FatPom

More swimming numptiness (sorry!)

39 posts in this topic

OK, so I've ditched the kickboard (my hips thank you all:lol:) and I'm getting to the pool a bit more now and feeling ok.  Now bearing in mind that I could lose a swimming race to a house brick dynabolted to the pool floor, I'm looking to improve a bit.

I've been trying to concentrate on making sure my roll starts with the hips. I'm a bilateral breather in the pool but tend to breathe every stroke in open water/races.  Looking at the Swimsmooth site today, there was an tutorial on body roll, and they are saying the head must stay still while the body rolls.  Tried it tonight, did not go well:whistling:

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I do a lot of drills. I find doing single arm and catch up helps enormously with body/ hip roll. 

FM

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5 minutes ago, Flanman said:

I do a lot of drills. I find doing single arm and catch up helps enormously with body/ hip roll. 

FM

My roll feels ok but i can't keep my head still

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You're not going to like this, but kick drills on the side without a kick-board can help with body roll.

There are a few drills online that will demonstrate.

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If you're not a strong swimmer, you probably should be prioritising stuff other than head position e.g body position and effective catch. Your head moving excessively isn't critical.

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I dunno about zeds comment. Head position and lack of movement is critical and very much the starting point. A still head with the right position will help your body and hip position issues.

Its very difficult to provide accurate help over the internet for technique/form issues. So my tip is when working on your technique/form, only focus one thing at a time. It becomes a mess when trying to do multiple changes.

Then again age group swimmers can pretty much say fk technique. Get strong, fit and put a wetsuit on and you'll be more than fine.

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3 minutes ago, prizna said:

Then again age group swimmers can pretty much say fk technique. Get strong, fit and put a wetsuit on and you'll be more than fine.

Like x 1000

The fitter I get, the better my technique becomes B)

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1 hour ago, prizna said:

I dunno about zeds comment. Head position and lack of movement is critical and very much the starting point. A still head with the right position will help your body and hip position issues.

Its very difficult to provide accurate help over the internet for technique/form issues. So my tip is when working on your technique/form, only focus one thing at a time. It becomes a mess when trying to do multiple changes.

 

You might be right, I don't know. When I offer up advice to someone swimming with me I normally only give them 1 - 2 pointers despite seeing 10+ issues with their technique, they'll just get confused, so you need to pick and choose what you pull them up on. Hip rotation is obviously pretty important and fundamental to swimming well, but if I saw someone with a shithouse body position, hips sinking, I'd be working on that first up. 

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6 hours ago, prizna said:

I dunno about zeds comment. Head position and lack of movement is critical and very much the starting point. A still head with the right position will help your body and hip position issues.

Its very difficult to provide accurate help over the internet for technique/form issues. So my tip is when working on your technique/form, only focus one thing at a time. It becomes a mess when trying to do multiple changes.

Then again age group swimmers can pretty much say fk technique. Get strong, fit and put a wetsuit on and you'll be more than fine.

Thanks all.

This is pretty what I do. Feet one day, hips another etc.  I'm not a fast swimmer at all but not a 'survivor' swimmer either, well maybe I am by Oz stds :lol:  Just want to be a bit better, not a fish.  Drills can be a bit hard at my pool as it tends to get crowded sometimes and is 25mtrs, so I tend to focus on form if I can.

I knew the hip roll thing was important but had never realised before about keeping my head still ( which i cant!)

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It might seem obvious (I'm an engineer, so these things usually are :wink3:), but just keep focused on looking at the black line. This helps keep your head still.

Edited by Ex-Hasbeen
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30 minutes ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

It might seem obvious (I'm an engineer, so these things usually are :wink3:), but just keep focused on looking at the black line. This helps keep your head still.

Yeah that did actually occurr to me after a while.  Thing is, I would have said I've always pretty much looked down at the the line but it was only when I concentrated on it that I realised how much I roll my head with my body roll.

I did a swim session with YoYo once at Mac Ctr in Sydney and he commented that he thought my was too submerged. I think these days I tend to look a little more diagonally. 

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11 hours ago, Ex-Hasbeen said:

You're not going to like this, but kick drills on the side without a kick-board can help with body roll.

There are a few drills online that will demonstrate.

+1. This is also a drill I use. 

If you have trouble keeping your head still. I sometimes use my arm to put my head (sort of) in the water. A bit hard to explain but as you put your hand in the water for your catch, your arm/bicep contacts your ear and takes your head into the water. I find that my head rolls better when doing this.You can practise this standing up on dry land .

I find when combining this with single arm that it helps. Just make sure your hand doesn't cross your body on entry as this will make you snake  

FM

Edited by Flanman

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11 hours ago, Rog said:

Like x 1000

The fitter I get, the better my technique becomes B)

This Fat Pom

being older the improvements wont be as much and you cant do the volume of a younger dude but just get in the pool and swim.

One of my old swim coaches and i rate as one of the best ever once told us when we were younger and our lane was mainly Tri and surf . your to old to have a perfect swimmers stroke dont worry about it get in the pool and ill get you as fit as you can be and as strong as you can be .

i look back now at those sessions and think how the F%^k did we do those but guess what we all improved .

they were just simple sessions pretty much the same each week with a heap of Band only .

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FP, you will receive a lot of tips and advice from well meaning people. You need to sort through all the info and work out what's best for you. The advice on head position will vary slightly depending on what method people have learnt and trained by. Total Immersion swimming videos show the head to be lower in the water than a lot of contemporary training videos. Work out what suits your style and technique. 

Keep it simple. Think about it, the head is only in three positions during  swimming. To the front in the water, to the side when breathing and up and forwards when sighting. a few people have posted drills on here which will help you achieve that. Putting all that together and practising is the secret to getting better.

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49 minutes ago, trinube said:

Swim...

That's what I see a lot of triathletes doing, but making very little progress. Plodding up and down the pool doing junk miles, doing drills that are either irrelevant or they don't understand why they're doing them etc etc

Edited by zed

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+1 for the single arm catch-up drills.   I thought I was a reasonable swimmer until I did some of these at work recently and I found that I learnt that sometimes going back to basics is important.    I have a new career.... I get paid to swim :-)  (amongst many other cool things)

 

 

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OK, been swimming fairly regularly and my shoulder is slowly 'unfreezing'.  I'm getting some kind of consistency and concentrating on different things on different days but mostly I am 'swimming' and making sure I have a decent hip rotation.  I'm using the pull buoy (ditched the kick board), I've not drowned yet, yay! Also doing some ankle flexibilty in the gym.

Noticed a very fast lady in the pool last night using the buoy between her ankles and knees, what's that all about then?

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Fatpom, #1 tip I had years ago, when swimming as a stationary brick, was to ensure that the hands enter the water wider than you think they need to be.

entering in what felt like, in front of the shoulders, was actually on the centreline or even slightly over the centre line = snaking all over the place.

good drill is the start swimming with what feels like entre at he 9 and 3 o'clock position and then slowly bring them forward until it feel normal. what feel like 11 - 1 o'clock is actually in front of the shoulders, = no snaking = better easier faster swimming.

pretend that you're a surfboard, with a bit of roll. hands enter at 11 & 1, vertical ( or close to it) forearm, pull back in what feels like a straight line, which with the roll will be slightly curved, pull arm from water, repeat, repeat, repeat.

see you at the other end of the pool.

 

p.s. at our age, we willnever become fine technique swimmers... stronger swimmers yes, graceful swimmers, no.

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On 4/27/2017 at 0:04 AM, AVAGO said:

Fatpom, #1 tip I had years ago, when swimming as a stationary brick, was to ensure that the hands enter the water wider than you think they need to be.

entering in what felt like, in front of the shoulders, was actually on the centreline or even slightly over the centre line = snaking all over the place.

good drill is the start swimming with what feels like entre at he 9 and 3 o'clock position and then slowly bring them forward until it feel normal. what feel like 11 - 1 o'clock is actually in front of the shoulders, = no snaking = better easier faster swimming.

pretend that you're a surfboard, with a bit of roll. hands enter at 11 & 1, vertical ( or close to it) forearm, pull back in what feels like a straight line, which with the roll will be slightly curved, pull arm from water, repeat, repeat, repeat.

see you at the other end of the pool.

 

p.s. at our age, we willnever become fine technique swimmers... stronger swimmers yes, graceful swimmers, no.

Thanks Avago, yeah totally agree that I'll never be a fish. Sub 90 mins for 3.8km would be nice these days!

With regards to the wide arms; I remember at AP's clinic years ago that PJ was advocating this at the poolside  (I had a busted up body at the time so couldn't swim). I remember him saying that the arms are rarely as wide as you think they are.

Swimming tonight again, will let you know :)

Edited by FatPom
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On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 6:32 PM, FatPom said:

Noticed a very fast lady in the pool last night using the buoy between her ankles and knees, what's that all about then?

I'll start by saying that I'm not a good swimmer, I've never been coached and I don't know much about technique...

I use the Pool Buoy between my ankles.  I'd like to say that there's too much 'other stuff' between my legs to have it at my crutch but the truth is that I just find it more comfortable between my ankles.  It keeps my feet up and my body more streamlined replicating what it would be like wearing a wetsuit.  I find it helps allow me to rotate from side to side as if I had a skewer through my body from head to feet and I'm just rocking from side to side on it.  Then all I do is just drag my body through the water with my arms.  This accounts for about 50% of my time in the water.

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Have a look at the other lanes while swimming (so you're seeing underwater) and note the body positions of the fast, medium and extremely slow swimmers. One of the main things you will notice is body position. Almost without exception the fasties are horizontal and the slowies angled anywhere up to 45 degrees!

Although there are a number of reasons for this a major one I see is hand/arm entry very flat, or even angling upwards. This just sets you up for pushing straight down on the water which just pushes the front up and legs down in a vicious feedback loop. Try entering/spearing your hand/arm angling downwards in front of you. This helps bring your rear end up and helps sets you up to pull straight back rather than down. This should help get your body more horizontal and decrease the drag considerably. Don't worry about fancy high elbow pull, us numpties struggle with the coordination and flexibilty to do that properly and effectively. For us reducing drag trumps pulling harder.

gw

 

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SWIM

against a clock

at least 3 times a week

try to beat the people in the next lane, if not possible or too easy - change lanes :)

there is no "perfect stroke" unless you have a "perfect physique", but resist the temptation to look where you are going constantly, look at the line under your belly (even let the water wash over your head every now and again, it helps get the legs up.

Too many triathletes have a kick so bad they go faster if they stop! Test this against a clock. The way to learn to kick is with a kick board (they are not just for kiddies) try to kick so that you can keep up with people who are swimming.  

also, there is no perfect breathing pattern, you need oxygen - get as much of it as possible, as efficiently as possible

SWIM more - it is a gross motor skill and takes a lot of time to find your style - think how long it took you to learn top walk (then to run, then to run fast).

Just a few of my thoughts after a long time of doing it.

 

PS: SWIM (lots)

 

 

 

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Thanks all. Just came out of the pool and having a  quiet coffee before the hordes of tourists descend on my fair city! ( it's a bank holiday).

so here's the summary:

I'm now swimming between 2-3 times a week. Keeping my head more still than I was and am trying to keep my arms wide. I'm swimming in a 25mtr pool ( dear god, don't let it be 25 yds , I'm not actually sure) but let's go with 25mtr :whistling:  If I put in an effort, I can hit 24sec for 25mtrs, I can repeat that about 6-8 times in a 40 min session but I can't consistently do it. My regular pace is closer to 30 secs but I can do that for a whole session if I want ( I don't, because I get bored).

Pull buoy is going ok and I use it to get a feel for a how a good body position should feel. I'm doing a lot of the things Gregorywannabee pointed out. I too have noticed the position of others in the slower lanes and  I use the others in the lanes next to me for motivation but still concentrate on what I'm doing.

i've always been able to breathe either side, in fact I find it less natural to breathe one side. I did some laps breathing every stroke today and one thing I noticed was that I don't reach for the bottom of the pool with my left hand anywhere near as much as I do with my right. Could be because my shoulders are knackered but I think it's more natural bias. 

Ive never not been confident in the water, years of surfing has seen to that, also never considered myself ''not a swimmer' but at the same time, the difference in what I do and swimming really well is night and day. I'm not looking to be a fish, that ship has sailed but really appreciate everyone's input.  I'm enjoying the process. B)

Edited by FatPom
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FP, after this mornings swim there's another "gross/large" "error" by us numpties that I meant to mention, leg kick.

You will also notice that most of the fasties have a small amplitude kick with minimal knee bend, the slowies quite often have a large amplitude kick and a knee bend that makes it look like they're riding a bike! :) This creates massive drag.

Don't worry too much about 2-beat, 4-beat, 6-beat, etc. Just let your legs do what they want BUT with a small amplitude kick and minimal knee bend.

gw

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