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KieranR

How do i become a better runner keeping HR low

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zed    738
2 hours ago, GSP said:

Hi Zed,

I wasn't suggesting running at high intensity.  I was talking about running as much as possible at race pace for long distance running.  If you are doing short tris, that is clearly not achievable.  For me, the only time I'll get into high intensity running is during a SC race, never in training anymore, but a large portion above comfortable.  You should be able to hold that pace for 1-2 hours, if you can't you're moving into HI running which as mentioned I'm not suggesting.

Regarding injuries, sure there are plenty of examples where some people are prone to injuries and I can't disagree that running can bring them out (I've had plenty of niggles from running myself).  You always here about the unlucky injured person, but not all the people that largely have not had major problems.

Ciao

OK gotcha. 👍

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Buggeracup    131

I'm interested in this discussion.

Why is there a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bike training though. I often read on this forum that there is no point cruising around doing easy miles on the bike. Ride hard at every opportunity even if training for longer distances with heaps of high intensity intervals for example.

So why the difference of opinion for running? Is it purely a matter of injury likelihood versus injury avoidance? 

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RunBrettRun    1,353
3 hours ago, Buggeracup said:

I'm interested in this discussion.

Why is there a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bike training though. I often read on this forum that there is no point cruising around doing easy miles on the bike. Ride hard at every opportunity even if training for longer distances with heaps of high intensity intervals for example.

So why the difference of opinion for running? Is it purely a matter of injury likelihood versus injury avoidance? 

It depends who you ask.

 

I do what a lot consider easy miles on the bike and seem to make steady improvement.

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zed    738
4 hours ago, Buggeracup said:

I'm interested in this discussion.

Why is there a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bike training though. I often read on this forum that there is no point cruising around doing easy miles on the bike. Ride hard at every opportunity even if training for longer distances with heaps of high intensity intervals for example.

So why the difference of opinion for running? Is it purely a matter of injury likelihood versus injury avoidance? 

I think a lot of people struggle with the concept that running slow can make you fast, I suppose it's illogical, but it works. Also high volume and high intensity does work, so I can understand someone who trains in this manner not believing how running much slower would be more effective.  I had two mates who both went under 3 hours for the first time in the Perth marathon recently, 2 very different training programs. One was doing a lot of training at race pace, the other 80/20. (He was the one that put me on to Matt Fitzgeralds book). So more ways than one to skin a cat. I think for me running slow allows me to clock up reasonable mileage (70km last week) without getting sore, demotivated and fatigued.  It also allows me to train the other disciplines more effectively. 

Not sure about cycling and junk miles, but elite athletes in other sports such as rowing and cross country skiing train with a 80/20 training methodology.

 

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Fitness Buddy    588

Shakira got it right with her song

"My hips don't lie"

Mobility and strength through hips makes running so much easier. 

Lack of mobility will generally see runners over reach with their foot which leads to over striding. 

Everyone can work on this while watching tv or even doing while scrolling trannies

I am willing to do a program in regards to mobility and strength work and you only pay if you improve.  

 

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garf    13

This  here is the link to a pdf presentation  by Stephen Seiler.  He has done much to promote polarised (80/20) training after studying endurance athletes over several decades. I think Matt Fitzgerald's book cover may be in their too- since that book is based on Seiler's work.

Worth a quick look as it reinforces SLOWING DOWN for the bulk of work. Make the easy days easy, and the hard days HARD....even that has a caveat. Hard days are mostly upper zone 4 in his work.

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dazmuzza    33

Arthur Lydiard was the pioneer of the 80/20 philosophy and his athletes used to smash the high intensity guys at the Olympics. Sure it was half a decade ago, but I think the principles still hold.

 

I like 80/20 as it means I can train more in other things, not feel tired all the time and get faster. 

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garf    13
3 hours ago, dazmuzza said:

Arthur Lydiard was the pioneer of the 80/20 philosophy and his athletes used to smash the high intensity guys at the Olympics. Sure it was half a decade ago, but I think the principles still hold.

 

I like 80/20 as it means I can train more in other things, not feel tired all the time and get faster. 

There are differing thoughts on this, probably due to the terminology used. I.ve seen proponents of large volumes of tempo (sustained sub-threshold) training cite Lydiard as evidence in support, and proponents of polarised do the same.

In Lydiard's Base phase there appears to be several tempo runs a week with little work above threshold. What a lot of people miss though , is that Lydiard had his athletes doing super easy morning runs. So there was actually a LOT of easy volume...

 

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Stikman    1,285

I think I'm right in saying that Lydiard had two "faster" sessions in the base phase, a fartlek and a steady run.  But what I've seen (third hand from those that trained with or spoke to him) the fartlek was still all relatively easy (i.e. pace changed from easy to easier) and the steady state was no faster than marathon pace.  Still all under aerobic threshold and nowhere near LT.

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KieranR    105

Some great info here in your responses! Cheers.  I went for my first trot tonight since I posted and I ran with the deliberate intent of going slow and below 145 bpm, I did 6.5km @6:33 average pace and 142 bpm average. Had my watch showing nothing but H/R.   So I'll see where this goes from here.

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AP    1,529
20 hours ago, Buggeracup said:

I'm interested in this discussion.

Why is there a significant difference of opinion when it comes to bike training though. I often read on this forum that there is no point cruising around doing easy miles on the bike. Ride hard at every opportunity even if training for longer distances with heaps of high intensity intervals for example.

So why the difference of opinion for running? Is it purely a matter of injury likelihood versus injury avoidance? 

Pro cyclists don't train hard at every opportunity - they do lots of "easy miles" - what's written on this forum is not always right - 25yrs ago a former pro cyclist told me - train easy race hard - back in the day they raced most weekends and trained easy all week - the races were their high intensity work B)

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Real life example.

Haven't raced since 2012 and early this year signed up for Brisbane Mara in 3 weeks. Hadn't done a lot of running during the past 5 years due to injury.

For the past 6 months have been slowly building volume with 80-90% 'easy' low heart rate running.

I regularly do an 11 k loop so comparison is easy. 6 weeks ago at an average HR of 145bpm I averaged around the 5.45 min per k. Yesterday with an average HR of 143bpm did the same loop averaging 5.20bpm.

Similarly on my long run. 4 weeks ago did a 32k loop with an average HR of 150 at around the 5.50 min/k. Last Sunday same loop HR 148bpm ave 5.30 min/k.

Currently running around 75-80k per week with only 2 sessions (out of 6) where I do any speed or threshold stuff. The biggest advantage for a fat old bloke like me is that ability to back up and run the next day.

Next thing will be giving Al Pitman a call and signing up for another IM!!!!!

 

 

 

 

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KieranR    105
8 minutes ago, Capt Underpants said:

Real life example.

Haven't raced since 2012 and early this year signed up for Brisbane Mara in 3 weeks. Hadn't done a lot of running during the past 5 years due to injury.

For the past 6 months have been slowly building volume with 80-90% 'easy' low heart rate running.

I regularly do an 11 k loop so comparison is easy. 6 weeks ago at an average HR of 145bpm I averaged around the 5.45 min per k. Yesterday with an average HR of 143bpm did the same loop averaging 5.20bpm.

Similarly on my long run. 4 weeks ago did a 32k loop with an average HR of 150 at around the 5.50 min/k. Last Sunday same loop HR 148bpm ave 5.30 min/k.

Currently running around 75-80k per week with only 2 sessions (out of 6) where I do any speed or threshold stuff. The biggest advantage for a fat old bloke like me is that ability to back up and run the next day.

Next thing will be giving Al Pitman a call and signing up for another IM!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Wow, i thought it would have been a slower process than that to see a significant change in average pace.  this is fantastic, hope the marra goes well for you

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dazmuzza    33
9 hours ago, AP said:

Pro cyclists don't train hard at every opportunity - they do lots of "easy miles" - what's written on this forum is not always right - 25yrs ago a former pro cyclist told me - train easy race hard - back in the day they raced most weekends and trained easy all week - the races were their high intensity work B)

Seconded. My mate is a former junior Australian cyclist back in the late 90s. His weekly training was lots of kilometres easy (i.e 1000k a week) then race on the weekend, just like you say. 

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trinube    1,030

I recall a number of years ago Plazbot set a 10k challenge involving low HR running. I think it was something like run 10k at a very low HR and log the time. Do it a few times a week always keeping the HR low and do a final run 10 weeks later and compare times.

Your body adapts to the workload and speed increases at the same HR. I recall having to walk a few times on the base run to keep my HR at the specified limit (IIRC mince was @ 120)  but within a few weeks I was going really well.

I don't actually enjoy running but at low HR I don't mind it - clearly if you enjoy it you're more likely to stick to it.

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Kieran

Have to remember there was 4 months prior to that as well of building. During that time I did basically no threshold work at all. So I don't think you could say it has been that short a timeframe. I would more rightly say that it has been 6 months to see the results.

 

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willie    598

Dont get injured. Be consistent, for at least 3 years. Try lose excess KGs. Biggest keys to running sucess... Most intermediate runners will improve with those things. 

Without reading the whone thread, key to both bike and run is go easy when it's easy. That in my opinion should be 85% or more of the time. Then when you've got a hard session. Go hard and lay it all out there, if you've gone easy enough in your easy sessions there should be enough in the tank. 

Keep things basic. Really basic. My wife runs 5 time a week. Rest monday, Easy Tuesday (30-50mins), intervals/fartlek/hills Wednesday (varies), easy Thursday (30-50 mins), rest Friday, parkrun Saturday (with 15 warm up 10 cool down, approx 45-50min total), long Sunday70-100mins). some weeks the hard Wednesday session will just be a longer off road 'easy' hilly run.

She's gone from running 29.10min over 5k to 22.30... She'll break 20mins before the year is out if she keeps it up (she's only just really starting to lose weight). Anyone who has me on FB knows the results I'm getting with my athletes and it's all quite "boring" and basic stuff getting results. Some things I see other (much better known) coaches doing baffles me. It's almost like they're trying to justify the $$$ they charge by complicating things... 

 

 

 

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roxii    3,944

Im just running easy at the moment trying to build a base and get my "hip" pain in order. Im not usually a stats and records kinda guy but having the garmin and strava makes it automatic. 

Since 28 May running 5.45 pace for a 5k my HR Ave has dropped from from 146 to 132 and still dropping. 

Im not going to try and run faster yet as I dont want to re-injure myself and go backwards but hoping losing a few kg's will help me go faster with similar effort.  

 

(Although I looked up my results for SMH Half marathon 10 years ago and ran it at 4.14 pace, which put it all in perspective,, dont let yourself go!!!! ) 

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RunBrettRun    1,353
3 hours ago, roxii said:

(Although I looked up my results for SMH Half marathon 10 years ago and ran it at 4.14 pace, which put it all in perspective,, dont let yourself go!!!! ) 

So you've always been fat?

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roxii    3,944
3 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

So you've always been fat?

No but never been a "runner" 

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RunBrettRun    1,353
40 minutes ago, roxii said:

No but never been a "runner" 

Oh come on where's that sense of humour.

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roxii    3,944

Not all fat people are jolly, stop stereotyping us. :lol: 

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Bored@work    1,414
12 hours ago, RunBrettRun said:

I should probably stop calling all triathletes wankers as well. 

nope. 

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