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Could someone remind me what the question was again??? wasn't it - how do you improve your swim time in an Ironman distance triathlon? (something like that!)

 

Seems like we've gone way off track here!

 

Triathlon swimming as a newbie is completely different to learning how to swim faster as someone who's already doing the endurance distances!

 

:lol:

 

um how is any of this off track? All is relevant to the 48min - 75min Ironman swimmer

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ok. Im no expert. I'm Pete Jacobs :lol:

 

Good topic, and this is my answer to the initial question. How to swim faster.

 

I've looked online to find some videos to use as examples why some people can't get faster, and what you need to do to swim faster. Everything is based on what you control with your brain, not what your lungs/fitness limit you to.

 

Firstly, after looking on youtube it was hard to find videos of swimmers of our level and goals. That is, we want to swim efficiently for a long time, most videos are of olympic swimmers sprinting. The rhythm is quicker for them. They catch earlier when racing.

 

 

if this guy swims like you, that's why you're slow. His arms constantly move at one slow pace. There is never any movement of muscles with speed or strength. His rhythm is non existent, as is his streamline, momentum, body position.

 

 

 

this guys technique looks great. he has nice rhythm. His rhythm is acheived by leaving his hand gliding in front until just before his recovery arm hits the water, his recovery arm drops relaxed & quickly into water, and his catch is quick with flick of wrist.

This allows for best rotation, position for powerful catch and push(extension), streamline on side(low drag). He could improve by lowering and widening his arm in glide postition to allow his shoulders to drop and help him swim downhill.

 

 

Mr smooth catches too early. because of this he does not get full extension of his arm pushing water past his hip and therefore rotation(streamline) is also limited. He should wait until his recovery hand is just about to hit the water. His recovery arm is also too slow and controlled on entry into the water.

However it is a good example of the wrist bending to start the catch and the fingers pointing to the bottom of the pool through entire catch, and how much the elbow should bend.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_M7P_jmgBE...feature=related Micheal Phelps swimming slow. nice rhythm. nice relaxed arm dropping quickly into the water, allowing for quick rotation and catch.

 

questions?

Hope this helps a bit

PJ

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Yep, I have a question PJ. Will try to describe it as best I can. In the vids of the good swimmers it seems as though their recovery arm almost catches up with their leading arm. So leading arm is just entering the water and about 1/4 of the way through the in water part and the recovery arm is almost ready to enter.

Make sense?

Is this correct and how do you go about getting this happening from years of the opposite practice of recovery arm by the hip whilst the leading arm is out in front just about to enter the water.

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Original sentiment still stands, fix your technique, then focus on endurance and strength. I'm not saying you need to have perfect form or even near perfect form, but swimming poorly even if it is strong is only going to go so far.

 

Also, having a friend qoute Becker doesn't make you an expert!

 

You can still swim drills and practice technique while building strength.

 

Conor

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Yep, I have a question PJ. Will try to describe it as best I can. In the vids of the good swimmers it seems as though their recovery arm almost catches up with their leading arm. So leading arm is just entering the water and about 1/4 of the way through the in water part and the recovery arm is almost ready to enter.

Make sense?

Is this correct and how do you go about getting this happening from years of the opposite practice of recovery arm by the hip whilst the leading arm is out in front just about to enter the water.

 

 

careful now, but catch up drill?

 

My current coach is a swimming coach and when I first started she told me I was gliding too much and that my recovery arm is by my hip while the other is out in front, like yours onez. With her if there's one thing we do pretty much none of is catch-up drills.

 

Prior to her the coach was a PT who also did tri coaching. He talked about the glide and we did tons of full and 3/4 catch-up drills. That second vid looks very much like 3/4 catch-up.

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hey,

not sure where that long quote iof info above came from, but i agree and disagree with the long rant above about strength being more important than technique.

 

I have seen dozens of intances where there are big strong guys who work out at the gym, and swim, and who are way slower than a female with very little strength, all because of differences in technique.

 

I hadn't been in a pool in 7 weeks until monday this week, thanks to a broken collar bone. I lost a lot of muscle mass on my right side, and could barely lift my arm above my head. 1st day in the water i was still faster than other triathletes. A perfect example of having technique, and no strength.

 

However, I was buggered after 1km. My shoulders were sore. So yes, strength is important. But not as important as technique.

 

There is less benefit to be gained if you focus on strength. Swimming with bad technique is not just slow, it also does not use the correct and stronger muscles for swimming. You can swim train for strength and get as fast as you can with bad technique, but that is as fast as you can go. If you want to get faster, you will have to start from scratch, with different muscles.

 

Swim strength efforts only as long as you can maintain good form, then get out of the pool, or do a little bit with flippers.

This might mean only 1km easy as a swim session (broken), or doing 8 strokes hard holding good form (to activate more muscles = greater adaptation), then easy. Build up to as far as you can holding good form, and going hard.

 

Pete

Edited by pj81

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hey,

not sure where that long quote iof info above came from, but i agree and disagree with the long rant above about strength being more important than technique.

 

I have seen dozens of intances where there are big strong guys who work out at the gym, and swim, and who are way slower than a female with very little strength, all because of differences in technique.

 

I hadn't been in a pool in 7 weeks until monday this week, thanks to a broken collar bone. I lost a lot of muscle mass on my right side, and could barely lift my arm above my head. 1st day in the water i was still faster than other triathletes. A perfect example of having technique, and no strength.

 

However, I was buggered after 1km. My shoulders were sore. So yes, strength is important. But not as important as technique.

 

There is less benefit to be gained if you focus on strength. Swimming with bad technique is not just slow, it also does not use the correct and stronger muscles for swimming. You can swim train for strength and get as fast as you can with bad technique, but that is as fast as you can go. If you want to get faster, you will have to start from scratch, with different muscles.

 

Swim strength efforts only as long as you can maintain good form, then get out of the pool, or do a little bit with flippers.

This might mean only 1km easy as a swim session (broken), or doing 8 strokes hard holding good form (to activate more muscles = greater adaptation), then easy. Build up to as far as you can holding good form, and going hard.

 

Pete

 

You make some good general points. Of course good technique will be faster than bad technique.

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

You said the guy in the second video has great technique. Yes he does for a pool swimmer. But that style of swimming is irrelevant to the average age grouper. The majority of them will never develop the technique, timing, kick and strength to swim effectively like that in the pool, especially when they start swimming at 30+ yrs old and can only devote 3 swims a week. Now they will definitely never be able to swim effectively like that in the open water with chop and 1000 other people. Unless you are an amazing swimmer, you will go backwards in the open water trying to swim with that 'catch up' style stroke.

 

So my point. Yes the guys in your videos have great technique. No the average age grouper could ever swim effectively like that or it the the most effective way for them to swim. This is where you and so many others lose perspective.

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You make some good general points. Of course good technique will be faster than bad technique.

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

You said the guy in the second video has great technique. Yes he does for a pool swimmer. But that style of swimming is irrelevant to the average age grouper. The majority of them will never develop the technique, timing, kick and strength to swim effectively like that in the pool, especially when they start swimming at 30+ yrs old and can only devote 3 swims a week. Now they will definitely never be able to swim effectively like that in the open water with chop and 1000 other people. Unless you are an amazing swimmer, you will go backwards in the open water trying to swim with that 'catch up' style stroke.

 

So my point. Yes the guys in your videos have great technique. No the average age grouper could ever swim effectively like that or it the the most effective way for them to swim. This is where you and so many others lose perspective.

 

Haha, mate i'm sorry but the average age groupers you are talking about are able to improve their technique. I've seen it. And their race times are quicker too.

 

So please, don't tell people they can't do something.

 

cheers

Pete

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You make some good general points. Of course good technique will be faster than bad technique.

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

You said the guy in the second video has great technique. Yes he does for a pool swimmer. But that style of swimming is irrelevant to the average age grouper. The majority of them will never develop the technique, timing, kick and strength to swim effectively like that in the pool, especially when they start swimming at 30+ yrs old and can only devote 3 swims a week. Now they will definitely never be able to swim effectively like that in the open water with chop and 1000 other people. Unless you are an amazing swimmer, you will go backwards in the open water trying to swim with that 'catch up' style stroke.

 

So my point. Yes the guys in your videos have great technique. No the average age grouper could ever swim effectively like that or it the the most effective way for them to swim. This is where you and so many others lose perspective.

 

So to paraphrase, you will never get good technique, so don't bother trying, build up your strength instead?

 

I'm tipping most people doing ironman will continue in the sport for some time, at that distance or others. Do you honestly think that a swimmer, even a late starter cannot improve their technique and efficiency by training 3+ sessions a week for several years?

 

I know you'll answer yes, of course they can, but strength is a better way of making gains in your swim times. I agree, you need to be swimming strong to swim long and fast, but you can focus on strength building whilst improving technique.

 

Better to improve the stroke first, then develop strength.

 

Conor

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Haha, mate i'm sorry but the average age groupers you are talking about are able to improve their technique. I've seen it. And their race times are quicker too.

 

So please, don't tell people they can't do something.

 

cheers

Pete

 

To clarify.

 

Yes everyone can and should improve their technique.

 

Your videos (2nd video and the Phelps) are not what the average age grouper should aspire to. Too much reliance on kick, glide and catch up style swimming. Unless they become very good swimmers.. e.g. sub 4.45 400m they will go backwards in the open water.

 

Yes people can attain good technique and should aspire to it.

 

But the 'catch up' style technique you promote is not the most effective way for them to improve.

 

From my very first post I have said this. I have never said technique doesn't matter.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71CN4yNMgtY this is still good technique and is a lot more achievable to the average age grouper and A LOT more effective in the open water.

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To clarify.

 

Yes everyone can and should improve their technique.

 

Your videos (2nd video and the Phelps) are not what the average age grouper should aspire to. Too much reliance on kick, glide and catch up style swimming. Unless they become very good swimmers.. e.g. sub 4.45 400m they will go backwards in the open water.

 

Yes people can attain good technique and should aspire to it.

 

But the 'catch up' style technique you promote is not the most effective way for them to improve.

 

From my very first post I have said this. I have never said technique doesn't matter.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71CN4yNMgtY this is still good technique and is a lot more achievable to the average age grouper and A LOT more effective in the open water.

 

hahaha, thanks for the laugh! that video is funny. How you can post a video of someone swimming a world record, going flat out, and say that is what they should swim like for a triathlon....

 

I posted the video of Phelps as something people should be aiming towards. Of course no one is going to swim exactly like that, but the problem is that people already swim like the janet evans video you posted and they are going backwards.

 

The people on youtube who commented on the video disagree with you...

 

Reactor, have you ever taught anyone swimming? Have you ever coached a triahtlete in the water?

 

Cheers

Pete

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hahaha, thanks for the laugh! that video is funny. How you can post a video of someone swimming a world record, going flat out, and say that is what they should swim like for a triathlon....

 

I posted the video of Phelps as something people should be aiming towards. Of course no one is going to swim exactly like that, but the problem is that people already swim like the janet evans video you posted and they are going backwards.

 

The people on youtube who commented on the video disagree with you...

 

Reactor, have you ever taught anyone swimming? Have you ever coached a triahtlete in the water?

 

Cheers

Pete

 

Haha mate I knew you would say that about the world record etc. The mechanics of her stroke won't change dramatically though if she slows down. Her kick rate will slow, and her turnover will slow, but she will still be grabbing water early and catching strongly. I wish I could find a video of her not winning or setting a WR.....

 

People already swim like Evans are going backwards?? Who?? They are also some of the best swimmers in Triathlon ..... Moffatt, Luxford, Snowsill, Walton, Amberger, Every ITU russian, Stanard....None of these great triathlon swimmers swim with slow catch up style technique you promote from the 2nd Video.

 

You still haven't said why what I am saying is so ineffective and why what you say is so amazing.

 

The 4 people who commented on youtube? Who are they? They must be experts....

 

I've coached, seen plenty of people coached etc etc just as you have. I don't see why this takes away from the validity of either argument. If you wanna go on that, well I didn't come up with these ideas on triathlete swimming. Maybe you should argue with the Suttons, Waltons and Beckers of the world.

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What is more importent- tecnique or strength :lol:

 

Its a bit like asking what came first- the chicken or the egg :lol:

 

They are both of equal importence for developing a faster IM swim time.

 

The thing about swimming is that the faster you swim the greater the resistance of the water, so the stronger you need to be. Technique helps to lower this resistance as well as increasing the efficiency of each stroke.

 

To improve in cycling you work on strength and efficiency, as well as reducing wind resistence by becoming more aerodynamic- they are all importent aspects to focus on in improving cycling times- what makes swim training any different.

Edited by sunnygirl

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If strength was more important than technique - why do old guys and little kids whip me in the pool? It isn't because they are stronger - it is because they have better technique.

 

I see the old guy gets in the pool with his massive beer gut and then just slices through the water - or the ten year old girl probably lucky to weigh 30 kgs, just goes and punches out a super quick 50.

 

Where do they sit in this argument?

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Haha mate I knew you would say that about the world record etc. The mechanics of her stroke won't change dramatically though if she slows down. Her kick rate will slow, and her turnover will slow, but she will still be grabbing water early and catching strongly. I wish I could find a video of her not winning or setting a WR.....

 

People already swim like Evans are going backwards?? Who?? They are also some of the best swimmers in Triathlon ..... Moffatt, Luxford, Snowsill, Walton, Amberger, Every ITU russian, Stanard....None of these great triathlon swimmers swim with slow catch up style technique you promote from the 2nd Video.

 

You still haven't said why what I am saying is so ineffective and why what you say is so amazing.

 

The 4 people who commented on youtube? Who are they? They must be experts....

 

I've coached, seen plenty of people coached etc etc just as you have. I don't see why this takes away from the validity of either argument. If you wanna go on that, well I didn't come up with these ideas on triathlete swimming. Maybe you should argue with the Suttons, Waltons and Beckers of the world.

 

Mate, i don't need to argue against you, you did it yourself. You quoted all these top swimmers as your proof of your technique ideas being better (would be great if you could get some proof on how they swim, or endorsement from them), and even if they do swim like Janet Evans (which is debatable), this topic is about average age groupers. Not guys going flat out.

 

My first post had all the videos and explanation of why i believe what i believe.

 

And I also disagree about Janet Evans stroke not changing when she swims easy. But this is just my opinion. Guess we'll never know the truth.

 

It's been fun, but i think we aren't making progress anymore, so see you all later.

All the best to everyone trying to improve your swim, whichever technique you choose is best for you.

Cheers

Pete

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So yes, strength is important. But not as important as technique.

 

It's good to see one of the best Ironman swimmers in the world come on here and straighten out a few annonymous experts :lol:

 

But as soon as you posted those videos you lost me. Sorry but the average age grouper, especially a 60+ IM swimmer, will never ever be able to swim like the guys in the videos you posted. Half of them wouldn't be able to understand what you wrote, let alone apply it th their swimming.

 

I am a 60+ triathlete who has improved his 100m swim time (just the distance I chose to chart progress) by 5 sec between the age of 58 and 61. This is not easy as I have been competing for 25yrs and tried most ideas. :lol:

 

I did this by focussing on technique only, and only swam three times a week. I have a coach in Brisbane, but every time Pete was in Brisbane, he was chasing my Harley around a few flat roads we know of at 60kph. But I was taking advantage of his expertise in the water (which he demonstrates every time a gun goes off)

 

I've never met Reactor1, but if I ever do, he might be able to help me improve further, one guy in my cat. beat me out of the water in Hawaii last October, I don't want that to happen this year :D

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Guest Animal

Just to clarify - the word strength.

 

It is a topic of great debate because none of what we are talking about actually relates to "strength" as defined physiologically as the maximal force you can apply - i.e. one maximum rep.

 

So confusion then arises when people use the term talking about an endurance activity, such as "swimmers need to get stronger" or just work on their "strength". That does not mean (and I don't think anyone intends it to mean) that swimmers need to work in the gym at increasing their muscular strength. I take it to mean stamina, endurance, muscular endurance etc.

 

Swimming with a band (tether in Melbourne :lol:) involves greater resistance then normal, but for anyone of reasonable fitness, they can do enough repetitions for it not to be strength limited, but again, fitness/endurance limited.

 

Swimming is not about being "strong", not for triathlon distances anyway, it is about the combination of technique and fitness. Neither in isolation, work on both all the time. If swimming was about strength then why can so many 13 to 14 year old girls swim so much faster then grown men with rippling bulging muscles that do triathlon this sport I love :lol::)

 

Some people still want to keep that word "strength" in all these discussions, but it does lead to the confusion. It is used in the cycling discussions erroneously too, but most are used to it now. So whilst I am not fussed if people want to use the term, for those that are new to the area or trying to learn and can be confusing.

 

As to what is the best technique in open water. Well, I'll let others fight that one out. I've got thoughts, and I think they work, they do for me at least, I get out of the water with people who are minutes ahead of me in the pool - but it might not be all down to technique - it could be that Animal instict of racing for food!! :D:):D

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It's good to see one of the best Ironman swimmers in the world come on here and straighten out a few annonymous experts :lol:

 

Why can't people argue on the merit of an idea, not on who's putting it forward? I guess Ian Thorpe is the best swim coach in the world? Play the ball not the man!

 

I've never met Reactor1, but if I ever do, he might be able to help me improve further, one guy in my cat. beat me out of the water in Hawaii last October, I don't want that to happen this year :lol:

 

If people could see through the fog, they would understand this hasn't been about strength vs technique, but one style of technique vs another style of technique. I have explain numerous times why I believe a certain way is the most effective and the limitations on the classic catch up style swimming advocated by Pete and many others. No one has actually addressed what I am saying, or why what I am putting forward is so wrong!

Instead of arguing back and forth on videos of WR holders or how such and such swims, it would be great if you guys countered this 'anonymous expert's' arguments on the limitations of catch up style swimming for age group triathletes.

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More Sutto speak...

 

Take what you want, chuck out the rest.

 

More than one way to train, boys. This is but one that I have known to be very effective. ;-)

 

Forgot I had all this stuff saved in my PC.

 

Btw...Doc is Sutto. Like him or loathe him, it's training methods under discussion here;

 

Matt

 

 

"Why big pull buoy? to get as high in the water as a wet suit.

we all so use it for effecting the stroke also .

many hidden mysteries of the paddles pullbouy band .

 

you can plow up an down a pool with paddles with no thought and pop times .

but you take em off and if you dont have a good technique

you go nowhere .

so they are very false economy .

just as i would not put tyr catalysts on a good swimmer.

they do not work for a good swimmer at all .

but if you dont swim 55 for a guy and 60 for a female .

then you will have no problems with catalyst paddles at all .

so i think this covers most of triathlon .

as sugar states the shape tracks the stroke for you .

do enuff of them and you will pick up

the motor pattern , or atleast have your arms moving in a more efficient line that what you have now .

paddles

depends on what your trying to promote ,

they are nothing but a tool in my view to provide an outcome that a swimmer wants to do but cant get it with thought .

the paddles pull bouy can provide those movements with out thought

 

Keat: What sort of paddles are you using?

Most people on the team are encouraged to use TYR catalyst paddles, as Doc says they promote a correct stroke in terms of placement and pull.

As a 'weaker' swimmer, I personally don't overthink the stroke, just put the arms in and go. One thing I am conscious of though, is finishing my stroke on my thigh. But I guess everyone is different and has different parts to focus on in the stroke.

 

Following doc´s advice , my swimming group of triathletes are using TYR Catalysts paddles . The worst guys have improved their stroke , the better ones have improved their power (sorry ,no power talk here,i mean their times).

 

Now the rest of the freelance teammates (no-need-coach), incredulous , are asking for these paddles .

 

a very good question ,

so i will answer personally , as i think age group level athletes doing mostly wetsuit races.

could do most of their swim training in a wet suit , and improve dramatically .

obviously when your in a hot climate, or in a very hot indoor pool .

over heating will happen after 10 to 15 min .

but if you have an olympic out door pool of around 20 to 24 c

you can do wet suit training and it is a major benefit .

in the other circumstances over the years , i have had pros

do the first set in the wetsuit then hop out and practice taking it off very quickly .

doing intervals with your wetsuit , can enhance your swim ability , to be more efficient in a wets suit .

 

we do a lot of pull to compensate for wet suit .

but to actually train in it does give strength to the recovery muscles ,that have to deal with the restriction of the rubber

it is a valid stress very much under scored in triathlon .

so, dont let others put you off doing it

one last tip ,

it doesnt make it easier , in fact , it will tire you out much quicker , and so i have had plenty say on their recovery day we go swim in the lake and just get the feel of the wet suit

only to be amazed that the next swim day they felt lethargic and very tired in the arms .

so ,

if most or all of your races , is a wet suit swim .

dont wait to go to a lake , get it on and do your pool sets at least once a week .

it will be a positive to your tri swim perfomance

you can bet on that

 

taken out of context people

you use band only with out a mother big pull bouy if your an average swimmer , and it will kill you ,

physically and then give you major shoulder problems .

even when we use band , we kick with it , for the average swimmers

or use big pull bouy

these you cant get , so my resolution for my next trip , is to make a proper pull bouy for average swimmers the rubbish speedo and areana and other mobs put out

is criminal

 

Doc,

 

I have consistently been smack on 60 mins for my IM swims, so am I correct in understanding that when we use bands, we should use a pullbuoy too?

Doc: with paddles

yes , if longer than 50 m also yes .

but its got to be in context of the training , thats the key

 

Bek Keat: Perfect sounds just like my training method too funny that..?Funny also after 10 years of swim squad training with some of the' so called' best coaches my swim didnt improve a second.Now thanks to Doc and my new technique no kick and lots of strength, I am swimming faster than ever before! So congratulations we can share that swim feeling together!

 

i know what the mind set is /

unfortuneately , people try to teach technique to people with no skill level at the exercise wether it be

swimming or running

or biking .

so they , pull out their old level 2 instruction manual and apply it to mr average jo .

he may hold it for 25 m in swim , maybe 1km on the run , possible 10km , on the bike .

then it falls apart and they sink ,dawdle and ride like a pussy for long periods of time .

your problem ,

is you have ran into Stephen (Bayliss) who is passionate on this topic

as he is the case study .

he was in the british federation bullshit , sorry but we are a fact related web site here .

after much training and stroke work , he was released

with the words you cant swim well enuff and your technigue not good enuff , to be a pro triathlete

so into the scrap heap for you

next , please .

so he journey mans around swimming in the 3rd pacjk in short course , moves to long and is in the 2nd pack and goes ok .

links up with sutto

and we watch him trying his high elbows breathing both sides , stretching out counting strokes,

wiggling like a worm on a fishing rod as he tries to do perfect technique .

 

i get all excited because i watch him run and his natural gait makes me think

hey this man got a bit of skill , these swim coaches have just killed it in the swim .

so i say , i can fix this

"stephen you willing to change ? yep , do you care how you look ?, nope i just want to get out in the first group .

yeh you say that now but , your a triathlete , how you look is very important .

no coach, whos style do you want me to copy ".

well back when i first meet him , the australian team was kickin the english cricket team .

and the damage was being done by glen mc gath .

so

i said "stephen we are going with the ooooh aarrrrr mc grath action ."

but coach he is a cricketer , not a swimmer , yes , stephen very perceptive of you but he is the best

and i think your swimming fits his stroke .

we going to go with the strait one arm breathing on one side , and stop trying to feel the water , stop all that stretching out crap and stop counting your strokes

and use your natural turn over , that you have in the run ."

shit , seems strange but i ll give it a go

and stephen did , and it got better and better , he soon was in the first pack in ironman ,

then he soon leading the swims and every body could see who it was because of his bowling arm , every body knows where bayliss is .

now bare with me we getting to the moral of the story .

stephen was now not swimming 55 min but now hits 47 min for the swims but theres more .

he can now get out not in the 3rd pack but the 1st pack in short races .

12 months ago ,

he went and in front of his old bosses who said "stephen your not good enuff f........ of"f,

he beat all the young itu brits out of the water and existed with the guy that promotes himself as brits best richard stennard , stephen all over him like a rash . he then got knocked or something off the bike

but here comes the punch line

he has transcended 2 packs jumped three levels

and the old boys who got rid of him said

gees stephen , " you know if you could work on your technique a bit , you looki bloody awful , you could be the best swimmer in britain "

you see they still dont get it .

you still dont get it .

you cant make a silk purse out of a pigs ear .

but you can make a pigs ear carry more than a silk purse , if thats what your looking for .

happy for you input .

stephen has just learnt

to average skilled swimmers

forget technique , teach movement , and then repeat , repeat repeat .

movement will take you foreward

technique will take average joe down .

 

hi

joe has hit similiar numbers that work for the pros

swimming

a stroke per mtr is fine

usually we are reading about cadence and distance per stroke of 36 to 40

for the best swimmers

well i watched a lot of the best swimmers

and 6" 6 grant hacket is a big guy with a long stroke

his rythem was no lower than 43 and when he turned it on up to 46

keiran perkins was the same only a around the 46

mark more than not

yet he stroke slowed down when he was sprinting , all true

he had rythem and the turn over was that

i had a female go 8m25 long vcourse back in 1981

she would 2 beat and hit 50 strokes per 50 m

i had another who was not as talented

hold 8min32 was about 46 kg and took 72 , i kidd you not

its a personal thing .

same as if your 6 " plus running 100 cadence is not going to suit your anatonomy.

 

 

Hi

I am swimming more than ever with paddles and pull bouy. Have 3 swims a week, 1 is without paddles/bouy with short hard intervall`s (typically 10x100 + 10x50 + 10x25), 1 is with paddles/bouy only (typically 8-10x400) and 1 is a long 4500-5500m swim with 50/50 with/without paddles/bouy.

But I seem to strugle to get my intensity and HR up when i swim with paddles. Is that right? I guess it is since its strength work? Or am I doing something wrong? Or am I not strong enough yet? Or are my paddles to small/big? Any advice?

 

Doc: and thats what we are after!"

Edited by MJK

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It's good to see one of the best Ironman swimmers in the world come on here and straighten out a few annonymous experts :lol:

 

+1

 

I've been going to PJs stroke correction squad when every I can make it and am slowly correcting my stroke to the way PJ suggests. It's made a huge inprovement in my swimming both in open water and in the pool. Gone from a non swimmer 2.5 yrs ago to completing 2.7K open water swims this year. Thanks PJ.

 

Don't know enough about swimming to join in the rest of the discussion :lol:

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that is why you suck in a race .

legs do not propell you , the very best swimmers , only count 10% from actual leg propulsion

they are used for body lift ,

with said cheat suit whoops i mean wet suit .

lift is taken care of .

so , practicing getting your arms fit and strong , is one of the reasons we work with the paddles

also for the lees blessed swimmers , i read ,

and miss cocco and bella , are very blessed ,

so lets say , swim challenged ,

with the right sized paddle , and pull bouy , they will take more arm strokes with better mechanics than

if they just swim normally with no gear on .

so 2nd point

insurance policy , against dropped elbows and wrists , and then repeating the bad movements over and over again , thus ingraining bad technique

3rd if you swimming in a pack

you have people swimming over and around the legs ,. some good pool swimmers , dont fair well in the big packs if they are leg dominated purists

as once the legs are taken out , it changes their stroke , and they are stranded with less feel for the water thus lose speed .

so, yes , i am answering , our friends note thru yours hope that is ok

miss coco has a technique that does get her hands under her body , and thus , me saying the swordfish

is technicolly not so bad ,

she is very right about swimming is tricky .

even tricks her ,

she thinks her swim didnot improve much ,

however it improved tremndously , but in her case it did not show physically in time in the swim leg ,however

her bike leg was helped tremendously , by the improvement and her over all strength for the whole distance was a very big step foreward

pundits say

your ride improved so much , YES it did and the swim contributed atleast 30% to the impovement

triathlon is about one sport . with 3 sub sports .

conclusion

we use gear for the swim challenged ,

they use it 60% more than the good swimmers in our group

females use it 50% more than men in our group .

why?

there lack of natural strength .

how can you use it to help ,

as erika said

its a tricky thing ,

need to see , what stroke you have , now

to prescribe ,

you have size 8 shoe , terrible to senf you an 11, over the internet .

 

its diffferent STROKES for different FOLKS

hope this helps

 

muffin man nailed it , for me .

however , we both know . its not practical , for you ironman people .

we have switched our emphasis a whole lot over time .

crusty swim coach , moved with the sport ,

there is little swimming in triathlon today

short course a joke , long course ,

is not much better but a tired 3.800m

can kill your race period .

my man ,i would love to further advise ,

but we got shysters from evry where charging copious ammounts of money for info , that is down right scandelous , i am sure muffin man can , confirm , but american age groupers fall for it ,

while dear ole doc , gets banged up from forum to forum , for his no brain ideas .

my problem , well the dinasours athletes keep winnin things while the white coat brigade , keep on talkin a good game .

you stay here and you will get more common sence , than all of them put together ,

but , the boss will kill me , that we run the best team in the world he pays for it , and

i am online coaching thru the forum ,

while we struggle for online coaching clients

while

the others are overflowing , and are handing out total crap .

or ponce method , or is that pose .

haha , better not get started ,

 

you start with same paddles as all the other girls .

your a big unit , you have no excuse for puny paddles other than you a little bit shy of some pain.

 

your run does not help you bike or swim at aall .

take that tip .

 

peter reed had it right ,

the difference between peter reid and lother , the swim

lother lazy hate to train in the pool .

with the black cheat suit on no problem

but open water

no suit and ruff swim ,

he was gone before he put his bike shoes on ,

just like karyn thurig .

you cant get by with a very weak out of condition swim in hawaaii it comes back to bite you

 

Hi Ya,

 

I came from absolutely no swim back ground at all, literally the most I did was play tea party in a little pool as a kid and inner tube in a ditch.

I did my first swim stroke in a triathlon club in 1999. I never learned technique, just starting swimming with the group and followed everybody's lead, slowly over each month I moved up from very last in the slowest lane to faster lanes. But I never was taught anything about swimming. I finally learned a flip turn, sort of, in 2005.

As time went by people starting teaching me "technique", but it was too late, the pattern I was using was ingrained. To top that off I could never truely "feel" anything in the water, people would give me "tips" and I had NO idea.

I worked relentlessly on the cords in the mirror, in the gym and in the pool. I swam 20-30km per week for 2 years. I even joined a high level ITU squad to try to get faster, I just got really tired.

The lowest point I think I hit was swimming 30/week, plus cords, plus gym, then raced a very important race to me and wasn't one second faster swimming, I was 4th in that IM and I ran faster and bike faster than everybody in front of me that day, but I swam 15min slower than the girls in front of me. I couldn't get in the pool for 3 weeks after that cause I was so heart broken.

 

Then I met Brett. And like the article says ,and I tell people all the time, it was such a breath of fresh air!! I have always been pretty strong. I rode competitive show jumping horses from age 9--25. So I had a naturally strong back.

Brett could see I was very dissheartened with swimming and he gave me back some hope.

The training:

not so much volume

more small swims ie: 3x 1500m throughout the day but very specific work.

NO SLOW DRILL WORK!! Thank GOD!!

Shorter faster reps where I could maintain my stroke and swim fast before I got tired.

Paddles!

 

That's all I'll let out of the bag. He can share more if he would like

 

I spent 6 weeks in Thialand with him and then went to an IM and swam nearly 6min faster than the last time I did an IM

 

Lengths were 25m-many many many 25's

Toy's were paddles and band and bouy.

 

And for those asking if I ever tried video feedback, YES I did several times. And I had a good freind who was a syncro olympic coach swim under water under neath me putting her hand in places so I HAD to do the right technique. I treid EVERYTHING!! I wanted to swim faster. But mates....it was when doc told me to stop worrying about it and use what I got when I started to swim faster.

 

Cheers,

Marilyn

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I dont have the attention span to read the very long posts, but something my swim coach said the other night (I wish sometimes I record his talks as they are useful, simple, and stick in the mind) , theres so many ways to swim freestyle, the loaping strokes, the open water choppy style, straight arm etc. Strength VS technique or not, you need to work out what stroke suits you. I swim straight arm for sprints and run my outboard motor with my feet till my legs are jelly, but lengthen out the distance and the stroke changes as does the kick. Girls in my squad that swim the 5 and 10km's have very little change between their sprint (not that they really do) and their distance stroke. One has a very high turn over of arms, the others seem to stretch out. I've only ever done half IM but in those I'll change through out the swim from high rating to get going, to a long powerful stroke then back to a medium sustainable rating and power.

 

One thing I would say for everyone to try, get out the video camera and have a mate film you swim. Do this in a few ways, do a few sprints to see what you do under presure, and then (if its a good mate) do a longer swim, and have them film at different parts through it to see what you do when you fatigue.

 

I will also say I am not 100% happy with the huge reccomendations for people to use paddles. If you have bad technique and you use paddles you can over load through the rotator cuffs. If you must use them.... do so sparingly and in a set where you are concentrating on what your arms are doing.

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Swimming with a band (tether in Melbourne :lol:)

Nah, they're called bands here also, except that we're tougher and tie a brick to them!!! :lol:

 

Good thread.

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Guest Rentakill
but we got shysters from evry where charging copious ammounts of money for info , that is down right scandelous , i am sure muffin man can , confirm , but american age groupers fall for it ,

 

I couldnt be bothered reading through all the illiterate ranting, but I think Matt is quoting Brett Sutton, you could paraphrase the above with Australian age groupers as well.

 

My thoughts.... which I will preface with the fact I am one of the lucky ones that could swim without trying too hard...

 

Matt (MJK not Parky) is a good athlete didnt you do 9.20 ish up at Port this year mate? with kids life and job?; (hey Parky no offence mate, you are a good athlete too!)

 

Parky wasnt much chop as a swimmer and did the work and realised a 52xx swim is possible which was an amazing and very impressive achievement; which demonstrates the committment of Parky and the coaching abilities of the coach@;

 

Classic form often means four fifths of f-k all in open water swimming and kicking is a waste of time unless it is to kick someone in the head to get them off your feet;

 

Paddles work, and not cruising along with them actually doing efforts with them;

 

If all you hour plus swimmers got out ten mintues quicker you migth find that lofty goal of a 9.30 ish time isnt all that lofty at all as you could ride legally and still go much much faster in a big group.

 

I might also add extra curricular activities such as surfing do help your swimming, havent been swimming at all but have started surfing a lot more again since my op and jumped in and did a set yesterday (after being humiliated at the 000 biathlon a few weeks ago) and surprised myself how much quicker I was just from surfing and the strength it gives you.

Edited by Rentakill

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Guest Animal

+ 1 for band and brick - or just harden up and grow a forest on your legs like an Animal :lol::), causes enough drag to make you really stong! :lol::)

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I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be repeating what's here however I can describe my experience.

 

I am an OK swimmer (0:53) at Port but a below average cyclist and atrocius runner (0:55 for 10km if I push myself, AND, not tacked onto the back of an oly tri)

 

I have always swum in squads and I find my swimming improves by doing at least 2 x 1.5hr sessions a week. Oh, and get off the piss :-)

 

The key to improving your swimming is 200m repetitions whilst under the pump. 400m reps are very good too but if you want to improve quickly for a race, smash out the 200 sets. Do 8 or 10 in a set at least weekly.

 

I am 43 and started doing tri last year. I had zeeeeeero bike and run base. Had a go at Port and made it but my running is abysmal, so I am going to apply the same theory to running as swimming:

* I need to do more of, and vary the intensity of, my runs

* do hills

* do fartleks

* do fast 5k and slow 20k runs, and slow 5k and faster 10k runs

* mostly, run more and push myself, or get pushed by other, faster runners, or get in a run squad

 

I think that if I run train at the same distances at the same speeds my running will not improve - I know this for fact from swimming so I can't see why it would be different.

 

So, original poster: get into a squad, mix it up and do 200 reps!!

 

(Edit for speling erors)

Edited by nelso

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Classic form often means four fifths of f-k all in open water swimming and kicking is a waste of time unless it is to kick someone in the head to get them off your feet;

 

I hate it when people kick in the swim with massive enormous feet. Maybe that's coz one such swimmer broke my finger at Port IM last year!!!! :D Oh my god that hurt! Have any of you guys ever tried swimming with goggles and tears??? :lol:

 

:lol:

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I couldnt be bothered reading through all the illiterate ranting, but I think Matt is quoting Brett Sutton, you could paraphrase the above with Australian age groupers as well.

 

My thoughts.... which I will preface with the fact I am one of the lucky ones that could swim without trying too hard...

 

Matt (MJK not Parky) is a good athlete didnt you do 9.20 ish up at Port this year mate? with kids life and job?; (hey Parky no offence mate, you are a good athlete too!)

 

Parky wasnt much chop as a swimmer and did the work and realised a 52xx swim is possible which was an amazing and very impressive achievement; which demonstrates the committment of Parky and the coaching abilities of the coach@;

 

Classic form often means four fifths of f-k all in open water swimming and kicking is a waste of time unless it is to kick someone in the head to get them off your feet;

 

Paddles work, and not cruising along with them actually doing efforts with them;

 

If all you hour plus swimmers got out ten mintues quicker you migth find that lofty goal of a 9.30 ish time isnt all that lofty at all as you could ride legally and still go much much faster in a big group.

 

I might also add extra curricular activities such as surfing do help your swimming, havent been swimming at all but have started surfing a lot more again since my op and jumped in and did a set yesterday (after being humiliated at the 000 biathlon a few weeks ago) and surprised myself how much quicker I was just from surfing and the strength it gives you.

 

 

Yes that is Sutto speak...if you can understand his English. :-)

 

I totally agree with Jabbs and apart from using the above method myself have seen tonnes of supporting evidence. I reiterate that it is not the ONLY way, though.

 

I used to train alot with Grant Giles back in the day, trained next to each other in the same pool, he NEVER swam without a buoy (he would sink if he did!) and used to belt pad/buoy sets left right and centre, made his athletes do the same. If he was not using the buoy then he was in the open water with the full wettie on a few time prior to a big race. At the time I thought that he was taking the soft option. I'm sure I was easily faster than him in the pool without equipment, actually I think at the time Gilesy would have been flat out breaking 5:00 for 400m short course without a wetsuit which is not fast by pro standards. But stuffed if I got with 2-mins of him on IM race day once he had that QR suit on. He cained me every race in the rubber. Wetsuit swimming is a different animal.

 

Which brings me to another point, and related to Jabb's 'don't kick' quote. FYI Jabbs, Monty (Mark Montgomery) in the US, a terrific wettie swimmer (not so in the pool) wrote a great piece on this once in agreement.

 

I read Emma Snowsill saying once you want to get a wettie that has as thick legs as possible, aka the next to 5mm all over QR suits that we used to have (Paul O'Brien smoked everyone in one, then again he could wear anything and do same), Gilesy wore one (he even bought an extra one to keep in storage in case they stopped making them I guess). I still wear mine from 1997 with 4325 wettie glue patches on it, it looks ridiculous and people laugh at me and think I'm a poor man. Same deal for the old 'lightfoot' full suits. Thick as hell, but faster cause the legs are up and in position already and hence no need to kick (much). Gilesy kicked bugger all, same for wetsuit freak Spot Anderson. I'm looking at a new suit soon but to me the entry level one's might be more appealing with the focus on buoyancy versus flexibility.

 

Remember Guy Wilding, Jabbs? Crikey, he was a deadset brick, couldn't swim to save himself. But put him in the 5mm Wing wetsuit and he wasn't too far behind. Up-tempo stroke and strong, chopping in a bit short like a surf stroke aka a few of the Shire buoys I think of over the years (Rick Pallister, Chris Southwell, Jase Harper, Will Carroll)

 

As for the surfing helping, 100% agree, I used to surf alot, and Mitch Dean, Spot, Gilesy are/were all good surfers. When I stopped surfing my swim fell away. My missus never swam her whole life except if her leg-rope broke but she grew up in the US Scholastic surfing system. After just 12 months of swimming she was under the hour at Ironman and reckons it's a very low energy cost even for her, just rolls the arms over and goes with the moving water. I don't think she is even capable of going anaerobic but dang strong with that rubber on. She could not even make a set of 10 x 100m on a 1:40 send off in the pool without equipment!

 

It's a topic for another discussion but yes Jabbs 9:19 at IM this year and a great race year for me in general off my lowest volumes ever the last 18 months. Like most of us I was working lots, not sleeping enough and busy with three young sons. I managed one 15 hour 'peak' week in the last 6 weeks and just two rides over 3 hours. But if short on time and/or not willing/able to give your life over to traditional 'Ironman Training' (that's me :-)) then your only option is to 'punch harder' in those reduced training hours to get your loading and concern yourself with being really, really FIT in my view. Shouldn't have said any of this cause now I'm going to get the 'he's got heaps of base' line. :-). My classic 10-12hrs a week I roll out 85% of the year is loaded with tempo which, it might shock people, is still 'aerobic'. Anyway, this is totally off topic and should be posted in another section but might be of 'mental' hope to some of the folks that are getting put off by the mega ironman training volume threads.

 

Mine is also not the BEST way. Just a great way to make the most of a compromised situation, I believe, or a situation that necessitates a bit more balance. Of course, there is a price. :-) As usual, though, if you don't pace yourself in the race then nothing will save you. That's one of the hardest things to teach.

 

In regards to swimming...I swim 97% of my 10K a week with the buoy/paddles(band). I would not break 1:15 for 100m or 5:20 for 400m flat-out without equipment anymore. The swim was obviously short at IMOz but I think my 49-something swim at Ironman in the rubber might outperform folks with much better pool times than me. And no, I don't swim hard in the race. On my training volume, I can't afford to. :-)

 

Since I focused more on training this way I started to like racing in a wetsuit instead of hating it. My arms used to fall off in the full suit. No longer.

 

Hope there's a thing or two for someone in here that might help.

 

Matt

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Yes that is Sutto speak...if you can understand his English. :-)

 

I totally agree with Jabbs and apart from using the above method myself have seen tonnes of supporting evidence. I reiterate that it is not the ONLY way, though.

 

I used to train alot with Grant Giles back in the day, trained next to each other in the same pool, he NEVER swam without a buoy (he would sink if he did!) and used to belt pad/buoy sets left right and centre, made his athletes do the same. If he was not using the buoy then he was in the open water with the full wettie on a few time prior to a big race. At the time I thought that he was taking the soft option. I'm sure I was easily faster than him in the pool without equipment, actually I think at the time Gilesy would have been flat out breaking 5:00 for 400m short course without a wetsuit which is not fast by pro standards. But stuffed if I got with 2-mins of him on IM race day once he had that QR suit on. He cained me every race in the rubber. Wetsuit swimming is a different animal.

 

Which brings me to another point, and related to Jabb's 'don't kick' quote. FYI Jabbs, Monty (Mark Montgomery) in the US, a terrific wettie swimmer (not so in the pool) wrote a great piece on this once in agreement.

 

I read Emma Snowsill saying once you want to get a wettie that has as thick legs as possible, aka the next to 5mm all over QR suits that we used to have (Paul O'Brien smoked everyone in one, then again he could wear anything and do same), Gilesy wore one (he even bought an extra one to keep in storage in case they stopped making them I guess). I still wear mine from 1997 with 4325 wettie glue patches on it, it looks ridiculous and people laugh at me and think I'm a poor man. Same deal for the old 'lightfoot' full suits. Thick as hell, but faster cause the legs are up and in position already and hence no need to kick (much). Gilesy kicked bugger all, same for wetsuit freak Spot Anderson. I'm looking at a new suit soon but to me the entry level one's might be more appealing with the focus on buoyancy versus flexibility.

 

Remember Guy Wilding, Jabbs? Crikey, he was a deadset brick, couldn't swim to save himself. But put him in the 5mm Wing wetsuit and he wasn't too far behind. Up-tempo stroke and strong, chopping in a bit short like a surf stroke aka a few of the Shire buoys I think of over the years (Rick Pallister, Chris Southwell, Jase Harper, Will Carroll)

 

As for the surfing helping, 100% agree, I used to surf alot, and Mitch Dean, Spot, Gilesy are/were all good surfers. When I stopped surfing my swim fell away. My missus never swam her whole life except if her leg-rope broke but she grew up in the US Scholastic surfing system. After just 12 months of swimming she was under the hour at Ironman and reckons it's a very low energy cost even for her, just rolls the arms over and goes with the moving water. I don't think she is even capable of going anaerobic but dang strong with that rubber on. She could not even make a set of 10 x 100m on a 1:40 send off in the pool without equipment!

 

It's a topic for another discussion but yes Jabbs 9:19 at IM this year and a great race year for me in general off my lowest volumes ever the last 18 months. Like most of us I was working lots, not sleeping enough and busy with three young sons. I managed one 15 hour 'peak' week in the last 6 weeks and just two rides over 3 hours. But if short on time and/or not willing/able to give your life over to traditional 'Ironman Training' (that's me :-)) then your only option is to 'punch harder' in those reduced training hours to get your loading and concern yourself with being really, really FIT in my view. Shouldn't have said any of this cause now I'm going to get the 'he's got heaps of base' line. :-). My classic 10-12hrs a week I roll out 85% of the year is loaded with tempo which, it might shock people, is still 'aerobic'. Anyway, this is totally off topic and should be posted in another section but might be of 'mental' hope to some of the folks that are getting put off by the mega ironman training volume threads.

 

Mine is also not the BEST way. Just a great way to make the most of a compromised situation, I believe, or a situation that necessitates a bit more balance. Of course, there is a price. :-) As usual, though, if you don't pace yourself in the race then nothing will save you. That's one of the hardest things to teach.

 

In regards to swimming...I swim 97% of my 10K a week with the buoy/paddles(band). I would not break 1:15 for 100m or 5:20 for 400m flat-out without equipment anymore. The swim was obviously short at IMOz but I think my 49-something swim at Ironman in the rubber might outperform folks with much better pool times than me. And no, I don't swim hard in the race. On my training volume, I can't afford to. :-)

 

Since I focused more on training this way I started to like racing in a wetsuit instead of hating it. My arms used to fall off in the full suit. No longer.

 

Hope there's a thing or two for someone in here that might help.

 

Matt

What happens when there is no wet suit, Kona

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I might add that Matt is over 40 :lol:

 

One of the things Matt has been really good at over the twenty plus years I have known him is his ability to pace himself. Always to perfection.

 

You also take that on board with your intelligent training paces.

 

You are dead right about wetsuit swimming being a different animal. You need to learn how to swim fast in a wetsuit. It takes time and practice.

 

Spot Anderson and I race each other all year and often have the fastest times for the swim overall. The blokes we match or beat would absolutely towel us in the pool. The combination of working together ( I take the first line to the first can flat out, he takes over and navigates us in without goggles), extensive open water experience and wetsuit swimming makes up the gap in pure swimming performance.

 

Really enjoyed your post Matt. Love to read more of your stuff if you get some time mate :lol:

Edited by Coach@triathlon

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Thanks Pete. Great advice and with some evidence (videos) and cred (results) to back it up.

 

If anyone can beat PJ out of the water I will listen to their advice too.

 

Any takers?

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Thanks Pete. Great advice and with some evidence (videos) and cred (results) to back it up.

 

If anyone can beat PJ out of the water I will listen to their advice too.

 

Any takers?

 

great attitude :lol:

 

I suppose you wouldn't listen to Denis Cottrell either because you can probably swim faster than him?

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You let your spot roll down! haha

 

Yeh mate, I did. :-)

 

Better ways to allocate my capital.

 

Been there, done that, blown up badly. Larfs.

 

I don't dream about Kona. They are still plugging the road after my experience there.

 

Hope the guy that got my roll down enjoys himself, sincerely.

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Yeh mate, I did. :-)

 

Better ways to allocate my capital.

 

Been there, done that, blown up badly. Larfs.

 

I don't dream about Kona. They are still plugging the road after my experience there.

 

Hope the guy that got my roll down enjoys himself, sincerely.

 

I'm sure there's someone really happy with your decision!

 

Out of interest, what changes would you make to your program (if any) if the plan was kona?

 

Cheers

 

Conor

Edited by conor

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I might add that Matt is over 40 :lol:

 

One of the things Matt has been really good at over the twenty plus years I have known him is his ability to pace himself. Always to perfection.

 

You also take that on board with your intelligent training paces.

 

You are dead right about wetsuit swimming being a different animal. You need to learn how to swim fast in a wetsuit. It takes time and practice.

 

Spot Anderson and I race each other all year and often have the fastest times for the swim overall. The blokes we match or beat would absolutely towel us in the pool. The combination of working together ( I take the first line to the first can flat out, he takes over and navigates us in without goggles), extensive open water experience and wetsuit swimming makes up the gap in pure swimming performance.

 

Really enjoyed your post Matt. Love to read more of your stuff if you get some time mate :lol:

 

Argh, I'm having too many memories now with Jabbs and Mick in the house. I do wish Chris Southwell would chat more, though. Respect 101 for that dude, too!

 

The old Shire boys take a tongue in cheek spray from people in here from time to time but dang if they weren't my idols as I grew up in tri's. Goes to show how late I must have been hitting puberty when Mick is only a couple of years older than me now (and obviously then, too) but back in the day I always thought he was alot older. Winning big-time races like Royal National Park from age 19. Like many of that era I guess, going quick and racing pro at a real young age. Maybe that's why our bodies are now as tight as a camel's arsehole? :-)

 

Great info on your's/Spot's swim strategy. My dad's last words before each race were "Go find Spot, get on his drag". I can see why you take him out and then he comes thru'. I found Spot at Husky this year, we started to the side and I had my head near two feet up his back-side thinking, "ok, this is insane, it's stupid easy, the bunch on the right is putting time on us, I should get out of here real soon and make a move or it's all over". Absolutely NO sprint off the startline, just cruisey as. No anaerobia. Sure enough, we soon stopped losing ground and Spot just INCREASED the pace and thanks for coming we were in a perfect position with the main players who were sucking wind. The reason I loved Spot's drag over the years was 'cause.....he didn't kick. His drag was like a vortex.

 

I had some more memories come back in the last hour re; pad/buoy(band) work....

 

Back in the day when the Grand Prix races were in town each year, I'd see Sutto's squad (again, love or hate B.S.,the discussion is 'training') members rock up in the final week before the race and they would use Manly Pool, where I swim.

 

Loretta Harrop, Andrew Johns, Greg Bennett.....without fail, had a buoy between their legs the whole session, often with paddles, too (Loretta seemingly always with the latter). 100's galore, tonnes and tonnes of them, over and over at a high aerobic effort (not threshold, how else can you do a big set like 60x on something like 1:20/1:25 send off (long course). I'd slide in on the back of the stars and suck toes, big time and bail half-way when I had to get back to work.

 

Chappo I saw a couple of times as well...training solo. A polite quick 'hi' to me even though I don't think he knew me. Then same deal..massive set of 100's, Chappo would have the buoy, maybe not the paddles if I recall correctly but always the buoy, and I think a band. Real short rest again, quick catch of the breathe and go. Was always something stupid like a 1:20 send off for Trent, but he was obviously not red-lining it, just a moderately hard, tempo effort for a long time with I'd suggest the most value coming from the last 2K when he and this crew are maintaining that effort 'on tired arms' THIS is when the adaptations happens and I bet how Chappo trains up his PISS crew physically and mentally?

 

And Jan Rehula. Anyone remember him? Saw him at the pool alot back around '98-2000 and happily lobbed into some of his sessions, also at Manly Pool, the big dog was living there.

 

Sessions again were nearly all the same. Massive set of 100's, short rest, tempo (GREY ZONE!! Fark me, don't train there it doesn't work!! ;-) ).

 

But in the last 1K or so big Jan would say,"Ok, Matchew...now we do some splints". So he starts smashing something like 15m fast! (buoyed/padded up)/20m slow/15m fast! or 25's, stopping in the middle of the pool. Again, at the end, not the beginning of the session, forcing the body to work hard on tired arms, forcing the recruitment of some deep muscle fibres that otherwise wouldn't be touched on or something like that (larfs).

 

I have had some great discussions the last couple of weeks with a nice fella named Kristian Manietta. We never met until recently but it was similar topics we spoke on and particularly in regards to my own training and how I've been able to seemingly race half decent over the last 18 months on what to most folks is seemingly bugger all volume.

 

Especially as AG athletes, we have to find ways to make sweet, performance giving adaptations from less. I always read this stuff about aerobic 'base'. I think many AG'ers need to understand that 'aerobic' goes alot higher up the VO2 max curve than 70%!

 

I'll argue with you that the work from which the top pro's are getting their bang for the buck is not all the filler shit they do around their key sessions, it's the key 'harder aerobic' sessions themselves. Aka Crowie's 10 x 1 mile at 6:00>>5:30/mile reps on a 6:30 send off. Chappo's (NOT a pro anymore. He works big-time! could do with some kids,though) big TT's at the end of his long rides and long swim sets. Or fartlek runs on tired legs. I'd hazard a guess that these PISS boys are doing alot of their pushing on tired bodies. So they're too fatigued to totally be red-lining their effort, and instead punching out a high quality 'aerobic' effort on their tired legs. Adaptations 101, and mental farking hardening!!

 

And that makes me digress again...that term 'high aerobic' that everyone uses per the great Kiwi run coach Arthur Lydiard. So many people make the assumption that he was talking about 'threshold'/1-hr TT pace('AT' pace) training

 

However, a huge majority of Lydiard's training (100miles a week) was targeted at a pace they could back up day after day.

 

The Lydiard trained runners who ran around 2:10 marathons were hitting a core pace on the flats in training of about 3:15-3:20 per km. Yet the 'AT' requirement for that sort of marathon runner would be about 2:55-2:57/km.

 

I remember talking to a little known guy called Scott Molina about this years back, and he said the same thing.

 

That's a high aerobic/sub-threshold/mod-hard/tempo/close to half IM/grey zone type effort they were hitting.

 

Think I have gone off track again. :-) Getting too, anal.

 

Just go training, don't think 'too' much like I used to, and understand if you want a result you gotta sometimes punch it a bit when you least think you should.

Edited by MJK

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I had some more memories come back in the last hour re; pad/buoy(band) work....

 

Back in the day when the Grand Prix races were in town each year, I'd see Sutto's squad (again, love or hate B.S.,the discussion is 'training') members rock up in the final week before the race and they would use Manly Pool, where I swim.

 

Loretta Harrop, Andrew Johns, Greg Bennett.....without fail, had a buoy between their legs the whole session, often with paddles, too (Loretta seemingly always with the latter). 100's galore, tonnes and tonnes of them, over and over at a high aerobic effort (not threshold, how else can you do a big set like 60x on something like 1:20/1:25 send off (long course). I'd slide in on the back of the stars and suck toes, big time and bail half-way when I had to get back to work.

 

Chappo I saw a couple of times as well...training solo. A polite quick 'hi' to me even though I don't think he knew me. Then same deal..massive set of 100's, Chappo would have the buoy, maybe not the paddles if I recall correctly but always the buoy, and I think a band. Real short rest again, quick catch of the breathe and go. Was always something stupid like a 1:20 send off for Trent, but he was obviously not red-lining it, just a moderately hard, tempo effort for a long time with I'd suggest the most value coming from the last 2K when he and this crew are maintaining that effort 'on tired arms' THIS is when the adaptations happens and I bet how Chappo trains up his PISS crew physically and mentally?

 

And Jan Rehula. Anyone remember him? Saw him at the pool alot back around '98-2000 and happily lobbed into some of his sessions, also at Manly Pool, the big dog was living there.

 

Sessions again were nearly all the same. Massive set of 100's, short rest, tempo (GREY ZONE!! Fark me, don't train there it doesn't work!! ;-) ).

 

But in the last 1K or so big Jan would say,"Ok, Matchew...now we do some splints". So he starts smashing something like 15m fast! (buoyed/padded up)/20m slow/15m fast! or 25's, stopping in the middle of the pool. Again, at the end, not the beginning of the session, forcing the body to work hard on tired arms, forcing the recruitment of some deep muscle fibres that otherwise wouldn't be touched on or something like that (larfs).

 

I have had some great discussions the last couple of weeks with a nice fella named Kristian Manietta. We never met until recently but it was similar topics we spoke on and particularly in regards to my own training and how I've been able to seemingly race half decent over the last 18 months on what to most folks is seemingly bugger all volume.

 

Especially as AG athletes, we have to find ways to make sweet, performance giving adaptations from less. I always read this stuff about aerobic 'base'. I think many AG'ers need to understand that 'aerobic' goes alot higher up the VO2 max curve than 70%!

 

I'll argue with you that the work from which the top pro's are getting their bang for the buck is not all the filler shit they do around their key sessions, it's the key 'harder aerobic' sessions themselves. Aka Crowie's 10 x 1 mile at 6:00>>5:30/mile reps on a 6:30 send off. Chappo's (NOT a pro anymore. He works big-time! could do with some kids,though) big TT's at the end of his long rides and long swim sets. Or fartlek runs on tired legs. I'd hazard a guess that these PISS buoys are doing alot of their pushing on tired bodies. So they're too fatigued to totally be red-lining their effort, and instead punching out a high quality 'aerobic' effort on their tired legs. Adaptations 101, and mental farking hardening!!

 

And that makes me digress again...that term 'high aerobic' that everyone uses per the great Kiwi run coach Arthur Lydiard. So many people make the assumption that he was talking about 'threshold'/1-hr TT pace('AT' pace) training

 

However, a huge majority of Lydiard's training (100miles a week) was targeted at a pace they could back up day after day.

 

The Lydiard trained runners who ran around 2:10 marathons were hitting a core pace on the flats in training of about 3:15-3:20 per km. Yet the 'AT' requirement for that sort of marathon runner would be about 2:55-2:57/km.

 

I remember talking to a little known guy called Scott Molina about this years back, and he said the same thing.

 

That's a high aerobic/sub-threshold/mod-hard/tempo/close to half IM/grey zone type effort they were hitting.

 

Think I have gone off track again. :-) Getting too, anal.

 

Just go training, don't think 'too' much like I used to, and understand if you want a result you gotta sometimes punch it a bit when you least think you should.

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. Absolute gold.

 

Please keep it coming

 

 

fluro

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As a very average swimmer (64min IM) this thread has been a real education.

 

Thanks to PJ, Reactor, MJK, et al for your contributions.

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Just to clarify - the word strength.

 

It is a topic of great debate because none of what we are talking about actually relates to "strength" as defined physiologically as the maximal force you can apply - i.e. one maximum rep.

 

So confusion then arises when people use the term talking about an endurance activity, such as "swimmers need to get stronger" or just work on their "strength". That does not mean (and I don't think anyone intends it to mean) that swimmers need to work in the gym at increasing their muscular strength. I take it to mean stamina, endurance, muscular endurance etc.

 

Swimming with a band (tether in Melbourne :lol:) involves greater resistance then normal, but for anyone of reasonable fitness, they can do enough repetitions for it not to be strength limited, but again, fitness/endurance limited.

 

Swimming is not about being "strong", not for triathlon distances anyway, it is about the combination of technique and fitness. Neither in isolation, work on both all the time. If swimming was about strength then why can so many 13 to 14 year old girls swim so much faster then grown men with rippling bulging muscles that do triathlon this sport I love :lol::)

 

Some people still want to keep that word "strength" in all these discussions, but it does lead to the confusion. It is used in the cycling discussions erroneously too, but most are used to it now. So whilst I am not fussed if people want to use the term, for those that are new to the area or trying to learn and can be confusing.

 

As to what is the best technique in open water. Well, I'll let others fight that one out. I've got thoughts, and I think they work, they do for me at least, I get out of the water with people who are minutes ahead of me in the pool - but it might not be all down to technique - it could be that Animal instict of racing for food!! :D:):D

 

 

G'day Animal,

 

I know this has been brought up before but I'm still struggling to understand your concept of 'strength'. I just don't agree that strength training is your maximal force you apply for one rep. The reason being if we go to the gym to build strength, we rarely, if every do exercises that involve doing maximal force for one rep. It nevers happens, to build strength, we do weights that allow us to do multiple reps. So in the gym this might be 6 reps or 10 reps, whatever, it's what we do to try and build strength. Just like in cycling, we do repetitions to build strength in a big gear over multiple times and not single repetitions to build strength.

 

How could we possible every measure strength in the pool if we are restricted to measuring strength as a 'one rep' max effort? can't we just put on some bigger paddles to add more weight/resistence? while it might not be anywhere near our one rep max it is still building strength.

 

My question to you is, considering your definition of strength, how do you go about building strength? Should I put the maximum weight around my waist in order to do one chinup to build strength?

 

My definition of strength comes down to being able to either lift more weight, a bigger gear at the same cadence as someone else. If I do that I must be stronger right? I must have more strength??

 

Based on what you are saying above, pure strength training is based around doing your maximal weight for one rep, how can that make you stronger? That is where the confusion lies with me.

 

 

fluro

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The Lydiard trained runners who ran around 2:10 marathons were hitting a core pace on the flats in training of about 3:15-3:20 per km. Yet the 'AT' requirement for that sort of marathon runner would be about 2:55-2:57/km.

 

Sorry to digress, but which runners ran 20.5km in an hour back in the 60's??? They were much closer to AT pace thn you think. The big mistake that weekend warriors do when they follow Lydiard is that they copy the volume but don't realise what pace those guys ran. When you actually scale it down to a volume with similar quality then it is what most good runners are already doing.

Lydiard didn't re-write anything.

 

Just go training, don't think 'too' much like I used to, and understand if you want a result you gotta sometimes punch it a bit when you least think you should.

 

Yes, which is why I like running. Simple and effective, run more-run faster and you race faster. So I can't understand the length of your threads, can't follow all that. Only saw this Lydiard bit because someone else quoted it.

 

As an aspirant IM'er, who is a really,really bad swimmer and hates swimming...the amount of technique requirement I read about here is actually putting me off.

All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

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All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

 

 

Thats what people don't get. It's much more then saving just 10min off your time, it's about being more efficient and saving energy so that when you do get to the run you can KEEP running.

 

You might be able to take alot more time off your marathon, and I agree with you here, but if your nuked at the start of the marathon, all that marathon specific training will amount to very little.

 

 

fluro

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Sorry to digress, but which runners ran 20.5km in an hour back in the 60's??? They were much closer to AT pace thn you think. The big mistake that weekend warriors do when they follow Lydiard is that they copy the volume but don't realise what pace those guys ran. When you actually scale it down to a volume with similar quality then it is what most good runners are already doing.

Lydiard didn't re-write anything.

 

 

 

Yes, which is why I like running. Simple and effective, run more-run faster and you race faster. So I can't understand the length of your threads, can't follow all that. Only saw this Lydiard bit because someone else quoted it.

 

As an aspirant IM'er, who is a really,really bad swimmer and hates swimming...the amount of technique requirement I read about here is actually putting me off.

All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

 

To my knowledge Lydiard was still advising elite international runners in his consultancy role way beyond the 1960's! Try adding another 20++ years.

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Guest Rentakill

.... Evil, taking ten minutes off you swim for most (because of the company you keep up the faster end) will if you play your cards right possibly pan out to a substantially faster bike and possibly half an hour quicker at the end, once again with the caveat 'if you play your cards right'..

 

Matty, yeah 100's are where its at and easy on the mind, funny how I never knew that was what everyone else was doing, I just used to do that as well, although it has been a long time since I was doing them on the 1.20, I still have no probs coming in on the 1.20 ish and doing a 1.30 cycle. and concentrating on holding the time for the repeat, rather than having the time drop off.

 

I was lazy though and didnt swim long. Squad can be good or bad, especially when you are moving along in the moving water. I also did a lot of swimming training on my own with a watch and big paddles I like around 2-3pm at public pools (ahh shift work), the mums have gone to pick up their kids from school and the squads havent descended and you can get a lane to yourself. I also used to do hard swim sessions after hard weights sessions and run after swimming and I reckon there is a lot to this.

 

Mick is right pool swimming is very different from open water swimming and wetsuit swimming is very different again, and like Mick a lot of people that could pants me in the pool were suddenly a ways back when they didnt have a black line to follow or tumble turns to do, and a few waves, chops, kicking and sun in your eyes.

 

I might add on that point that my eyesight is..... shit. I now wear contacts all the time and wish I had started wearing them a bit earlier on when I was racing, I remember a few comical episodes where I couldnt see the can but was leading and would take the whole race a few hundred metres off course, that happened more than once, probably didnt hurt me as it confused people, slowed them down and made the swim longer..... but it was probably funny to watch.

Edited by Rentakill

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Guest Rentakill

Might add that MJK's dad was a champion marathon swimmer and english channel swimmer..... (I think mate??) just thought I would chuck that out there.

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Might add that MJK's dad was a champion marathon swimmer and english channel swimmer..... (I think mate??) just thought I would chuck that out there.

 

John did the Cook Strait....between the shaky isles...arguably a harder, colder swim the the Channel on its day

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Sorry to digress, but which runners ran 20.5km in an hour back in the 60's??? They were much closer to AT pace thn you think. The big mistake that weekend warriors do when they follow Lydiard is that they copy the volume but don't realise what pace those guys ran. When you actually scale it down to a volume with similar quality then it is what most good runners are already doing.

Lydiard didn't re-write anything.

 

 

 

Yes, which is why I like running. Simple and effective, run more-run faster and you race faster. So I can't understand the length of your threads, can't follow all that. Only saw this Lydiard bit because someone else quoted it.

 

As an aspirant IM'er, who is a really,really bad swimmer and hates swimming...the amount of technique requirement I read about here is actually putting me off.

All that for what? 10min off your time. I can show you some simple stuff that will take much more than that off your marathon with much less volume and little skill...and I have a track record of doing that for 1st time marathoners.

 

cheers

 

That 10 minutes in the swim pays forward big time

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