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Could someone remind me what the question was again??? wasn't it - how do you improve your swim time in an Ironman distance triathlon? (something like that!)

 

Seems like we've gone way off track here!

 

Triathlon swimming as a newbie is completely different to learning how to swim faster as someone who's already doing the endurance distances!

 

:lol:

 

um how is any of this off track? All is relevant to the 48min - 75min Ironman swimmer

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ok. Im no expert. I'm Pete Jacobs :lol:

 

Good topic, and this is my answer to the initial question. How to swim faster.

 

I've looked online to find some videos to use as examples why some people can't get faster, and what you need to do to swim faster. Everything is based on what you control with your brain, not what your lungs/fitness limit you to.

 

Firstly, after looking on youtube it was hard to find videos of swimmers of our level and goals. That is, we want to swim efficiently for a long time, most videos are of olympic swimmers sprinting. The rhythm is quicker for them. They catch earlier when racing.

 

 

if this guy swims like you, that's why you're slow. His arms constantly move at one slow pace. There is never any movement of muscles with speed or strength. His rhythm is non existent, as is his streamline, momentum, body position.

 

 

 

this guys technique looks great. he has nice rhythm. His rhythm is acheived by leaving his hand gliding in front until just before his recovery arm hits the water, his recovery arm drops relaxed & quickly into water, and his catch is quick with flick of wrist.

This allows for best rotation, position for powerful catch and push(extension), streamline on side(low drag). He could improve by lowering and widening his arm in glide postition to allow his shoulders to drop and help him swim downhill.

 

 

Mr smooth catches too early. because of this he does not get full extension of his arm pushing water past his hip and therefore rotation(streamline) is also limited. He should wait until his recovery hand is just about to hit the water. His recovery arm is also too slow and controlled on entry into the water.

However it is a good example of the wrist bending to start the catch and the fingers pointing to the bottom of the pool through entire catch, and how much the elbow should bend.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_M7P_jmgBE...feature=related Micheal Phelps swimming slow. nice rhythm. nice relaxed arm dropping quickly into the water, allowing for quick rotation and catch.

 

questions?

Hope this helps a bit

PJ

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Yep, I have a question PJ. Will try to describe it as best I can. In the vids of the good swimmers it seems as though their recovery arm almost catches up with their leading arm. So leading arm is just entering the water and about 1/4 of the way through the in water part and the recovery arm is almost ready to enter.

Make sense?

Is this correct and how do you go about getting this happening from years of the opposite practice of recovery arm by the hip whilst the leading arm is out in front just about to enter the water.

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Original sentiment still stands, fix your technique, then focus on endurance and strength. I'm not saying you need to have perfect form or even near perfect form, but swimming poorly even if it is strong is only going to go so far.

 

Also, having a friend qoute Becker doesn't make you an expert!

 

You can still swim drills and practice technique while building strength.

 

Conor

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Yep, I have a question PJ. Will try to describe it as best I can. In the vids of the good swimmers it seems as though their recovery arm almost catches up with their leading arm. So leading arm is just entering the water and about 1/4 of the way through the in water part and the recovery arm is almost ready to enter.

Make sense?

Is this correct and how do you go about getting this happening from years of the opposite practice of recovery arm by the hip whilst the leading arm is out in front just about to enter the water.

 

 

careful now, but catch up drill?

 

My current coach is a swimming coach and when I first started she told me I was gliding too much and that my recovery arm is by my hip while the other is out in front, like yours onez. With her if there's one thing we do pretty much none of is catch-up drills.

 

Prior to her the coach was a PT who also did tri coaching. He talked about the glide and we did tons of full and 3/4 catch-up drills. That second vid looks very much like 3/4 catch-up.

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hey,

not sure where that long quote iof info above came from, but i agree and disagree with the long rant above about strength being more important than technique.

 

I have seen dozens of intances where there are big strong guys who work out at the gym, and swim, and who are way slower than a female with very little strength, all because of differences in technique.

 

I hadn't been in a pool in 7 weeks until monday this week, thanks to a broken collar bone. I lost a lot of muscle mass on my right side, and could barely lift my arm above my head. 1st day in the water i was still faster than other triathletes. A perfect example of having technique, and no strength.

 

However, I was buggered after 1km. My shoulders were sore. So yes, strength is important. But not as important as technique.

 

There is less benefit to be gained if you focus on strength. Swimming with bad technique is not just slow, it also does not use the correct and stronger muscles for swimming. You can swim train for strength and get as fast as you can with bad technique, but that is as fast as you can go. If you want to get faster, you will have to start from scratch, with different muscles.

 

Swim strength efforts only as long as you can maintain good form, then get out of the pool, or do a little bit with flippers.

This might mean only 1km easy as a swim session (broken), or doing 8 strokes hard holding good form (to activate more muscles = greater adaptation), then easy. Build up to as far as you can holding good form, and going hard.

 

Pete

Edited by pj81

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hey,

not sure where that long quote iof info above came from, but i agree and disagree with the long rant above about strength being more important than technique.

 

I have seen dozens of intances where there are big strong guys who work out at the gym, and swim, and who are way slower than a female with very little strength, all because of differences in technique.

 

I hadn't been in a pool in 7 weeks until monday this week, thanks to a broken collar bone. I lost a lot of muscle mass on my right side, and could barely lift my arm above my head. 1st day in the water i was still faster than other triathletes. A perfect example of having technique, and no strength.

 

However, I was buggered after 1km. My shoulders were sore. So yes, strength is important. But not as important as technique.

 

There is less benefit to be gained if you focus on strength. Swimming with bad technique is not just slow, it also does not use the correct and stronger muscles for swimming. You can swim train for strength and get as fast as you can with bad technique, but that is as fast as you can go. If you want to get faster, you will have to start from scratch, with different muscles.

 

Swim strength efforts only as long as you can maintain good form, then get out of the pool, or do a little bit with flippers.

This might mean only 1km easy as a swim session (broken), or doing 8 strokes hard holding good form (to activate more muscles = greater adaptation), then easy. Build up to as far as you can holding good form, and going hard.

 

Pete

 

You make some good general points. Of course good technique will be faster than bad technique.

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

You said the guy in the second video has great technique. Yes he does for a pool swimmer. But that style of swimming is irrelevant to the average age grouper. The majority of them will never develop the technique, timing, kick and strength to swim effectively like that in the pool, especially when they start swimming at 30+ yrs old and can only devote 3 swims a week. Now they will definitely never be able to swim effectively like that in the open water with chop and 1000 other people. Unless you are an amazing swimmer, you will go backwards in the open water trying to swim with that 'catch up' style stroke.

 

So my point. Yes the guys in your videos have great technique. No the average age grouper could ever swim effectively like that or it the the most effective way for them to swim. This is where you and so many others lose perspective.

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You make some good general points. Of course good technique will be faster than bad technique.

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

You said the guy in the second video has great technique. Yes he does for a pool swimmer. But that style of swimming is irrelevant to the average age grouper. The majority of them will never develop the technique, timing, kick and strength to swim effectively like that in the pool, especially when they start swimming at 30+ yrs old and can only devote 3 swims a week. Now they will definitely never be able to swim effectively like that in the open water with chop and 1000 other people. Unless you are an amazing swimmer, you will go backwards in the open water trying to swim with that 'catch up' style stroke.

 

So my point. Yes the guys in your videos have great technique. No the average age grouper could ever swim effectively like that or it the the most effective way for them to swim. This is where you and so many others lose perspective.

 

Haha, mate i'm sorry but the average age groupers you are talking about are able to improve their technique. I've seen it. And their race times are quicker too.

 

So please, don't tell people they can't do something.

 

cheers

Pete

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You make some good general points. Of course good technique will be faster than bad technique.

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

You said the guy in the second video has great technique. Yes he does for a pool swimmer. But that style of swimming is irrelevant to the average age grouper. The majority of them will never develop the technique, timing, kick and strength to swim effectively like that in the pool, especially when they start swimming at 30+ yrs old and can only devote 3 swims a week. Now they will definitely never be able to swim effectively like that in the open water with chop and 1000 other people. Unless you are an amazing swimmer, you will go backwards in the open water trying to swim with that 'catch up' style stroke.

 

So my point. Yes the guys in your videos have great technique. No the average age grouper could ever swim effectively like that or it the the most effective way for them to swim. This is where you and so many others lose perspective.

 

So to paraphrase, you will never get good technique, so don't bother trying, build up your strength instead?

 

I'm tipping most people doing ironman will continue in the sport for some time, at that distance or others. Do you honestly think that a swimmer, even a late starter cannot improve their technique and efficiency by training 3+ sessions a week for several years?

 

I know you'll answer yes, of course they can, but strength is a better way of making gains in your swim times. I agree, you need to be swimming strong to swim long and fast, but you can focus on strength building whilst improving technique.

 

Better to improve the stroke first, then develop strength.

 

Conor

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Haha, mate i'm sorry but the average age groupers you are talking about are able to improve their technique. I've seen it. And their race times are quicker too.

 

So please, don't tell people they can't do something.

 

cheers

Pete

 

To clarify.

 

Yes everyone can and should improve their technique.

 

Your videos (2nd video and the Phelps) are not what the average age grouper should aspire to. Too much reliance on kick, glide and catch up style swimming. Unless they become very good swimmers.. e.g. sub 4.45 400m they will go backwards in the open water.

 

Yes people can attain good technique and should aspire to it.

 

But the 'catch up' style technique you promote is not the most effective way for them to improve.

 

From my very first post I have said this. I have never said technique doesn't matter.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71CN4yNMgtY this is still good technique and is a lot more achievable to the average age grouper and A LOT more effective in the open water.

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To clarify.

 

Yes everyone can and should improve their technique.

 

Your videos (2nd video and the Phelps) are not what the average age grouper should aspire to. Too much reliance on kick, glide and catch up style swimming. Unless they become very good swimmers.. e.g. sub 4.45 400m they will go backwards in the open water.

 

Yes people can attain good technique and should aspire to it.

 

But the 'catch up' style technique you promote is not the most effective way for them to improve.

 

From my very first post I have said this. I have never said technique doesn't matter.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71CN4yNMgtY this is still good technique and is a lot more achievable to the average age grouper and A LOT more effective in the open water.

 

hahaha, thanks for the laugh! that video is funny. How you can post a video of someone swimming a world record, going flat out, and say that is what they should swim like for a triathlon....

 

I posted the video of Phelps as something people should be aiming towards. Of course no one is going to swim exactly like that, but the problem is that people already swim like the janet evans video you posted and they are going backwards.

 

The people on youtube who commented on the video disagree with you...

 

Reactor, have you ever taught anyone swimming? Have you ever coached a triahtlete in the water?

 

Cheers

Pete

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hahaha, thanks for the laugh! that video is funny. How you can post a video of someone swimming a world record, going flat out, and say that is what they should swim like for a triathlon....

 

I posted the video of Phelps as something people should be aiming towards. Of course no one is going to swim exactly like that, but the problem is that people already swim like the janet evans video you posted and they are going backwards.

 

The people on youtube who commented on the video disagree with you...

 

Reactor, have you ever taught anyone swimming? Have you ever coached a triahtlete in the water?

 

Cheers

Pete

 

Haha mate I knew you would say that about the world record etc. The mechanics of her stroke won't change dramatically though if she slows down. Her kick rate will slow, and her turnover will slow, but she will still be grabbing water early and catching strongly. I wish I could find a video of her not winning or setting a WR.....

 

People already swim like Evans are going backwards?? Who?? They are also some of the best swimmers in Triathlon ..... Moffatt, Luxford, Snowsill, Walton, Amberger, Every ITU russian, Stanard....None of these great triathlon swimmers swim with slow catch up style technique you promote from the 2nd Video.

 

You still haven't said why what I am saying is so ineffective and why what you say is so amazing.

 

The 4 people who commented on youtube? Who are they? They must be experts....

 

I've coached, seen plenty of people coached etc etc just as you have. I don't see why this takes away from the validity of either argument. If you wanna go on that, well I didn't come up with these ideas on triathlete swimming. Maybe you should argue with the Suttons, Waltons and Beckers of the world.

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What is more importent- tecnique or strength :lol:

 

Its a bit like asking what came first- the chicken or the egg :lol:

 

They are both of equal importence for developing a faster IM swim time.

 

The thing about swimming is that the faster you swim the greater the resistance of the water, so the stronger you need to be. Technique helps to lower this resistance as well as increasing the efficiency of each stroke.

 

To improve in cycling you work on strength and efficiency, as well as reducing wind resistence by becoming more aerodynamic- they are all importent aspects to focus on in improving cycling times- what makes swim training any different.

Edited by sunnygirl

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If strength was more important than technique - why do old guys and little kids whip me in the pool? It isn't because they are stronger - it is because they have better technique.

 

I see the old guy gets in the pool with his massive beer gut and then just slices through the water - or the ten year old girl probably lucky to weigh 30 kgs, just goes and punches out a super quick 50.

 

Where do they sit in this argument?

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Haha mate I knew you would say that about the world record etc. The mechanics of her stroke won't change dramatically though if she slows down. Her kick rate will slow, and her turnover will slow, but she will still be grabbing water early and catching strongly. I wish I could find a video of her not winning or setting a WR.....

 

People already swim like Evans are going backwards?? Who?? They are also some of the best swimmers in Triathlon ..... Moffatt, Luxford, Snowsill, Walton, Amberger, Every ITU russian, Stanard....None of these great triathlon swimmers swim with slow catch up style technique you promote from the 2nd Video.

 

You still haven't said why what I am saying is so ineffective and why what you say is so amazing.

 

The 4 people who commented on youtube? Who are they? They must be experts....

 

I've coached, seen plenty of people coached etc etc just as you have. I don't see why this takes away from the validity of either argument. If you wanna go on that, well I didn't come up with these ideas on triathlete swimming. Maybe you should argue with the Suttons, Waltons and Beckers of the world.

 

Mate, i don't need to argue against you, you did it yourself. You quoted all these top swimmers as your proof of your technique ideas being better (would be great if you could get some proof on how they swim, or endorsement from them), and even if they do swim like Janet Evans (which is debatable), this topic is about average age groupers. Not guys going flat out.

 

My first post had all the videos and explanation of why i believe what i believe.

 

And I also disagree about Janet Evans stroke not changing when she swims easy. But this is just my opinion. Guess we'll never know the truth.

 

It's been fun, but i think we aren't making progress anymore, so see you all later.

All the best to everyone trying to improve your swim, whichever technique you choose is best for you.

Cheers

Pete

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So yes, strength is important. But not as important as technique.

 

It's good to see one of the best Ironman swimmers in the world come on here and straighten out a few annonymous experts :lol:

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

I am a 60+ triathlete who has improved his 100m swim time (just the distance I chose to chart progress) by 5 sec between the age of 58 and 61. This is not easy as I have been competing for 25yrs and tried most ideas. :lol:

 

I did this by focussing on technique only, and only swam three times a week. I have a coach in Brisbane, but every time Pete was in Brisbane, he was chasing my Harley around a few flat roads we know of at 60kph. But I was taking advantage of his expertise in the water (which he demonstrates every time a gun goes off)

 

I've never met Reactor1, but if I ever do, he might be able to help me improve further, one guy in my cat. beat me out of the water in Hawaii last October, I don't want that to happen this year :D

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Guest Animal

Just to clarify - the word strength.

 

It is a topic of great debate because none of what we are talking about actually relates to "strength" as defined physiologically as the maximal force you can apply - i.e. one maximum rep.

 

So confusion then arises when people use the term talking about an endurance activity, such as "swimmers need to get stronger" or just work on their "strength". That does not mean (and I don't think anyone intends it to mean) that swimmers need to work in the gym at increasing their muscular strength. I take it to mean stamina, endurance, muscular endurance etc.

 

Swimming with a band (tether in Melbourne :lol:) involves greater resistance then normal, but for anyone of reasonable fitness, they can do enough repetitions for it not to be strength limited, but again, fitness/endurance limited.

 

Swimming is not about being "strong", not for triathlon distances anyway, it is about the combination of technique and fitness. Neither in isolation, work on both all the time. If swimming was about strength then why can so many 13 to 14 year old girls swim so much faster then grown men with rippling bulging muscles that do triathlon this sport I love :lol::)

 

Some people still want to keep that word "strength" in all these discussions, but it does lead to the confusion. It is used in the cycling discussions erroneously too, but most are used to it now. So whilst I am not fussed if people want to use the term, for those that are new to the area or trying to learn and can be confusing.

 

As to what is the best technique in open water. Well, I'll let others fight that one out. I've got thoughts, and I think they work, they do for me at least, I get out of the water with people who are minutes ahead of me in the pool - but it might not be all down to technique - it could be that Animal instict of racing for food!! :D:):D

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It's good to see one of the best Ironman swimmers in the world come on here and straighten out a few annonymous experts :lol:

 

Why can't people argue on the merit of an idea, not on who's putting it forward? I guess Ian Thorpe is the best swim coach in the world? Play the ball not the man!

 

I've never met Reactor1, but if I ever do, he might be able to help me improve further, one guy in my cat. beat me out of the water in Hawaii last October, I don't want that to happen this year :lol:

 

If people could see through the fog, they would understand this hasn't been about strength vs technique, but one style of technique vs another style of technique. I have explain numerous times why I believe a certain way is the most effective and the limitations on the classic catch up style swimming advocated by Pete and many others. No one has actually addressed what I am saying, or why what I am putting forward is so wrong!

Instead of arguing back and forth on videos of WR holders or how such and such swims, it would be great if you guys countered this 'anonymous expert's' arguments on the limitations of catch up style swimming for age group triathletes.

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More Sutto speak...

 

Take what you want, chuck out the rest.

 

More than one way to train, boys. This is but one that I have known to be very effective. ;-)

 

Forgot I had all this stuff saved in my PC.

 

Btw...Doc is Sutto. Like him or loathe him, it's training methods under discussion here;

 

Matt

 

 

"Why big pull buoy? to get as high in the water as a wet suit.

we all so use it for effecting the stroke also .

many hidden mysteries of the paddles pullbouy band .

 

you can plow up an down a pool with paddles with no thought and pop times .

but you take em off and if you dont have a good technique

you go nowhere .

so they are very false economy .

just as i would not put tyr catalysts on a good swimmer.

they do not work for a good swimmer at all .

but if you dont swim 55 for a guy and 60 for a female .

then you will have no problems with catalyst paddles at all .

so i think this covers most of triathlon .

as sugar states the shape tracks the stroke for you .

do enuff of them and you will pick up

the motor pattern , or atleast have your arms moving in a more efficient line that what you have now .

paddles

depends on what your trying to promote ,

they are nothing but a tool in my view to provide an outcome that a swimmer wants to do but cant get it with thought .

the paddles pull bouy can provide those movements with out thought

 

Keat: What sort of paddles are you using?

Most people on the team are encouraged to use TYR catalyst paddles, as Doc says they promote a correct stroke in terms of placement and pull.

As a 'weaker' swimmer, I personally don't overthink the stroke, just put the arms in and go. One thing I am conscious of though, is finishing my stroke on my thigh. But I guess everyone is different and has different parts to focus on in the stroke.

 

Following doc´s advice , my swimming group of triathletes are using TYR Catalysts paddles . The worst guys have improved their stroke , the better ones have improved their power (sorry ,no power talk here,i mean their times).

 

Now the rest of the freelance teammates (no-need-coach), incredulous , are asking for these paddles .

 

a very good question ,

so i will answer personally , as i think age group level athletes doing mostly wetsuit races.

could do most of their swim training in a wet suit , and improve dramatically .

obviously when your in a hot climate, or in a very hot indoor pool .

over heating will happen after 10 to 15 min .

but if you have an olympic out door pool of around 20 to 24 c

you can do wet suit training and it is a major benefit .

in the other circumstances over the years , i have had pros

do the first set in the wetsuit then hop out and practice taking it off very quickly .

doing intervals with your wetsuit , can enhance your swim ability , to be more efficient in a wets suit .

 

we do a lot of pull to compensate for wet suit .

but to actually train in it does give strength to the recovery muscles ,that have to deal with the restriction of the rubber

it is a valid stress very much under scored in triathlon .

so, dont let others put you off doing it

one last tip ,

it doesnt make it easier , in fact , it will tire you out much quicker , and so i have had plenty say on their recovery day we go swim in the lake and just get the feel of the wet suit

only to be amazed that the next swim day they felt lethargic and very tired in the arms .

so ,

if most or all of your races , is a wet suit swim .

dont wait to go to a lake , get it on and do your pool sets at least once a week .

it will be a positive to your tri swim perfomance

you can bet on that

 

taken out of context people

you use band only with out a mother big pull bouy if your an average swimmer , and it will kill you ,

physically and then give you major shoulder problems .

even when we use band , we kick with it , for the average swimmers

or use big pull bouy

these you cant get , so my resolution for my next trip , is to make a proper pull bouy for average swimmers the rubbish speedo and areana and other mobs put out

is criminal

 

Doc,

 

I have consistently been smack on 60 mins for my IM swims, so am I correct in understanding that when we use bands, we should use a pullbuoy too?

Doc: with paddles

yes , if longer than 50 m also yes .

but its got to be in context of the training , thats the key

 

Bek Keat: Perfect sounds just like my training method too funny that..?Funny also after 10 years of swim squad training with some of the' so called' best coaches my swim didnt improve a second.Now thanks to Doc and my new technique no kick and lots of strength, I am swimming faster than ever before! So congratulations we can share that swim feeling together!

 

i know what the mind set is /

unfortuneately , people try to teach technique to people with no skill level at the exercise wether it be

swimming or running

or biking .

so they , pull out their old level 2 instruction manual and apply it to mr average jo .

he may hold it for 25 m in swim , maybe 1km on the run , possible 10km , on the bike .

then it falls apart and they sink ,dawdle and ride like a pussy for long periods of time .

your problem ,

is you have ran into Stephen (Bayliss) who is passionate on this topic

as he is the case study .

he was in the british federation bullshit , sorry but we are a fact related web site here .

after much training and stroke work , he was released

with the words you cant swim well enuff and your technigue not good enuff , to be a pro triathlete

so into the scrap heap for you

next , please .

so he journey mans around swimming in the 3rd pacjk in short course , moves to long and is in the 2nd pack and goes ok .

links up with sutto

and we watch him trying his high elbows breathing both sides , stretching out counting strokes,

wiggling like a worm on a fishing rod as he tries to do perfect technique .

 

i get all excited because i watch him run and his natural gait makes me think

hey this man got a bit of skill , these swim coaches have just killed it in the swim .

so i say , i can fix this

"stephen you willing to change ? yep , do you care how you look ?, nope i just want to get out in the first group .

yeh you say that now but , your a triathlete , how you look is very important .

no coach, whos style do you want me to copy ".

well back when i first meet him , the australian team was kickin the english cricket team .

and the damage was being done by glen mc gath .

so

i said "stephen we are going with the ooooh aarrrrr mc grath action ."

but coach he is a cricketer , not a swimmer , yes , stephen very perceptive of you but he is the best

and i think your swimming fits his stroke .

we going to go with the strait one arm breathing on one side , and stop trying to feel the water , stop all that stretching out crap and stop counting your strokes

and use your natural turn over , that you have in the run ."

shit , seems strange but i ll give it a go

and stephen did , and it got better and better , he soon was in the first pack in ironman ,

then he soon leading the swims and every body could see who it was because of his bowling arm , every body knows where bayliss is .

now bare with me we getting to the moral of the story .

stephen was now not swimming 55 min but now hits 47 min for the swims but theres more .

he can now get out not in the 3rd pack but the 1st pack in short races .

12 months ago ,

he went and in front of his old bosses who said "stephen your not good enuff f........ of"f,

he beat all the young itu brits out of the water and existed with the guy that promotes himself as brits best richard stennard , stephen all over him like a rash . he then got knocked or something off the bike

but here comes the punch line

he has transcended 2 packs jumped three levels

and the old boys who got rid of him said

gees stephen , " you know if you could work on your technique a bit , you looki bloody awful , you could be the best swimmer in britain "

you see they still dont get it .

you still dont get it .

you cant make a silk purse out of a pigs ear .

but you can make a pigs ear carry more than a silk purse , if thats what your looking for .

happy for you input .

stephen has just learnt

to average skilled swimmers

forget technique , teach movement , and then repeat , repeat repeat .

movement will take you foreward

technique will take average joe down .

 

hi

joe has hit similiar numbers that work for the pros

swimming

a stroke per mtr is fine

usually we are reading about cadence and distance per stroke of 36 to 40

for the best swimmers

well i watched a lot of the best swimmers

and 6" 6 grant hacket is a big guy with a long stroke

his rythem was no lower than 43 and when he turned it on up to 46

keiran perkins was the same only a around the 46

mark more than not

yet he stroke slowed down when he was sprinting , all true

he had rythem and the turn over was that

i had a female go 8m25 long vcourse back in 1981

she would 2 beat and hit 50 strokes per 50 m

i had another who was not as talented

hold 8min32 was about 46 kg and took 72 , i kidd you not

its a personal thing .

same as if your 6 " plus running 100 cadence is not going to suit your anatonomy.

 

 

Hi

I am swimming more than ever with paddles and pull bouy. Have 3 swims a week, 1 is without paddles/bouy with short hard intervall`s (typically 10x100 + 10x50 + 10x25), 1 is with paddles/bouy only (typically 8-10x400) and 1 is a long 4500-5500m swim with 50/50 with/without paddles/bouy.

But I seem to strugle to get my intensity and HR up when i swim with paddles. Is that right? I guess it is since its strength work? Or am I doing something wrong? Or am I not strong enough yet? Or are my paddles to small/big? Any advice?

 

Doc: and thats what we are after!"

Edited by MJK

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It's good to see one of the best Ironman swimmers in the world come on here and straighten out a few annonymous experts :lol:

 

+1

 

I've been going to PJs stroke correction squad when every I can make it and am slowly correcting my stroke to the way PJ suggests. It's made a huge inprovement in my swimming both in open water and in the pool. Gone from a non swimmer 2.5 yrs ago to completing 2.7K open water swims this year. Thanks PJ.

 

Don't know enough about swimming to join in the rest of the discussion :lol:

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that is why you suck in a race .

legs do not propell you , the very best swimmers , only count 10% from actual leg propulsion

they are used for body lift ,

with said cheat suit whoops i mean wet suit .

lift is taken care of .

so , practicing getting your arms fit and strong , is one of the reasons we work with the paddles

also for the lees blessed swimmers , i read ,

and miss cocco and bella , are very blessed ,

so lets say , swim challenged ,

with the right sized paddle , and pull bouy , they will take more arm strokes with better mechanics than

if they just swim normally with no gear on .

so 2nd point

insurance policy , against dropped elbows and wrists , and then repeating the bad movements over and over again , thus ingraining bad technique

3rd if you swimming in a pack

you have people swimming over and around the legs ,. some good pool swimmers , dont fair well in the big packs if they are leg dominated purists

as once the legs are taken out , it changes their stroke , and they are stranded with less feel for the water thus lose speed .

so, yes , i am answering , our friends note thru yours hope that is ok

miss coco has a technique that does get her hands under her body , and thus , me saying the swordfish

is technicolly not so bad ,

she is very right about swimming is tricky .

even tricks her ,

she thinks her swim didnot improve much ,

however it improved tremndously , but in her case it did not show physically in time in the swim leg ,however

her bike leg was helped tremendously , by the improvement and her over all strength for the whole distance was a very big step foreward

pundits say

your ride improved so much , YES it did and the swim contributed atleast 30% to the impovement

triathlon is about one sport . with 3 sub sports .

conclusion

we use gear for the swim challenged ,

they use it 60% more than the good swimmers in our group

females use it 50% more than men in our group .

why?

there lack of natural strength .

how can you use it to help ,

as erika said

its a tricky thing ,

need to see , what stroke you have , now

to prescribe ,

you have size 8 shoe , terrible to senf you an 11, over the internet .

 

its diffferent STROKES for different FOLKS

hope this helps

 

muffin man nailed it , for me .

however , we both know . its not practical , for you ironman people .

we have switched our emphasis a whole lot over time .

crusty swim coach , moved with the sport ,

there is little swimming in triathlon today

short course a joke , long course ,

is not much better but a tired 3.800m

can kill your race period .

my man ,i would love to further advise ,

but we got shysters from evry where charging copious ammounts of money for info , that is down right scandelous , i am sure muffin man can , confirm , but american age groupers fall for it ,

while dear ole doc , gets banged up from forum to forum , for his no brain ideas .

my problem , well the dinasours athletes keep winnin things while the white coat brigade , keep on talkin a good game .

you stay here and you will get more common sence , than all of them put together ,

but , the boss will kill me , that we run the best team in the world he pays for it , and

i am online coaching thru the forum ,

while we struggle for online coaching clients

while

the others are overflowing , and are handing out total crap .

or ponce method , or is that pose .

haha , better not get started ,

 

you start with same paddles as all the other girls .

your a big unit , you have no excuse for puny paddles other than you a little bit shy of some pain.

 

your run does not help you bike or swim at aall .

take that tip .

 

peter reed had it right ,

the difference between peter reid and lother , the swim

lother lazy hate to train in the pool .

with the black cheat suit on no problem

but open water

no suit and ruff swim ,

he was gone before he put his bike shoes on ,

just like karyn thurig .

you cant get by with a very weak out of condition swim in hawaaii it comes back to bite you

 

Hi Ya,

 

I came from absolutely no swim back ground at all, literally the most I did was play tea party in a little pool as a kid and inner tube in a ditch.

I did my first swim stroke in a triathlon club in 1999. I never learned technique, just starting swimming with the group and followed everybody's lead, slowly over each month I moved up from very last in the slowest lane to faster lanes. But I never was taught anything about swimming. I finally learned a flip turn, sort of, in 2005.

As time went by people starting teaching me "technique", but it was too late, the pattern I was using was ingrained. To top that off I could never truely "feel" anything in the water, people would give me "tips" and I had NO idea.

I worked relentlessly on the cords in the mirror, in the gym and in the pool. I swam 20-30km per week for 2 years. I even joined a high level ITU squad to try to get faster, I just got really tired.

The lowest point I think I hit was swimming 30/week, plus cords, plus gym, then raced a very important race to me and wasn't one second faster swimming, I was 4th in that IM and I ran faster and bike faster than everybody in front of me that day, but I swam 15min slower than the girls in front of me. I couldn't get in the pool for 3 weeks after that cause I was so heart broken.

 

Then I met Brett. And like the article says ,and I tell people all the time, it was such a breath of fresh air!! I have always been pretty strong. I rode competitive show jumping horses from age 9--25. So I had a naturally strong back.

Brett could see I was very dissheartened with swimming and he gave me back some hope.

The training:

not so much volume

more small swims ie: 3x 1500m throughout the day but very specific work.

NO SLOW DRILL WORK!! Thank GOD!!

Shorter faster reps where I could maintain my stroke and swim fast before I got tired.

Paddles!

 

That's all I'll let out of the bag. He can share more if he would like

 

I spent 6 weeks in Thialand with him and then went to an IM and swam nearly 6min faster than the last time I did an IM

 

Lengths were 25m-many many many 25's

Toy's were paddles and band and bouy.

 

And for those asking if I ever tried video feedback, YES I did several times. And I had a good freind who was a syncro olympic coach swim under water under neath me putting her hand in places so I HAD to do the right technique. I treid EVERYTHING!! I wanted to swim faster. But mates....it was when doc told me to stop worrying about it and use what I got when I started to swim faster.

 

Cheers,

Marilyn

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I dont have the attention span to read the very long posts, but something my swim coach said the other night (I wish sometimes I record his talks as they are useful, simple, and stick in the mind) , theres so many ways to swim freestyle, the loaping strokes, the open water choppy style, straight arm etc. Strength VS technique or not, you need to work out what stroke suits you. I swim straight arm for sprints and run my outboard motor with my feet till my legs are jelly, but lengthen out the distance and the stroke changes as does the kick. Girls in my squad that swim the 5 and 10km's have very little change between their sprint (not that they really do) and their distance stroke. One has a very high turn over of arms, the others seem to stretch out. I've only ever done half IM but in those I'll change through out the swim from high rating to get going, to a long powerful stroke then back to a medium sustainable rating and power.

 

One thing I would say for everyone to try, get out the video camera and have a mate film you swim. Do this in a few ways, do a few sprints to see what you do under presure, and then (if its a good mate) do a longer swim, and have them film at different parts through it to see what you do when you fatigue.

 

I will also say I am not 100% happy with the huge reccomendations for people to use paddles. If you have bad technique and you use paddles you can over load through the rotator cuffs. If you must use them.... do so sparingly and in a set where you are concentrating on what your arms are doing.

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