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Peter

Why is motorpacing so good?

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I know so many pro's that do it but what is the actual reason for it?

 

If it's for speed then why don't we do more swimming with flippers?

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I am no expert, but I started with a group who motorpace once a week and I must say that the biggest benefit I got was I learnt what hurt really is. Prior to this when I started to what I thought was hurting, I would back off the intensity, but after doing motorpacing my lactate threshold is now far greater (no where near Rentakill though cause he is HARD, you ask him) therefore I can push harder for longer.

 

Please note I have no idea of the science behind motorpacing, this is just what I have found.

 

Before anyone says anything, yes I did ask the coach who was riding the scooter what the benefits are, and he explained, I just cant remember.

 

Enjoyed the sessions though. Appeared to be safe as long as the road is suitable for this activity.

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I suppose from a safety aspect it would be like training with a really fast bunch without the bunch.

 

Macca (just before he nearly killed himself motorpacing) was doing a set at Kurnell where he said he does one lap warmup, one lap at 50k, one lap at 60k, then one lap at 70k and see how long you can hang on for.

 

I think it is for learning to tolerate long fast hard efforts.

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both macca and terenzo did a lot a or motor pacing up in Kona. They got pulled over by the police during one session.

 

I was in teh car when terenzo did some motor pacing pre taupo, and I cldnt believe the pace he was handling for 80odd km. Fortunatley i didnt have to concentrate with the driving

 

I think the attitude is that it is a hard session anda big boost psyhcologically if they can pull it off

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I think it is for learning to tolerate long fast hard efforts.

 

That's what we've used it for "generally hardening up triathletes".

 

Another benefit I've found is, it seems to smooth out your pedalling action (holding a fast pace for a long time)

 

It's not easy to find a suitable venue when you live in a city.

 

I'd personally like to do more, I have the motorbike but it's not easy to find a rider for it who'll get up early in the mornings on a Sunday morning when there's not much traffic about :lol:

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Can anyone explain what the benefit is from riding behind a motorbike?

 

I thought cycling was all about power. If you are producing as much power as you can for n minutes what does it matter if you are going 50kph in the wind or 70kph behind a motorbike? What is the physiological training benefit from hiding behind the moto?

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For those that have little idea about motorpacing (me), what would be considered an ideal road and conditions to conduct motorpacing? I am guessing long, smooth, with plenty of room for cars to pass?

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im seated and ready to hear all of the myths..

 

with the use of power meters now i think motor pacing is so useless for TT's

 

 

 

bit different for track and Road Racing

 

Edit to say the reason its different for track a RR is physiologically you have to learn to hold a wheel at almost all costs.. the moto surges and the bike handling is very much like race conditions

Edited by kokomo

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im seated and ready to hear all of the myths..

 

with the use of power meters now i think motor pacing is so useless for TT's

 

 

 

bit different for track and Road Racing

 

 

are you saying there is no drafting in triathlon Kokomo??? :lol:

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If you are producing as much power as you can for n minutes what does it matter if you are going 50kph in the wind or 70kph behind a motorbike? What is the physiological training benefit from hiding behind the moto?

 

i'm guessing but i'd assume the physiological outcome is the same either way but with the moto you have a psychological "carrot on a stick". if you ease off for a moment you'll loose the wheel of the moto

 

if you've got a power meter there probably isn't much point

Edited by jv911

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Also roadies (sprinters) use it to learn to jump off the front while already doing ridiculous speeds. A mate who was riding pro would sit in behind the moto then try and accelerate past on the slight inclines at Kurnell.

 

Would help triathletes surge to the front of the bunch when they hear a draftbuster coming. :lol:

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I know so many pro's that do it but what is the actual reason for it?

 

If it's for speed then why don't we do more swimming with flippers?

There's a difference between riding hard solo, and riding fast and hard either in a fast bunch or motorpacing.

 

In a bunch/motorpacing you're able to maintain a high speed - and high intensity - for longer compared to on your own. So the physiological adaption is the speed aspect that you simply can't achieve to the same extent on your own.

 

In running you'll see sprinters doing reps being pulled forwards by an elastic cord - over speed reps - or doing downhill sprints. Again, it's about the speed adaptation and training to perform at faster speed.

 

We've very occasionally done similar things at swimming with fins, but you really need a 50m pool.

Edited by CEM

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im seated and ready to hear all of the myths..

 

with the use of power meters now i think motor pacing is so useless for TT's

 

 

 

bit different for track and Road Racing

 

Edit to say the reason its different for track a RR is physiologically you have to learn to hold a wheel at almost all costs.. the moto surges and the bike handling is very much like race conditions

 

I think Cancellara and every great TT rider would disagree!!

 

Motor Pacing helps increase your ability to operate at high thresh hold, rather than liking it to riding in fast bunch, more like riding 2nd wheel in very fast bunch.

 

Its an old school method that has a very valid place for training still, awesome way to get a very high quality workout in a short period of time.

 

Helps if you can have a biker that also rides, but like AP said, they either have to be bribed substantially to get up out of bed or want to be behind the bike themselves, safe money would say that the guy riding the motor bike in front of Macca either doesnt ride a bike or hasnt done much motor pacing before.

 

:lol:

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On the occasion of the "mishap" it was his manager, he has two regular moto riders who were unavailable.

 

Edit: Similar to CEM's running comment, I have seen swimmers getting pulled through the water as well to, I assume, get used to swimming at speed. Not hacks either this was Thorpes old squad.

Edited by roxii

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Please note I have no idea of the science behind motorpacing, this is just what I have found.

Once you examine power meter data from such sessions, you quickly realise it's of no specific physiological benefit for TT performance or improving threshold power, over that which you can/do attain from non-motor paced efforts.

 

There's a difference between riding hard solo, and riding fast and hard either in a fast bunch or motorpacing.

while I agree with the above

 

In a bunch/motorpacing you're able to maintain a high speed - and high intensity - for longer compared to on your own. So the physiological adaption is the speed aspect that you simply can't achieve to the same extent on your own.

I would suggest that it's not the speed issue that is the adaptation but a neuromuscular one.

 

Speed is simply balance between power output and the resistance forces. If you happen to have resistance forces lowered because you're drafting in a big bunch/motorbike, then you simply ride a bigger gear. The pedal forces and speeds are the same. If you want higher speed for same power then ride down a long steady descent and/or find a strong tailwind.

 

 

There are two main elements:

- Physiological differences

- Motivational/psychological differences

 

Physiologically, it has far more to do with the fact that the neuromuscular demands are significantly different to solo riding.

Metabolically, as long as it's at the desired overall intensity, it will be no more/less beneficial than solo riding.

 

A casual glance at a Quadrant Analysis from motor pace efforts will demonstrate this quite quickly and also show the neuromuscular demands have little physiological specificity with respect to time trial and non-draft triathlon events.

 

However it can be a motivational tool to ensure an athlete gets hard training done (the metabolic impact is similar), even if the specificity is reduced.

 

Many sensible purposes for motor pace are:

- providing (roadie) race like simulation where the neuromuscular demands are significantly different to those encountered with solo riding, even though the metabolic demand may be similar. The same simulations are attainable through hard bunch rides, and road races. Where a rider has limited access to such training opportunity or races, it makes some sense to consider motorpacing if you know what you are doing

 

- as a motivational tool and a change up to training. Many find it challenging and fun

 

- for track sprint work - e.g. getting track sprinters up to a high pace without having used all their gas getting to a high speed in the first place, so they can practice hard accelerations from a high start speed. This enables more such work to be completed in a session.

 

- for track team pursuit and points race simulation when limited riders are available

 

- practice for motor pace events (various track races have elements of motorpacing)

 

- for ensuring rider safety and discipline during track warm ups with lots of riders on the track

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Guest Rentakill
On the occasion of the "mishap" it was his manager, he has two regular moto riders who were unavailable.

 

Was the manager looking at himself in the mirror and not looking where he was going? :lol:

 

But I think motorpacing helps as it gives you the sustained ability to maintain high intensity in real world road conditions. On the track has certainly helped my ability to hang with riders better than me and develop the ability to pedal faster and more smoothly. Done a few derny sessions on the track where the pace gets faster and faster and you are really suffering toward the end of them, harder than any race. That cant fail to make you better. I think the proof is in the pudding, it just forces you to do those longer sustained efforts well above threshold where if you were on your own you would lose focus.

 

Have been 'lucky' enough to do the one lap on, one lap off derny workouts where you get paced up to a certain speed, the derny swings up and you sustain that speed for a lap, drops back down in front of you and winds it up a little more and so on. Ouch. But similarly, wow. It hurts and is hard to get access to such sessions but by crikey if they dont make you better.

 

Fast bunches where you are riding with riders of superior ability can also facilitate a similar effect.

Edited by Rentakill

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Guest Rentakill

... so I might add I have to disagree with Alex on that one on the basis of personal experience and demonstrable improvement even for an old fat hack.

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Was the manager looking at himself in the mirror and not looking where he was going? :lol:

 

But I think motorpacing helps as it gives you the sustained ability to maintain high intensity in real world road conditions. On the track has certainly helped my ability to hang with riders better than me and develop the ability to pedal faster and more smoothly. Done a few derny sessions on the track where the pace gets faster and faster and you are really suffering toward the end of them, harder than any race. That cant fail to make you better. I think the proof is in the pudding, it just forces you to do those longer sustained efforts well above threshold where if you were on your own you would lose focus.

 

Have been 'lucky' enough to do the one lap on, one lap off derny workouts where you get paced up to a certain speed, the derny swings up and you sustain that speed for a lap, drops back down in front of you and winds it up a little more and so on. Ouch. But similarly, wow. It hurts and is hard to get access to such sessions but by crikey if they dont make you better.

 

Fast bunches where you are riding with riders of superior ability can also facilitate a similar effect.

Have to agree 100%

 

Been motor pacing for the last 6 to 9 months - My improvements have been 10 fold.

 

Just started doing a monday night session where its a warm up but getting qucker every 10 laps, then a 60 lap points sim - I will add we are rotating at 45kph in between sets.

 

I personally would never hurt my self like you do at theses sessions

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Guest Rentakill
i'm guessing but i'd assume the physiological outcome is the same either way but with the moto you have a psychological "carrot on a stick". if you ease off for a moment you'll loose the wheel of the moto

 

if you've got a power meter there probably isn't much point

 

Yeah I disagree with that. A lot of power nuts disregard heart rate and pedaling suppleness as important factors in improving your ability to go faster on a bike. Developing the ability to pedal faster and more efficiently has certainly helped me and I would imagine many others to produce more watts, and sustain higher heart rates but at the same time having a lower perceived exertion or having it 'hurt good' rather than 'hurt bad'.

 

No disrespect to Alex but there is a lot more to the equation that the numbers coming out of a power meter, and I own three of the things.

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Guest 3timesthefun

I think people need to read textbooks and scientific papers less ...... and try things more

 

If you want to know what something is like, don't ask what it's like on transitions....try it yourself

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