fitness and opposed to gaining new fitness. Adapting the energy systems is hard work and requires alot of effort, but it will give you the biggest bang for your buck. Hence why we have FOP's, MOP's and BOP's....it's not an easy process.

 

I honestly thought I was screwed entering the TOB having no hills here in Perth, but by focusing on raising my FTP, you soon learn those adaptations becomes available to use over any distance at the right level of effort.

 

fluro

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Two cyclists. Send them both off for one year. They then return having the exact same FTP. One of them never rode longer than 60 minutes in one session in the year but the other one had a weekly 180km ride. The next day, send them off for a 180km TT. Who would win?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying FTP is not something to look at and increase but I say again, the original question in the thread refers to two things that are not mutually dependant, a 70.3 bike leg and FTP.

 

A specific personal example is the guy I mentioned to you with his sub hour OD bike leg recently. I rode the same race as him in 1:07 and got off and ran 10 minutes slower than him. We weigh nearly the same but I am a little taller. We went out and tested FTP last week and ours were nearly the same (mine was 5 watts higher). He does a weekly 150km ride with much of it in Zone 3 as it is a reasonable group (Team Abu Dhabi and Qatar national team partake). I do a 55-60km ride twice a week at about 70%-80% of FTP.

 

I tried to do the ride with them a few weeks back and had to sit in the bunch the last hour hanging on for dear life and spent the rest of the week recovering. He rode most of the ride at the front. We have a similar FTP and watts/kilo at that yet I did not have the specific endurance for a 4 hour ride. My average watts for the ride were well below his yet he was in far better shape at the end than I. Again, same weight, same FTP. There is no way I could do an Ironman right now yet a guy with the same FTP at the same weight as me is looking like putting in a pretty good result.

 

FTP is just your FTP. It means jack over 90 or 180km. My FTP is now about 325 and there is no way in hell I could go and ride at 230 watts (70% of FTP) for 180km. Conversely, if I did have the endurance to ride 180km, I would expect that coupled with continuing the training that allowed me to ride 180km with some FTP workouts, the 180km time would come down but not the other way around.

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(1)Two cyclists. Send them both off for one year. They then return having the exact same FTP. One of them never rode longer than 60 minutes in one session in the year but the other one had a weekly 180km ride. The next day, send them off for a 180km TT. Who would win?

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying FTP is not something to look at and increase but I say again, the original question in the thread refers to two things that are not mutually dependant, a 70.3 bike leg and FTP.

 

(2)A specific personal example is the guy I mentioned to you with his sub hour OD bike leg recently. I rode the same race as him in 1:07 and got off and ran 10 minutes slower than him. We weigh nearly the same but I am a little taller. We went out and tested FTP last week and ours were nearly the same (mine was 5 watts higher). He does a weekly 150km ride with much of it in Zone 3 as it is a reasonable group (Team Abu Dhabi and Qatar national team partake). I do a 55-60km ride twice a week at about 70%-80% of FTP.

 

I tried to do the ride with them a few weeks back and had to sit in the bunch the last hour hanging on for dear life and spent the rest of the week recovering. He rode most of the ride at the front. We have a similar FTP and watts/kilo at that yet I did not have the specific endurance for a 4 hour ride. My average watts for the ride were well below his yet he was in far better shape at the end than I. Again, same weight, same FTP. There is no way I could do an Ironman right now yet a guy with the same FTP at the same weight as me is looking like putting in a pretty good result.

 

(3)FTP is just your FTP. It means jack over 90 or 180km. My FTP is now about 325 and there is no way in hell I could go and ride at 230 watts (70% of FTP) for 180km. Conversely, if I did have the endurance to ride 180km, I would expect that coupled with continuing the training that allowed me to ride 180km with some FTP workouts, the 180km time would come down but not the other way around.

 

(1) My point is sending the athlete off for the year so they return with a higher FTP then the other athlete. it's not about having the same FTP and then seeing who can hold sub threshold efforts the best, the guy who has spent the most amount of time at that sub threshold effort will allows do better, that's the specificity principle which forms part of your HIM/OLY/IM specific preps.

 

(2) this is where I think we differ, IF you worked on your FTP and it was highly, then your potential to ride faster with specific sub thresholds efforts is far greater then an athlete with a lower FTP, all else being equal. Once you start putting together a few 150km also, with a higher FTP you'll be riding faster. This why having a higher FTP as a starting point is so important, then just spend time adapting to the longer sub threshold efforts.

At the end of the day two guys have the same bike split, one rides at 70% of FTP for 5hrs and the other guys rides at 75% of FTP for 5hrs, all else being equal who is going to be in a better shape at the end of the ride?

 

(3)..I think your best bike split will come as result of having the highest FTP (relative to yourself) in order to ride at the lowest energy cost. Training to ride at a higher % of FTP becomes sub optimal for most age groupers, it can be done but leads to sub optimal runs, due to the increased energy cost of riding too close to your FTP.

 

 

 

fluro

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None of the above do I disagree with. We are getting way away from the subject. I will try and make my original point in a short statement based on the questoion that was asked originally which was "What have you found best to increase your FTP in relation to 70.3 racing/training?"

 

You don't increase yor FTP in relation to anything other than FTP.

 

also

 

FTP is not a reflection of any power potential over any duration other than the FTP specific duration.

 

 

All of the rest of the discussion is information that is totally useful for training discussion but my point is that FTP itself is not the single focus.

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Thanks for the replies Plaz and Fluro, making a very interesting discussion.

 

Few things i think i should clear up before we continue :lol:

 

I am not a complete newbie in training with power, but again not the most experienced. I have probably been training with it for 6 weeks and have researched what i can do to get the most out of it.

 

I was previously doing 2 x FTP (2 x 20min, 20min SST/1 x 20min, 1 x 15min, 40min Tempo) and 1 x V02 (5 x 5min, 2 x 3min) workouts per week as well as 1 x Long (usually of 4hrs+), 1 x Recovery and 1 x Tempo. A bit of work i know but what else is there to do on Holidays! I have now replaced one of the FTP workouts for an Upper Endurance/Tempo ride and increased the intensity of my already current tempo and FTP sessions as i felt doing 2 x FTP and 1 x v02 was taking to much out of my legs and sacrificing the quality of other sessions, including running.

 

I have a pretty low FTP of about 3.02w/kg but at 181cm and 69kg I consider the run my stronger discipline, hence why I want to increase my FTP. I have a good base in terms of 70.3 racing and am going to start increasing the efforts and intensity in my longer rides to hopefully be able to sustain a high % of my FTP for the full 90km - As Plaz has mentioned.

 

My theory is in increasing FTP and V02 you become a well rounded athlete and i truly believe to become a good and "fast" triathlete you have to be good at all distances. Further increasing your FTP allows you to have more "room" in Tempo or the ability to hold higher watts without going over you threshold.

 

I do agree with what Plaz has said about CP150 and believe that you should train that as ultimately that will be close enough to race pace, but in balancing training is it not more efficient to train for a higher FTP by either going into Threshold range and pulling it up and SST and pushing it up?

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Training shouldn't be seen to only fall into being of a specific type - there is cross-over and they are complimentary to each other. Having said that, specificity is the key to your best performance...training to increase your FTP will improve your specific 1hr performance.

 

In order to improve your 70.3 bike performance, I'd say that the along the way your FTP will likely improve, but that should not be your primary goal...which should be your performance over 90km. Specificity.

 

I'd be structuring your bike training over a period of time, as follows:

Speed / power - 4-6 weeks

Speed endurance (aka VO2 max) - 4-6 weeks

Threshold (aka FTP) - 4-6 weeks

Race specific - 6-8 weeks, incl taper

 

Speed endurance is the most productive training session you can do, but also the most stressful.

 

The magic figure of 4-6 weeks is what is typically necessary for adaptation to a training stimulus to occur. But depending on the profile of the athlete these periods may be a different length, and depending on the time until your target race.

 

The basic approach in these phases is to 1) raise the ceiling on your maximum capacity (via speed / speed endurance), then 2) to push the boundary on your endurance, training specifically to maintain your target effort level for the duration of the target event.

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I will never be able to use a Power Meter in my life. All these numbers make me want to throw up - and I used to be very good with numbers :lol:

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G’day CEM

 

 

***Training shouldn't be seen to only fall into being of a specific type - there is cross-over and they are complimentary to each other.***

 

I wouldn’t see it as a cross-over, it is something your aiming to achieve in the muscles so that it can be used across all intensities....ie increased aerobic capacity. Here in Perth we have probably Australia’s fastest age group biker, even outsplit Sindabelle one year in IMNZ. He is also knocking off some of Jack Bobridge 20km ATTA race TT records.

 

 

 

***Having said that, specificity is the key to your best performance...training to increase your FTP will improve your specific 1hr performance.***

 

Yes I agree specificity is the key, but I don’t look at FTP training to specifically improve 1hr performance, I look at it from a aerobic endurance capacity adaptation point of view (ie adaptations to the muscle, that become beneficial to the athlete at any distance)

 

***In order to improve your 70.3 bike performance, I'd say that the along the way your FTP will likely improve, but that should not be your primary goal...which should be your performance over 90km. Specificity.***

 

Have your highest FTP as a starting point going into your event specific preps will set up the potential to achieve greater event specific adaptations in that final build period……..in other words raise the left first (FTP) in order to have more room to fill the right (CPXXX)

 

***I'd be structuring your bike training over a period of time, as follows:

Speed / power - 4-6 weeks

Speed endurance (aka VO2 max) - 4-6 weeks

Threshold (aka FTP) - 4-6 weeks

Race specific - 6-8 weeks, incl taper****

 

Do you feel 4-6 weeks is long enough? I’m finding it takes 4-6 weeks to just get the athlete into a state of readiness (mental and physical) in order to handle those sorts to specific loads. For example, you just can’t jump into doing 2 x 20min @ FTP it takes a good 4-6 weeks to build up to the overload necessary to start making the adaptations?

 

**Speed endurance is the most productive training session you can do, but also the most stressful.**

 

It certainly does hurt, but if you go back over Coggan’s files he mentions that the physiological stresses on the body tend to out way the benefits, hence his “sweet spot” zone.

 

***The magic figure of 4-6 weeks is what is typically necessary for adaptation to a training stimulus to occur. But depending on the profile of the athlete these periods may be a different length, and depending on the time until your target race. ***

 

 

I generally use 8-12 weeks blocks, 4-6 weeks to prepare the athlete for the overload

 

 

***The basic approach in these phases is to 1) raise the ceiling on your maximum capacity (via speed / speed endurance), then 2) to push the boundary on your endurance, training specifically to maintain your target effort level for the duration of the target event.***

 

This is exactly what I believe, raise the left to fill the right…….reverse periodisation…….go fast then go long, etc……..If you have a high ceiling to start with that boundary gets pushed out further and further and your potential to increase your event specific CP becomes far higher with event specific training.

 

 

fluro

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What is an example of a speed endurance session?

Speed sessions

20-40sec at fast and controlled pace. Not sprinting. Getting faster.

 

Speed endurance sessions

3-5min reps with equal recovery, total of ~20min effort per session.

The aim is recover enough so the next rep can equally as hard.

Pace the first rep so the last rep does not slow by any more than 3-5%.

 

Threshold

20min up to 40min (advanced) per session, in reps of 5min or longer with about 5:1 work:rest ratio.

The longer the rep, the lower the effort level.

Effort level is approx FTP, or a fraction harder, depending on the duration of the rep.

 

Race specific

Depends on the target race.

 

 

Do you feel 4-6 weeks is long enough

Depends on how much time is available until the target race, and the profile of the athlete (strengths and weaknesses).

 

Speed block would be no longer than 6 weeks because for endurance athletes there's diminishing returns from this training type, and usually shorter, but depends on the starting point of the athlete's fitness.

 

Speed endurance block would also be no longer than 6 weeks because this training type is high stress and has a rapid effect on fitness to the effect that it will bring an athlete to a peak quickly, which is not always desirable during this block.

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Guest C.C
Speed endurance is the most productive training session you can do, but also the most stressful.

 

for a 90k steady state TT I Totally disagree! longer Intervals (6 mins +) at slightly below to slightly above your threshold/ FTP is more productive. Speed endurance is great if you are training for pursuits, road races, crits but done incorrectly and for too long will bury you!

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for a 90k steady state TT I Totally disagree! longer Intervals (6 mins +) at slightly below to slightly above your threshold/ FTP is more productive. Speed endurance is great if you are training for pursuits, road races, crits but done incorrectly and for too long will bury you!

I said the most productive training session, that is, greatest increase in fitness over the shortest period of time. Chris Carmichael's book "Training for time crunched cyclists" relies on this kind of session - or slight variations to it - heavily.

 

As I noted in the same sentence, and the later post, speed endurance is highly stressful and "...this training type is high stress and has a rapid effect on fitness to the effect that it will bring an athlete to a peak quickly, which is not always desirable during this block."

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....

In order to improve your 70.3 bike performance, I'd say that the along the way your FTP will likely improve, but that should not be your primary goal...which should be your performance over 90km. Specificity.

 

I'd be structuring your bike training over a period of time, as follows:

Speed / power - 4-6 weeks

Speed endurance (aka VO2 max) - 4-6 weeks

Threshold (aka FTP) - 4-6 weeks

Race specific - 6-8 weeks, incl taper

 

Speed endurance is the most productive training session you can do, but also the most stressful.

 

The magic figure of 4-6 weeks is what is typically necessary for adaptation to a training stimulus to occur. But depending on the profile of the athlete these periods may be a different length, and depending on the time until your target race.

 

The basic approach in these phases is to 1) raise the ceiling on your maximum capacity (via speed / speed endurance), then 2) to push the boundary on your endurance, training specifically to maintain your target effort level for the duration of the target event.

 

Good to see your thoughts CEM. I do agree on a few things here which i will state in a moment but also one thing that i fail to understand is;

 

If you train to FTP Once or Twice a week and can improve your figures by say 20w, then is this not allowing you to further train you CP150 at a higher level, in which it relates to what your basic approach is... get the power, work the endurance?

 

E.g. you have a whopping FTP of 400w (mmm that would make me go quick!) which means your Tempo range is 75-90% of that FTP Figure so in this case it would be 300w - 360w. Now because your an animal in training you magically increase you FTP by 50w, making it now an FTP=450w and Tempo Zone of 340w - 405w. By increasing your FTP you have created a higher Tempo Zone which is generally where your CP150 will be valued. Obviously it would be ideal to train your CP150 so that you are able to sustain a good % at the upper end of Tempo Zone without hitting your FTP because as we know FTP is a 60minute figure and a 70.3 Bike Split is x2 + the duration of your FTP can be sustained.

 

I think that made sense and is what Fluro is getting at...?

 

..... Here in Perth we have probably Australia’s fastest age group biker, even outsplit Sindabelle one year in IMNZ. He is also knocking off some of Jack Bobridge 20km ATTA race TT records.

 

.... Do you feel 4-6 weeks is long enough? I’m finding it takes 4-6 weeks to just get the athlete into a state of readiness (mental and physical) in order to handle those sorts to specific loads. For example, you just can’t jump into doing 2 x 20min @ FTP it takes a good 4-6 weeks to build up to the overload necessary to start making the adaptations?

 

..I generally use 8-12 weeks blocks, 4-6 weeks to prepare the athlete for the overload

 

Fluro - Can you find out what his secret is... :lol: I also find from experience with only having power for the past 6 weeks that i am really capable to start ramping up my FTP intervals. I found that I really needed to drop my figures in recovery to be able to produce another quality interval, where as now i can complete interval 1, hold decent figures in recovery and complete quality following intervals.

 

Also another question is how would you train your CP150.. Include it in the middle of a long ride every week or complete a 100km TT every say 2 weeks?

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Guest C.C
I said the most productive training session, that is, greatest increase in fitness over the shortest period of time. Chris Carmichael's book "Training for time crunched cyclists" relies on this kind of session - or slight variations to it - heavily.

 

As I noted in the same sentence, and the later post, speed endurance is highly stressful and "...this training type is high stress and has a rapid effect on fitness to the effect that it will bring an athlete to a peak quickly, which is not always desirable during this block."

 

I thought the initial post was based around improving FTP and 90km performance? I'm not doubting you get fast results from SE training but for what distance... 20k perhaps, 3000 - 4000m ind pursuit? From my experience it does precious little for 90k TT performance.

Edited by C.C

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I thought the initial post was based around improving FTP and 90km performance? I'm not doubting you get fast results from SE training but for what distance... 20k perhaps, 3000 - 4000m ind pursuit? From my experience it does precious little for 90k TT performance.

 

G'day C.C,

 

Genuine question....do you think it has the ability to raise your FTP as a % of V02max?

 

There are guys out there that can race for long periods of time at really high % of their V02

 

Wasn't De Castella a runner with a low V02 but could run a whole marathon at a higher than normal % of V02 than most?

 

fluro

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Good to see your thoughts CEM. I do agree on a few things here which i will state in a moment but also one thing that i fail to understand is;

 

If you train to FTP Once or Twice a week and can improve your figures by say 20w, then is this not allowing you to further train you CP150 at a higher level, in which it relates to what your basic approach is... get the power, work the endurance?

 

E.g. you have a whopping FTP of 400w (mmm that would make me go quick!) which means your Tempo range is 75-90% of that FTP Figure so in this case it would be 300w - 360w. Now because your an animal in training you magically increase you FTP by 50w, making it now an FTP=450w and Tempo Zone of 340w - 405w. By increasing your FTP you have created a higher Tempo Zone which is generally where your CP150 will be valued. Obviously it would be ideal to train your CP150 so that you are able to sustain a good % at the upper end of Tempo Zone without hitting your FTP because as we know FTP is a 60minute figure and a 70.3 Bike Split is x2 + the duration of your FTP can be sustained.

Yes, you're right but in order to increase your FTP you need to have the capacity to increase your FTP. That is, using your example of 400w FTP, if your max aerobic capacity (VO2 max) is at 440w, then your FTP is 91% of VO2 max, and increasing your FTP further is going to be very, very hard.

 

Thus you need to develop the "ceiling" of your VO2 max in order to have "room" for your FTP to raise. In fact, if your FTP remains at 91% of VO2 max and your VO2 max increases then so will your FTP without even focusing on FTP development.

 

What I'm saying is that increasing FTP does not occur in independent of other fitness aspects, and you need to look at all components of fitness in developing a plan to improve your performance...along with the individual characteristics/profile of the athlete.

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I thought the initial post was based around improving FTP and 90km performance? I'm not doubting you get fast results from SE training but for what distance... 20k perhaps, 3000 - 4000m ind pursuit? From my experience it does precious little for 90k TT performance.

I agree with you to an extent. The very process of developing speed endurance will also develop endurance as a side-effect, but not specifically, which I think is the point you are making. Both of us are correct in the context/intent we were making our statements.

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Yes, you're right but in order to increase your FTP you need to have the capacity to increase your FTP. That is, using your example of 400w FTP, if your max aerobic capacity (VO2 max) is at 440w, then your FTP is 91% of VO2 max, and increasing your FTP further is going to be very, very hard.

 

Thus you need to develop the "ceiling" of your VO2 max in order to have "room" for your FTP to raise. In fact, if your FTP remains at 91% of VO2 max and your VO2 max increases then so will your FTP without even focusing on FTP development.

 

What I'm saying is that increasing FTP does not occur in independent of other fitness aspects, and you need to look at all components of fitness in developing a plan to improve your performance...along with the individual characteristics/profile of the athlete.

 

Interesting,

 

I thought your V02max is somewhat genetic and not really that trainable(ie couple of % here and there), whereas an athlete does have the ability to move their FTP up as a % of their V02... as hard as it is to do so?

 

 

 

fluro

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I was to understand that VO2 max uper limit like your max HR was not trainable but you are not always operating at your max VO2 max and need to open up to its potential.

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Guest C.C
G'day C.C,

 

Genuine question....do you think it has the ability to raise your FTP as a % of V02max?

 

There are guys out there that can race for long periods of time at really high % of their V02

 

Wasn't De Castella a runner with a low V02 but could run a whole marathon at a higher than normal % of V02 than most?

 

fluro

 

Not sure about Deek; however I believe raising the % of V02 max you can sustain is one of the primary reasons for threshold training. I'm not a power guru (I have a power meter but I just like to see the numbers) but going back to the good ol' days when training zones were expressed as % of Max Heart rate, the threshold zone, or zone 4-5a etc was 85-93%MHR. after a lay-off, rest period or for an athlete with limited history their threshold HR would be closer to the 85% end which would hopefully be pushed toward the higher end of the scale with a program including reasonable amounts of threshold training. I don't think the basic theory has changed that much has it?

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Wow, this is quality.

 

What if the question was re-phrased a little. What provides most bang for the buck (training time) for a HIM bike split: FTP training or endurance training? Obviously there's some crossover (i.e. endurance training will to some extent increase your FTP and FTP training will to some extent increase your endurance) between the two but is it easier to raise the percentage of FTP you can hold for the bike or to raise the FTP and keep the percentage of FTP the same?

 

Perhaps a combination? 3hr z2/3 ride + 2 x FTP per week?

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Not sure about Deek; however I believe raising the % of V02 max you can sustain is one of the primary reasons for threshold training. I'm not a power guru (I have a power meter but I just like to see the numbers) but going back to the good ol' days when training zones were expressed as % of Max Heart rate, the threshold zone, or zone 4-5a etc was 85-93%MHR. after a lay-off, rest period or for an athlete with limited history their threshold HR would be closer to the 85% end which would hopefully be pushed toward the higher end of the scale with a program including reasonable amounts of threshold training. I don't think the basic theory has changed that much has it?

Why HR-based training is out-of-date

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I'm about to have a mental breakdown not being able to do anything for the next 2 weeks other than be a keyboard nazi. :lol:

 

 

Spend 6 weeks building up to being able to execute at least 3 x FT's each week

 

wk1: 6 x 4min @ 100% of FTP, 2min RI

wk2: 3 x 8min @ 95-100% of FTP, 3min RI

wk3: 3 x 10min @ 100% of FTP, 3min RI

wk4: 2 x 15min @ 95-100% of FTP, 5min RI

wk5: 3 x 15min @ 100% of FTP, 3min RI

wk6: 2 x 20min @ 95-100% of FTP, 2min RI **This is your starting point**

 

Do these 3 days a week, but mix up the terrain (flat, rolling, hill repeats, out and backs, etc). 2 days on, 1 day off, 1 day on, 1 day off,repeat..........

 

i have no idea what my FTP is, but would find the above hard to do on the road, would have to do it on windtrainer to hold the levels of effort consistent I think?

 

my windtrainer sessions say things like "8x2 min efforts at 100+rpm and 95-98% effort, 2 min recoveries"

 

to be honest, i'm not sure what 95-98% effort is, but i take it to a level where i can just complete the interval, and back up to do 8 of them. My HR guides me to what is sustainable :lol:

 

but the HR i can sustain moves around a bit (eg. some days i can get it to 166-8, others the 150's are the limit), so 'feel' comes into it a lot.

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Wow, this is quality.

 

What if the question was re-phrased a little. What provides most bang for the buck (training time) for a HIM bike split: FTP training or endurance training? Obviously there's some crossover (i.e. endurance training will to some extent increase your FTP and FTP training will to some extent increase your endurance) between the two but is it easier to raise the percentage of FTP you can hold for the bike or to raise the FTP and keep the percentage of FTP the same?

 

Perhaps a combination? 3hr z2/3 ride + 2 x FTP per week?

These sessions are not mutually exclusive. However an FTP session will develop your endurance more than an endurance session will develop your FTP...so there is your answer.

 

I'll say it again, while different sessions will have a different emphasis in what they're aiming to develop, there will always be carry-over benefits across your whole fitness spectrum.

 

BTW...personally I'm not into z2/3, etc, and never have been. To me they're a carry-over from HR-based programs.

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Perhaps a combination? 3hr z2/3 ride + 2 x FTP per week?

 

That's close to an 'endurance nation' bike week. Their philosophy is to crank FTP as high as possible then move to race specific and faster. The long rides include chunks at Coggan L3/4.

 

FTP IS endurance training. It's the pace/power you can hold for one hour. Of course the more specific you make the test to the target event then the better predictor it will be. But who does a simulated HIM/IM in training (at 100% effort)- the recovery cost is too much. So we use predictors from other (more tolerable) tests done while training/ as part of training. Like AP's 100km TT's. Good training, learn pacing/nutrition, etc. and give an indication of potential performance at other distances.

 

As to trainability of VO2 max. It varies a lot from person to person. Some start high, but training does stuff all extra. Others can add 50%+ with the right training. Most will gain 15-25% coming off the couch. Once you are training regularly then most of the increase will be trained- but not all, nor how long you can hold VO2max (see Veronique Billat's work).

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I don't disagree. too many variables etc. The basic principle be it for power, PE etc is the same though: train at or close to threshold and the % of VO2 max you can sustain should improve along with FTP.

 

HR training maybe out of favour but threshold HR will usually fall somewhere between 85-93%max.

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HR training maybe out of favour but threshold HR will usually fall somewhere between 85-93%max.

 

interesting, i've been wondering about that correlation. my max HR was assessed at about 185, which would put my threshold at 157-172, which is what it gets to in windtrainer intervals (152-168 generally) . In HIMs i go around at 148-150, in sprints 160-165, at the top of MFD in a race i saw 178 once (stoopid) :lol:

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G'day C.C,

 

Genuine question....do you think it has the ability to raise your FTP as a % of V02max?

 

There are guys out there that can race for long periods of time at really high % of their V02

 

Wasn't De Castella a runner with a low V02 but could run a whole marathon at a higher than normal % of V02 than most?

 

fluro

 

You may be right, but also there is Derek Clayton - Vo2 of around 68-69 & a 2.08 marathoner.

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for a 90k steady state TT I Totally disagree! longer Intervals (6 mins +) at slightly below to slightly above your threshold/ FTP is more productive. Speed endurance is great if you are training for pursuits, road races, crits but done incorrectly and for too long will bury you!

 

I tend to lean more in this direction than all the figures on some of those other posts :lol:

 

It's all looking a bit too complicated for a lot on here :D

 

I reckon there'd be a few glazed eyeballs in the audience right now :D

 

Maybe it's time for a coffee break and stretch the legs before we go on :lol:

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For those that dont use power dont give up :lol: all this stuff they are talking about is not different to how I train without power.. the most important thing i do is JFT... when I JFT i design my intervals paced on perceived effort/ HR and do very similar intervals as described above.. different efforts durations recoveries all around the magic threshold. nothing easy.. some up hill and some around the local Crit Track as I believe it is very important to complete the set 100% without a red light

 

design your intervals to suit the race and course your trying to specialize in.

 

dont let this stuff blow your mind.. you dont need a power meter to improve your cycling..

get a good structure and JFT is number 1.. you can do many creative intervals without a power meter

 

i dont measure my FTP, I dont care what it is either, it changes every week.

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I feel like I should have my mouth washed out with soap, I AGREE WITH KOKOMO :lol:

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For those that dont use power dont give up :lol: all this stuff they are talking about is not different to how I train without power.. the most important thing i do is JFT... when I JFT i design my intervals paced on perceived effort/ HR and do very similar intervals as described above.. different efforts durations recoveries all around the magic threshold. nothing easy.. some up hill and some around the local Crit Track as I believe it is very important to complete the set 100% without a red light

 

design your intervals to suit the race and course your trying to specialize in.

 

dont let this stuff blow your mind.. you dont need a power meter to improve your cycling..

get a good structure and JFT is number 1.. you can do many creative intervals without a power meter

 

i dont measure my FTP, I dont care what it is either, it changes every week.

 

Well said - common sense and reminds us that it isn't as complicated as many would have us believe

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That is all wel and good but the fact of the matter is that there ARE ways to improve your cycling performance using a power meter. Saying JFT might sound bad arse but it is keeping your head in the sand with respect to physiological response that can be fairly accurately targeted.

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Two cyclists. Send them both off for one year. They then return having the exact same FTP. One of them never rode longer than 60 minutes in one session in the year but the other one had a weekly 180km ride. The next day, send them off for a 180km TT. Who would win?

Well presumably they would have somewhat different chronic training loads as a result of the significantly different volume of riding, so you would naturally expect one to be better prepared for such a long ride.

 

That tells us nothing new.

 

Pithy Power Proverb:

"FTP = how fast you can go. CTL = how long you can go fast." - Rick Murphy

 

However, if you don't have a lot of time to spare, then the most important thing you can do is train in such a manner to maximally increase your FTP as that will also bring up long range power significantly.

Edited by Alex Simmons

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I've seen a lot of people waste a lot of time by JFT - and I'm a huge fan of high volume training.

 

Optimum and adequate are two different things.

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I just want to make clear when i said JTF.. id ont mean just go pedal..

 

JFTWS

 

the WS With Structure

 

you do not need a power meter to train with strucutre

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you do not need a power meter to train with strucutre

 

Nope, but it does seem to be a very useful tool for defining a good structure for a given rider.

 

Of course there are other ways of doing it, and the more background you have in a given sport the more likely it is that you can do it on 'feel' or knowing what you need etc., but, for numpties like me, reading TARWAPM, doing the tests to see my weaknesses and designing a basic program to address those weaknesses will produce much faster gains than adopting a hit and miss approach based on what I think I need. It's also v. useful for ensuring you are actually doing what you're supposed to be doing while out on the road and not just relying on HR or something.

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the OP asked, what the best way to train to perform better for a 70.3..

 

you can use a power meter all you want to structure a plan..

my point is without a power meter you can easialy design a equally good program that will improve performance over 90k's

 

i would be a no better or worse cyclist with or without a power meter..

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the OP asked, what the best way to train to perform better for a 70.3..

 

you can use a power meter all you want to structure a plan..

my point is without a power meter you can easialy design a equally good program that will improve performance over 90k's

 

i would be a no better or worse cyclist with or without a power meter..

 

No doubt - There are certainly other methods to design structured programs without a power meter. HR Guidelines are fading out but can still certainly be used if done correctly e.g. actually doing a Max HR Test to determine YOUR zones, rather than the 220-Age theory.. its just to much of an estimate. The thing is with a power meter that makes it so useful is that it gives you instant feedback while riding and the amount of collected data than can effectively be used is amazing and ever evolving. While putting one on your bike doesn't make you a better cyclist, learning how to properly and effectively use it as a training tool is irreplaceable by other methods of training and can fast track your ability substantially..

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