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Swimming with a band (tether in Melbourne :lol:)

Nah, they're called bands here also, except that we're tougher and tie a brick to them!!! :lol:

 

Good thread.

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Guest Rentakill
but we got shysters from evry where charging copious ammounts of money for info , that is down right scandelous , i am sure muffin man can , confirm , but american age groupers fall for it ,

 

I couldnt be bothered reading through all the illiterate ranting, but I think Matt is quoting Brett Sutton, you could paraphrase the above with Australian age groupers as well.

 

My thoughts.... which I will preface with the fact I am one of the lucky ones that could swim without trying too hard...

 

Matt (MJK not Parky) is a good athlete didnt you do 9.20 ish up at Port this year mate? with kids life and job?; (hey Parky no offence mate, you are a good athlete too!)

 

Parky wasnt much chop as a swimmer and did the work and realised a 52xx swim is possible which was an amazing and very impressive achievement; which demonstrates the committment of Parky and the coaching abilities of the coach@;

 

Classic form often means four fifths of f-k all in open water swimming and kicking is a waste of time unless it is to kick someone in the head to get them off your feet;

 

Paddles work, and not cruising along with them actually doing efforts with them;

 

If all you hour plus swimmers got out ten mintues quicker you migth find that lofty goal of a 9.30 ish time isnt all that lofty at all as you could ride legally and still go much much faster in a big group.

 

I might also add extra curricular activities such as surfing do help your swimming, havent been swimming at all but have started surfing a lot more again since my op and jumped in and did a set yesterday (after being humiliated at the 000 biathlon a few weeks ago) and surprised myself how much quicker I was just from surfing and the strength it gives you.

Edited by Rentakill

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Guest Animal

+ 1 for band and brick - or just harden up and grow a forest on your legs like an Animal :lol::), causes enough drag to make you really stong! :lol::)

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I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be repeating what's here however I can describe my experience.

 

I am an OK swimmer (0:53) at Port but a below average cyclist and atrocius runner (0:55 for 10km if I push myself, AND, not tacked onto the back of an oly tri)

 

I have always swum in squads and I find my swimming improves by doing at least 2 x 1.5hr sessions a week. Oh, and get off the piss :-)

 

The key to improving your swimming is 200m repetitions whilst under the pump. 400m reps are very good too but if you want to improve quickly for a race, smash out the 200 sets. Do 8 or 10 in a set at least weekly.

 

I am 43 and started doing tri last year. I had zeeeeeero bike and run base. Had a go at Port and made it but my running is abysmal, so I am going to apply the same theory to running as swimming:

* I need to do more of, and vary the intensity of, my runs

* do hills

* do fartleks

* do fast 5k and slow 20k runs, and slow 5k and faster 10k runs

* mostly, run more and push myself, or get pushed by other, faster runners, or get in a run squad

 

I think that if I run train at the same distances at the same speeds my running will not improve - I know this for fact from swimming so I can't see why it would be different.

 

So, original poster: get into a squad, mix it up and do 200 reps!!

 

(Edit for speling erors)

Edited by nelso

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Classic form often means four fifths of f-k all in open water swimming and kicking is a waste of time unless it is to kick someone in the head to get them off your feet;

 

I hate it when people kick in the swim with massive enormous feet. Maybe that's coz one such swimmer broke my finger at Port IM last year!!!! :D Oh my god that hurt! Have any of you guys ever tried swimming with goggles and tears??? :lol:

 

:lol:

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I couldnt be bothered reading through all the illiterate ranting, but I think Matt is quoting Brett Sutton, you could paraphrase the above with Australian age groupers as well.

 

My thoughts.... which I will preface with the fact I am one of the lucky ones that could swim without trying too hard...

 

Matt (MJK not Parky) is a good athlete didnt you do 9.20 ish up at Port this year mate? with kids life and job?; (hey Parky no offence mate, you are a good athlete too!)

 

Parky wasnt much chop as a swimmer and did the work and realised a 52xx swim is possible which was an amazing and very impressive achievement; which demonstrates the committment of Parky and the coaching abilities of the coach@;

 

Classic form often means four fifths of f-k all in open water swimming and kicking is a waste of time unless it is to kick someone in the head to get them off your feet;

 

Paddles work, and not cruising along with them actually doing efforts with them;

 

If all you hour plus swimmers got out ten mintues quicker you migth find that lofty goal of a 9.30 ish time isnt all that lofty at all as you could ride legally and still go much much faster in a big group.

 

I might also add extra curricular activities such as surfing do help your swimming, havent been swimming at all but have started surfing a lot more again since my op and jumped in and did a set yesterday (after being humiliated at the 000 biathlon a few weeks ago) and surprised myself how much quicker I was just from surfing and the strength it gives you.

 

 

Yes that is Sutto speak...if you can understand his English. :-)

 

I totally agree with Jabbs and apart from using the above method myself have seen tonnes of supporting evidence. I reiterate that it is not the ONLY way, though.

 

I used to train alot with Grant Giles back in the day, trained next to each other in the same pool, he NEVER swam without a buoy (he would sink if he did!) and used to belt pad/buoy sets left right and centre, made his athletes do the same. If he was not using the buoy then he was in the open water with the full wettie on a few time prior to a big race. At the time I thought that he was taking the soft option. I'm sure I was easily faster than him in the pool without equipment, actually I think at the time Gilesy would have been flat out breaking 5:00 for 400m short course without a wetsuit which is not fast by pro standards. But stuffed if I got with 2-mins of him on IM race day once he had that QR suit on. He cained me every race in the rubber. Wetsuit swimming is a different animal.

 

Which brings me to another point, and related to Jabb's 'don't kick' quote. FYI Jabbs, Monty (Mark Montgomery) in the US, a terrific wettie swimmer (not so in the pool) wrote a great piece on this once in agreement.

 

I read Emma Snowsill saying once you want to get a wettie that has as thick legs as possible, aka the next to 5mm all over QR suits that we used to have (Paul O'Brien smoked everyone in one, then again he could wear anything and do same), Gilesy wore one (he even bought an extra one to keep in storage in case they stopped making them I guess). I still wear mine from 1997 with 4325 wettie glue patches on it, it looks ridiculous and people laugh at me and think I'm a poor man. Same deal for the old 'lightfoot' full suits. Thick as hell, but faster cause the legs are up and in position already and hence no need to kick (much). Gilesy kicked bugger all, same for wetsuit freak Spot Anderson. I'm looking at a new suit soon but to me the entry level one's might be more appealing with the focus on buoyancy versus flexibility.

 

Remember Guy Wilding, Jabbs? Crikey, he was a deadset brick, couldn't swim to save himself. But put him in the 5mm Wing wetsuit and he wasn't too far behind. Up-tempo stroke and strong, chopping in a bit short like a surf stroke aka a few of the Shire buoys I think of over the years (Rick Pallister, Chris Southwell, Jase Harper, Will Carroll)

 

As for the surfing helping, 100% agree, I used to surf alot, and Mitch Dean, Spot, Gilesy are/were all good surfers. When I stopped surfing my swim fell away. My missus never swam her whole life except if her leg-rope broke but she grew up in the US Scholastic surfing system. After just 12 months of swimming she was under the hour at Ironman and reckons it's a very low energy cost even for her, just rolls the arms over and goes with the moving water. I don't think she is even capable of going anaerobic but dang strong with that rubber on. She could not even make a set of 10 x 100m on a 1:40 send off in the pool without equipment!

 

It's a topic for another discussion but yes Jabbs 9:19 at IM this year and a great race year for me in general off my lowest volumes ever the last 18 months. Like most of us I was working lots, not sleeping enough and busy with three young sons. I managed one 15 hour 'peak' week in the last 6 weeks and just two rides over 3 hours. But if short on time and/or not willing/able to give your life over to traditional 'Ironman Training' (that's me :-)) then your only option is to 'punch harder' in those reduced training hours to get your loading and concern yourself with being really, really FIT in my view. Shouldn't have said any of this cause now I'm going to get the 'he's got heaps of base' line. :-). My classic 10-12hrs a week I roll out 85% of the year is loaded with tempo which, it might shock people, is still 'aerobic'. Anyway, this is totally off topic and should be posted in another section but might be of 'mental' hope to some of the folks that are getting put off by the mega ironman training volume threads.

 

Mine is also not the BEST way. Just a great way to make the most of a compromised situation, I believe, or a situation that necessitates a bit more balance. Of course, there is a price. :-) As usual, though, if you don't pace yourself in the race then nothing will save you. That's one of the hardest things to teach.

 

In regards to swimming...I swim 97% of my 10K a week with the buoy/paddles(band). I would not break 1:15 for 100m or 5:20 for 400m flat-out without equipment anymore. The swim was obviously short at IMOz but I think my 49-something swim at Ironman in the rubber might outperform folks with much better pool times than me. And no, I don't swim hard in the race. On my training volume, I can't afford to. :-)

 

Since I focused more on training this way I started to like racing in a wetsuit instead of hating it. My arms used to fall off in the full suit. No longer.

 

Hope there's a thing or two for someone in here that might help.

 

Matt

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Yes that is Sutto speak...if you can understand his English. :-)

 

I totally agree with Jabbs and apart from using the above method myself have seen tonnes of supporting evidence. I reiterate that it is not the ONLY way, though.

 

I used to train alot with Grant Giles back in the day, trained next to each other in the same pool, he NEVER swam without a buoy (he would sink if he did!) and used to belt pad/buoy sets left right and centre, made his athletes do the same. If he was not using the buoy then he was in the open water with the full wettie on a few time prior to a big race. At the time I thought that he was taking the soft option. I'm sure I was easily faster than him in the pool without equipment, actually I think at the time Gilesy would have been flat out breaking 5:00 for 400m short course without a wetsuit which is not fast by pro standards. But stuffed if I got with 2-mins of him on IM race day once he had that QR suit on. He cained me every race in the rubber. Wetsuit swimming is a different animal.

 

Which brings me to another point, and related to Jabb's 'don't kick' quote. FYI Jabbs, Monty (Mark Montgomery) in the US, a terrific wettie swimmer (not so in the pool) wrote a great piece on this once in agreement.

 

I read Emma Snowsill saying once you want to get a wettie that has as thick legs as possible, aka the next to 5mm all over QR suits that we used to have (Paul O'Brien smoked everyone in one, then again he could wear anything and do same), Gilesy wore one (he even bought an extra one to keep in storage in case they stopped making them I guess). I still wear mine from 1997 with 4325 wettie glue patches on it, it looks ridiculous and people laugh at me and think I'm a poor man. Same deal for the old 'lightfoot' full suits. Thick as hell, but faster cause the legs are up and in position already and hence no need to kick (much). Gilesy kicked bugger all, same for wetsuit freak Spot Anderson. I'm looking at a new suit soon but to me the entry level one's might be more appealing with the focus on buoyancy versus flexibility.

 

Remember Guy Wilding, Jabbs? Crikey, he was a deadset brick, couldn't swim to save himself. But put him in the 5mm Wing wetsuit and he wasn't too far behind. Up-tempo stroke and strong, chopping in a bit short like a surf stroke aka a few of the Shire buoys I think of over the years (Rick Pallister, Chris Southwell, Jase Harper, Will Carroll)

 

As for the surfing helping, 100% agree, I used to surf alot, and Mitch Dean, Spot, Gilesy are/were all good surfers. When I stopped surfing my swim fell away. My missus never swam her whole life except if her leg-rope broke but she grew up in the US Scholastic surfing system. After just 12 months of swimming she was under the hour at Ironman and reckons it's a very low energy cost even for her, just rolls the arms over and goes with the moving water. I don't think she is even capable of going anaerobic but dang strong with that rubber on. She could not even make a set of 10 x 100m on a 1:40 send off in the pool without equipment!

 

It's a topic for another discussion but yes Jabbs 9:19 at IM this year and a great race year for me in general off my lowest volumes ever the last 18 months. Like most of us I was working lots, not sleeping enough and busy with three young sons. I managed one 15 hour 'peak' week in the last 6 weeks and just two rides over 3 hours. But if short on time and/or not willing/able to give your life over to traditional 'Ironman Training' (that's me :-)) then your only option is to 'punch harder' in those reduced training hours to get your loading and concern yourself with being really, really FIT in my view. Shouldn't have said any of this cause now I'm going to get the 'he's got heaps of base' line. :-). My classic 10-12hrs a week I roll out 85% of the year is loaded with tempo which, it might shock people, is still 'aerobic'. Anyway, this is totally off topic and should be posted in another section but might be of 'mental' hope to some of the folks that are getting put off by the mega ironman training volume threads.

 

Mine is also not the BEST way. Just a great way to make the most of a compromised situation, I believe, or a situation that necessitates a bit more balance. Of course, there is a price. :-) As usual, though, if you don't pace yourself in the race then nothing will save you. That's one of the hardest things to teach.

 

In regards to swimming...I swim 97% of my 10K a week with the buoy/paddles(band). I would not break 1:15 for 100m or 5:20 for 400m flat-out without equipment anymore. The swim was obviously short at IMOz but I think my 49-something swim at Ironman in the rubber might outperform folks with much better pool times than me. And no, I don't swim hard in the race. On my training volume, I can't afford to. :-)

 

Since I focused more on training this way I started to like racing in a wetsuit instead of hating it. My arms used to fall off in the full suit. No longer.

 

Hope there's a thing or two for someone in here that might help.

 

Matt

What happens when there is no wet suit, Kona

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I might add that Matt is over 40 :lol:

 

One of the things Matt has been really good at over the twenty plus years I have known him is his ability to pace himself. Always to perfection.

 

You also take that on board with your intelligent training paces.

 

You are dead right about wetsuit swimming being a different animal. You need to learn how to swim fast in a wetsuit. It takes time and practice.

 

Spot Anderson and I race each other all year and often have the fastest times for the swim overall. The blokes we match or beat would absolutely towel us in the pool. The combination of working together ( I take the first line to the first can flat out, he takes over and navigates us in without goggles), extensive open water experience and wetsuit swimming makes up the gap in pure swimming performance.

 

Really enjoyed your post Matt. Love to read more of your stuff if you get some time mate :lol:

Edited by Coach@triathlon

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Thanks Pete. Great advice and with some evidence (videos) and cred (results) to back it up.

 

If anyone can beat PJ out of the water I will listen to their advice too.

 

Any takers?

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Thanks Pete. Great advice and with some evidence (videos) and cred (results) to back it up.

 

If anyone can beat PJ out of the water I will listen to their advice too.

 

Any takers?

 

great attitude :lol:

 

I suppose you wouldn't listen to Denis Cottrell either because you can probably swim faster than him?

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You let your spot roll down! haha

 

Yeh mate, I did. :-)

 

Better ways to allocate my capital.

 

Been there, done that, blown up badly. Larfs.

 

I don't dream about Kona. They are still plugging the road after my experience there.

 

Hope the guy that got my roll down enjoys himself, sincerely.

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Yeh mate, I did. :-)

 

Better ways to allocate my capital.

 

Been there, done that, blown up badly. Larfs.

 

I don't dream about Kona. They are still plugging the road after my experience there.

 

Hope the guy that got my roll down enjoys himself, sincerely.

 

I'm sure there's someone really happy with your decision!

 

Out of interest, what changes would you make to your program (if any) if the plan was kona?

 

Cheers

 

Conor

Edited by conor

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I might add that Matt is over 40 :lol:

 

One of the things Matt has been really good at over the twenty plus years I have known him is his ability to pace himself. Always to perfection.

 

You also take that on board with your intelligent training paces.

 

You are dead right about wetsuit swimming being a different animal. You need to learn how to swim fast in a wetsuit. It takes time and practice.

 

Spot Anderson and I race each other all year and often have the fastest times for the swim overall. The blokes we match or beat would absolutely towel us in the pool. The combination of working together ( I take the first line to the first can flat out, he takes over and navigates us in without goggles), extensive open water experience and wetsuit swimming makes up the gap in pure swimming performance.

 

Really enjoyed your post Matt. Love to read more of your stuff if you get some time mate :lol:

 

Argh, I'm having too many memories now with Jabbs and Mick in the house. I do wish Chris Southwell would chat more, though. Respect 101 for that dude, too!

 

The old Shire boys take a tongue in cheek spray from people in here from time to time but dang if they weren't my idols as I grew up in tri's. Goes to show how late I must have been hitting puberty when Mick is only a couple of years older than me now (and obviously then, too) but back in the day I always thought he was alot older. Winning big-time races like Royal National Park from age 19. Like many of that era I guess, going quick and racing pro at a real young age. Maybe that's why our bodies are now as tight as a camel's arsehole? :-)

 

Great info on your's/Spot's swim strategy. My dad's last words before each race were "Go find Spot, get on his drag". I can see why you take him out and then he comes thru'. I found Spot at Husky this year, we started to the side and I had my head near two feet up his back-side thinking, "ok, this is insane, it's stupid easy, the bunch on the right is putting time on us, I should get out of here real soon and make a move or it's all over". Absolutely NO sprint off the startline, just cruisey as. No anaerobia. Sure enough, we soon stopped losing ground and Spot just INCREASED the pace and thanks for coming we were in a perfect position with the main players who were sucking wind. The reason I loved Spot's drag over the years was 'cause.....he didn't kick. His drag was like a vortex.

 

I had some more memories come back in the last hour re; pad/buoy(band) work....

 

Back in the day when the Grand Prix races were in town each year, I'd see Sutto's squad (again, love or hate B.S.,the discussion is 'training') members rock up in the final week before the race and they would use Manly Pool, where I swim.

 

Loretta Harrop, Andrew Johns, Greg Bennett.....without fail, had a buoy between their legs the whole session, often with paddles, too (Loretta seemingly always with the latter). 100's galore, tonnes and tonnes of them, over and over at a high aerobic effort (not threshold, how else can you do a big set like 60x on something like 1:20/1:25 send off (long course). I'd slide in on the back of the stars and suck toes, big time and bail half-way when I had to get back to work.

 

Chappo I saw a couple of times as well...training solo. A polite quick 'hi' to me even though I don't think he knew me. Then same deal..massive set of 100's, Chappo would have the buoy, maybe not the paddles if I recall correctly but always the buoy, and I think a band. Real short rest again, quick catch of the breathe and go. Was always something stupid like a 1:20 send off for Trent, but he was obviously not red-lining it, just a moderately hard, tempo effort for a long time with I'd suggest the most value coming from the last 2K when he and this crew are maintaining that effort 'on tired arms' THIS is when the adaptations happens and I bet how Chappo trains up his PISS crew physically and mentally?

 

And Jan Rehula. Anyone remember him? Saw him at the pool alot back around '98-2000 and happily lobbed into some of his sessions, also at Manly Pool, the big dog was living there.

 

Sessions again were nearly all the same. Massive set of 100's, short rest, tempo (GREY ZONE!! Fark me, don't train there it doesn't work!! ;-) ).

 

But in the last 1K or so big Jan would say,"Ok, Matchew...now we do some splints". So he starts smashing something like 15m fast! (buoyed/padded up)/20m slow/15m fast! or 25's, stopping in the middle of the pool. Again, at the end, not the beginning of the session, forcing the body to work hard on tired arms, forcing the recruitment of some deep muscle fibres that otherwise wouldn't be touched on or something like that (larfs).

 

I have had some great discussions the last couple of weeks with a nice fella named Kristian Manietta. We never met until recently but it was similar topics we spoke on and particularly in regards to my own training and how I've been able to seemingly race half decent over the last 18 months on what to most folks is seemingly bugger all volume.

 

Especially as AG athletes, we have to find ways to make sweet, performance giving adaptations from less. I always read this stuff about aerobic 'base'. I think many AG'ers need to understand that 'aerobic' goes alot higher up the VO2 max curve than 70%!

 

I'll argue with you that the work from which the top pro's are getting their bang for the buck is not all the filler shit they do around their key sessions, it's the key 'harder aerobic' sessions themselves. Aka Crowie's 10 x 1 mile at 6:00>>5:30/mile reps on a 6:30 send off. Chappo's (NOT a pro anymore. He works big-time! could do with some kids,though) big TT's at the end of his long rides and long swim sets. Or fartlek runs on tired legs. I'd hazard a guess that these PISS boys are doing alot of their pushing on tired bodies. So they're too fatigued to totally be red-lining their effort, and instead punching out a high quality 'aerobic' effort on their tired legs. Adaptations 101, and mental farking hardening!!

 

And that makes me digress again...that term 'high aerobic' that everyone uses per the great Kiwi run coach Arthur Lydiard. So many people make the assumption that he was talking about 'threshold'/1-hr TT pace('AT' pace) training

 

However, a huge majority of Lydiard's training (100miles a week) was targeted at a pace they could back up day after day.

 

The Lydiard trained runners who ran around 2:10 marathons were hitting a core pace on the flats in training of about 3:15-3:20 per km. Yet the 'AT' requirement for that sort of marathon runner would be about 2:55-2:57/km.

 

I remember talking to a little known guy called Scott Molina about this years back, and he said the same thing.

 

That's a high aerobic/sub-threshold/mod-hard/tempo/close to half IM/grey zone type effort they were hitting.

 

Think I have gone off track again. :-) Getting too, anal.

 

Just go training, don't think 'too' much like I used to, and understand if you want a result you gotta sometimes punch it a bit when you least think you should.

Edited by MJK

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I had some more memories come back in the last hour re; pad/buoy(band) work....

 

Back in the day when the Grand Prix races were in town each year, I'd see Sutto's squad (again, love or hate B.S.,the discussion is 'training') members rock up in the final week before the race and they would use Manly Pool, where I swim.

 

Loretta Harrop, Andrew Johns, Greg Bennett.....without fail, had a buoy between their legs the whole session, often with paddles, too (Loretta seemingly always with the latter). 100's galore, tonnes and tonnes of them, over and over at a high aerobic effort (not threshold, how else can you do a big set like 60x on something like 1:20/1:25 send off (long course). I'd slide in on the back of the stars and suck toes, big time and bail half-way when I had to get back to work.

 

Chappo I saw a couple of times as well...training solo. A polite quick 'hi' to me even though I don't think he knew me. Then same deal..massive set of 100's, Chappo would have the buoy, maybe not the paddles if I recall correctly but always the buoy, and I think a band. Real short rest again, quick catch of the breathe and go. Was always something stupid like a 1:20 send off for Trent, but he was obviously not red-lining it, just a moderately hard, tempo effort for a long time with I'd suggest the most value coming from the last 2K when he and this crew are maintaining that effort 'on tired arms' THIS is when the adaptations happens and I bet how Chappo trains up his PISS crew physically and mentally?

 

And Jan Rehula. Anyone remember him? Saw him at the pool alot back around '98-2000 and happily lobbed into some of his sessions, also at Manly Pool, the big dog was living there.

 

Sessions again were nearly all the same. Massive set of 100's, short rest, tempo (GREY ZONE!! Fark me, don't train there it doesn't work!! ;-) ).

 

But in the last 1K or so big Jan would say,"Ok, Matchew...now we do some splints". So he starts smashing something like 15m fast! (buoyed/padded up)/20m slow/15m fast! or 25's, stopping in the middle of the pool. Again, at the end, not the beginning of the session, forcing the body to work hard on tired arms, forcing the recruitment of some deep muscle fibres that otherwise wouldn't be touched on or something like that (larfs).

 

I have had some great discussions the last couple of weeks with a nice fella named Kristian Manietta. We never met until recently but it was similar topics we spoke on and particularly in regards to my own training and how I've been able to seemingly race half decent over the last 18 months on what to most folks is seemingly bugger all volume.

 

Especially as AG athletes, we have to find ways to make sweet, performance giving adaptations from less. I always read this stuff about aerobic 'base'. I think many AG'ers need to understand that 'aerobic' goes alot higher up the VO2 max curve than 70%!

 

I'll argue with you that the work from which the top pro's are getting their bang for the buck is not all the filler shit they do around their key sessions, it's the key 'harder aerobic' sessions themselves. Aka Crowie's 10 x 1 mile at 6:00>>5:30/mile reps on a 6:30 send off. Chappo's (NOT a pro anymore. He works big-time! could do with some kids,though) big TT's at the end of his long rides and long swim sets. Or fartlek runs on tired legs. I'd hazard a guess that these PISS buoys are doing alot of their pushing on tired bodies. So they're too fatigued to totally be red-lining their effort, and instead punching out a high quality 'aerobic' effort on their tired legs. Adaptations 101, and mental farking hardening!!

 

And that makes me digress again...that term 'high aerobic' that everyone uses per the great Kiwi run coach Arthur Lydiard. So many people make the assumption that he was talking about 'threshold'/1-hr TT pace('AT' pace) training

 

However, a huge majority of Lydiard's training (100miles a week) was targeted at a pace they could back up day after day.

 

The Lydiard trained runners who ran around 2:10 marathons were hitting a core pace on the flats in training of about 3:15-3:20 per km. Yet the 'AT' requirement for that sort of marathon runner would be about 2:55-2:57/km.

 

I remember talking to a little known guy called Scott Molina about this years back, and he said the same thing.

 

That's a high aerobic/sub-threshold/mod-hard/tempo/close to half IM/grey zone type effort they were hitting.

 

Think I have gone off track again. :-) Getting too, anal.

 

Just go training, don't think 'too' much like I used to, and understand if you want a result you gotta sometimes punch it a bit when you least think you should.

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. Absolute gold.

 

Please keep it coming

 

 

fluro

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As a very average swimmer (64min IM) this thread has been a real education.

 

Thanks to PJ, Reactor, MJK, et al for your contributions.

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Just to clarify - the word strength.

 

It is a topic of great debate because none of what we are talking about actually relates to "strength" as defined physiologically as the maximal force you can apply - i.e. one maximum rep.

 

So confusion then arises when people use the term talking about an endurance activity, such as "swimmers need to get stronger" or just work on their "strength". That does not mean (and I don't think anyone intends it to mean) that swimmers need to work in the gym at increasing their muscular strength. I take it to mean stamina, endurance, muscular endurance etc.

 

Swimming with a band (tether in Melbourne :lol:) involves greater resistance then normal, but for anyone of reasonable fitness, they can do enough repetitions for it not to be strength limited, but again, fitness/endurance limited.

 

Swimming is not about being "strong", not for triathlon distances anyway, it is about the combination of technique and fitness. Neither in isolation, work on both all the time. If swimming was about strength then why can so many 13 to 14 year old girls swim so much faster then grown men with rippling bulging muscles that do triathlon this sport I love :lol::)

 

Some people still want to keep that word "strength" in all these discussions, but it does lead to the confusion. It is used in the cycling discussions erroneously too, but most are used to it now. So whilst I am not fussed if people want to use the term, for those that are new to the area or trying to learn and can be confusing.

 

As to what is the best technique in open water. Well, I'll let others fight that one out. I've got thoughts, and I think they work, they do for me at least, I get out of the water with people who are minutes ahead of me in the pool - but it might not be all down to technique - it could be that Animal instict of racing for food!! :D:):D

 

 

G'day Animal,

 

I know this has been brought up before but I'm still struggling to understand your concept of 'strength'. I just don't agree that strength training is your maximal force you apply for one rep. The reason being if we go to the gym to build strength, we rarely, if every do exercises that involve doing maximal force for one rep. It nevers happens, to build strength, we do weights that allow us to do multiple reps. So in the gym this might be 6 reps or 10 reps, whatever, it's what we do to try and build strength. Just like in cycling, we do repetitions to build strength in a big gear over multiple times and not single repetitions to build strength.

 

How could we possible every measure strength in the pool if we are restricted to measuring strength as a 'one rep' max effort? can't we just put on some bigger paddles to add more weight/resistence? while it might not be anywhere near our one rep max it is still building strength.

 

My question to you is, considering your definition of strength, how do you go about building strength? Should I put the maximum weight around my waist in order to do one chinup to build strength?

 

My definition of strength comes down to being able to either lift more weight, a bigger gear at the same cadence as someone else. If I do that I must be stronger right? I must have more strength??

 

Based on what you are saying above, pure strength training is based around doing your maximal weight for one rep, how can that make you stronger? That is where the confusion lies with me.

 

 

fluro

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The Lydiard trained runners who ran around 2:10 marathons were hitting a core pace on the flats in training of about 3:15-3:20 per km. Yet the 'AT' requirement for that sort of marathon runner would be about 2:55-2:57/km.

 

Sorry to digress, but which runners ran 20.5km in an hour back in the 60's??? They were much closer to AT pace thn you think. The big mistake that weekend warriors do when they follow Lydiard is that they copy the volume but don't realise what pace those guys ran. When you actually scale it down to a volume with similar quality then it is what most good runners are already doing.

Lydiard didn't re-write anything.

 

Just go training, don't think 'too' much like I used to, and understand if you want a result you gotta sometimes punch it a bit when you least think you should.

 

Yes, which is why I like running. Simple and effective, run more-run faster and you race faster. So I can't understand the length of your threads, can't follow all that. Only saw this Lydiard bit because someone else quoted it.

 

As an aspirant IM'er, who is a really,really bad swimmer and hates swimming...the amount of technique requirement I read about here is actually putting me off.

All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

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All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

 

 

Thats what people don't get. It's much more then saving just 10min off your time, it's about being more efficient and saving energy so that when you do get to the run you can KEEP running.

 

You might be able to take alot more time off your marathon, and I agree with you here, but if your nuked at the start of the marathon, all that marathon specific training will amount to very little.

 

 

fluro

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Sorry to digress, but which runners ran 20.5km in an hour back in the 60's??? They were much closer to AT pace thn you think. The big mistake that weekend warriors do when they follow Lydiard is that they copy the volume but don't realise what pace those guys ran. When you actually scale it down to a volume with similar quality then it is what most good runners are already doing.

Lydiard didn't re-write anything.

 

 

 

Yes, which is why I like running. Simple and effective, run more-run faster and you race faster. So I can't understand the length of your threads, can't follow all that. Only saw this Lydiard bit because someone else quoted it.

 

As an aspirant IM'er, who is a really,really bad swimmer and hates swimming...the amount of technique requirement I read about here is actually putting me off.

All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

 

To my knowledge Lydiard was still advising elite international runners in his consultancy role way beyond the 1960's! Try adding another 20++ years.

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Guest Rentakill

.... Evil, taking ten minutes off you swim for most (because of the company you keep up the faster end) will if you play your cards right possibly pan out to a substantially faster bike and possibly half an hour quicker at the end, once again with the caveat 'if you play your cards right'..

 

Matty, yeah 100's are where its at and easy on the mind, funny how I never knew that was what everyone else was doing, I just used to do that as well, although it has been a long time since I was doing them on the 1.20, I still have no probs coming in on the 1.20 ish and doing a 1.30 cycle. and concentrating on holding the time for the repeat, rather than having the time drop off.

 

I was lazy though and didnt swim long. Squad can be good or bad, especially when you are moving along in the moving water. I also did a lot of swimming training on my own with a watch and big paddles I like around 2-3pm at public pools (ahh shift work), the mums have gone to pick up their kids from school and the squads havent descended and you can get a lane to yourself. I also used to do hard swim sessions after hard weights sessions and run after swimming and I reckon there is a lot to this.

 

Mick is right pool swimming is very different from open water swimming and wetsuit swimming is very different again, and like Mick a lot of people that could pants me in the pool were suddenly a ways back when they didnt have a black line to follow or tumble turns to do, and a few waves, chops, kicking and sun in your eyes.

 

I might add on that point that my eyesight is..... shit. I now wear contacts all the time and wish I had started wearing them a bit earlier on when I was racing, I remember a few comical episodes where I couldnt see the can but was leading and would take the whole race a few hundred metres off course, that happened more than once, probably didnt hurt me as it confused people, slowed them down and made the swim longer..... but it was probably funny to watch.

Edited by Rentakill

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Guest Rentakill

Might add that MJK's dad was a champion marathon swimmer and english channel swimmer..... (I think mate??) just thought I would chuck that out there.

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Might add that MJK's dad was a champion marathon swimmer and english channel swimmer..... (I think mate??) just thought I would chuck that out there.

 

John did the Cook Strait....between the shaky isles...arguably a harder, colder swim the the Channel on its day

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Sorry to digress, but which runners ran 20.5km in an hour back in the 60's??? They were much closer to AT pace thn you think. The big mistake that weekend warriors do when they follow Lydiard is that they copy the volume but don't realise what pace those guys ran. When you actually scale it down to a volume with similar quality then it is what most good runners are already doing.

Lydiard didn't re-write anything.

 

 

 

Yes, which is why I like running. Simple and effective, run more-run faster and you race faster. So I can't understand the length of your threads, can't follow all that. Only saw this Lydiard bit because someone else quoted it.

 

As an aspirant IM'er, who is a really,really bad swimmer and hates swimming...the amount of technique requirement I read about here is actually putting me off.

All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

 

That 10 minutes in the swim pays forward big time

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